What questions should I ask a seller before traveling across the country to check out a plane in person?

[MikeOH]

More advice you didn't ask for...I'm going on six years as a first time owner and I've been very happy with my purchase.  But it was an embarrassingly long time (years, I'm afraid) getting there.  It took that long for me to 'get educated' so that I found what I wanted, knew what a  fair price was, and was ready to jump on it.  That last part is critical; I missed a few good planes because I drug my feet. By that I mean waiting a day without committing! Have the cash/financing ready to go.

If I knew then what I know now, I think I would have gone with Jimmy Garrison.  Thing is, I wasn't as smart as you are; I didn't come to MS and ask questions

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

It seems well priced for what it looks like in the photos.  More photos of other side of plane would be great.  Seems to have had a recent(ish) paint job.   Given sellers unwillingness to provide log books, I'd ask for a phone call to discuss its history.  If the seller is unwilling to do that, then walk.  If by phone, I'd be prepared to ask a lot of questions.   Ownership time?  Maintenance history?   How often flown (hours/y) for the past five years?  What year were tanks last re-sealed?  Always hangared?  Major work done in the last 10 years?   If you get a good feeling after that, then pay to go see it.

That's what I'd do.   That relatively low time engine and new(ish) paint job is a big draw.

 

5 hours ago, oisiaa said:

I'm pushing him for logs, but expect to not go through with it. He told me that it's been flying before he acquired it, but I can't find any ADS-B tracks other than the flight to his location and maybe one test flight a few days prior unless ADS-B was only recently installed. 

Before you blow this one off it is worth a call.  They have been around and the owner is probably old school.  Both MooneySpace and BeechTalk have good pireps on the place.  The one on MS is from 2011 and the one on BT is from 2016. (you probably need to join BT to read it)  They are refinishers first and brokers second.  Many planes they buy are run out and they refurb them.  Buyers seem to be happy.

https://pristineairplanes.com/our-refurbishment-process/

This one is a bit different.  The owner that sold it to "Pristine Planes" aka ASI Aircraft Sales Inc, originally purchased it from ASI - Pristine Planes in 2010.  Pristine Planes probably bought it sight unseen since they knew it from before.  Looks like they may have painted it.

The interior and exterior look good.  

The engine hass relatively low hours.

The avionics are not great but it is a workable full IFR platform.  The Century 41 autopilot is by Century Flight Systems which just went out of business. (typical of much that was built into our antique General Aviation aircraft - even if the companies are still in business the wait for parts is generally long)  As long as it works it is excellent - if the auto pilot computer gives you problems, Autopilot's Central in OK is about the only place that will try to work on it - but with no new parts.

https://www.facebook.com/PristineAirplanes/

 

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=119196  (pasted some of the commentary below)

 

 

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First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes

 

Michael Pyle

Post subject: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 13:24

Joined: 11/19/15 Posts: 1336 Post Likes: +1152 Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II

Guys, there was not much info online about Pristine Airplanes aka Aircraft Sales. Which at first worried me but after doing research and dealing with Matt Kozub I understand why there is not much info online. He just takes care of his customers and people rarely take the time to write good reviews. I talked to a couple guys that have bought multiple AC from him and they all had a great experience. You know when there are repeat customers in the Aircraft biz someone is doing something right. So I figured I would share my experience so far and share the rest of the process next week. I know I ended up buying a Piper Saratoga but Matt sells a fair amount of beautiful Beech Aircraft, so this should apply here. I started looking for planes back in September. After an extensive search it became clear that Aircraft sales had a many planes that I was drawn to. I reached out to Matt early November. I had already talked to a few other Aircraft sales guys and was pleasantly surprised with Matt's patience and knowledge. No need to bore you guys with the details but lets just say that Matt has personally spent days, nights, and weekends with me on the phone, text and emails answering all the stupid questions a new plane buyer would ask, and then some. I was having a hard time dialing in on what we wanted. So basically Matt has educated me on and sold me 3 planes in the last couple months. LOL If I was him I would have given up on me long ago and I consider myself a patient sales guy. I can't even begin to explain how far above and beyond Matt has gone. Not only has he helped solve some tough issues on my side but he has done it with an amazing attitude. We just yesterday closed on N8292G and are heading out next week to Ohio to take delivery and bring her to her new home in Provo UT. The team Matt uses is also the best of the best. Michael Smith of Scope Aircraft Finance and the Greg Reba of Reba Aviation insurance were absolute joys to work with and were as knowledgeable and professional as you could ever imagine. Matt is a great and knowledgeable guy and he has surrounded himself with like individuals. There is a lot of power in a team that has experience with each other. I can't imagine how much more work it would have been if I had my own Bank and Insurance guy. But just so you know I am as cheap as they come and if I could have found a better deal I would have gone thru the pain. Fact is I didn't have to because these guys were super competitive. Even though this is my first plane I have bought many custom boats, cars, homes, etc.. so I know how things usually go. This has been the best buying experience I can remember. Looking forward to the trip out to finally fly my own plane. Thanks Matt and Team!!! Mike   Attachments:     Derek Adams  Post subject: Re: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 13:56       Joined: 12/27/11 Posts: 131 Post Likes: +34 Location: Lexington, MA Aircraft: A36TN I can add another positive testimonial for Matt. I bought my A36 through him. He handled the initial airframe buy, the TAT TN add with O2, and the complete redo of the panel as if it was his own aircraft. He was remarkably patient and responsive throughout the process. It was not the cheapest option by far, but I got a like-new aircraft with world class service. Also, he is a hellua nice guy! Derek   Top Mark post as unread     Tony Hale  Post subject: Re: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 13:59       Joined: 05/13/14 Posts: 7995 Post Likes: +6263 Location: Central Texas (KTPL) Aircraft: Malibu (pending) Michael Pyle wrote: 1981 Turbo Saratoga SP Intercooled O hour Engine, and Prop Brand new P&I Air Conditioning Factory Oxygen That's a fantastic airplane! Very nice P&I.   Top Mark post as unread     Steve Chatfield  Post subject: Re: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 14:56       Joined: 03/11/08 Posts: 475 Post Likes: +182 Aircraft: PA28-161 Top Mark post as unread     John Oaks  Post subject: Re: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 17:22       Joined: 09/16/10 Posts: 8818 Post Likes: +1924 Very nice Mike, you must be very happy!  _________________ Education cuts, don't heal.   Top Mark post as unread     Jeff Baxley  Post subject: Re: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 17:32       Joined: 12/29/14 Posts: 8321 Post Likes: +5108 Location: Brunswick, Ga Aircraft: PA32RT-300T Is this the company that buys planes, refurbished them and sells?   Top Mark post as unread     Michael Pyle  Post subject: Re: First plane buying experience from Pristine Airplanes Posted: 11 Feb 2016, 17:57       Joined: 11/19/15 Posts: 1336 Post Likes: +1152 Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II Jeff Baxley wrote: Is this the company that buys planes, refurbished them and sells? Jeff, Yes, they buy older airframes that are ran out and ugly and refurbish them to almost new. IMO its a great way to go. He has a pretty large inventory and can find you what you want. The plane I bought was all original paint and interior and basically at TBO. he got the plane for a pretty good deal then does his magic. He works with some really great shops. Most of the plane arrives fresh and with warranty. Some of the original older equipment that he keeps like Auto Pilot, etc.. is refurbished if needed and kept so it is as is but tested well. You pay more on the acquisition cost but will save in maintenance and operation. I would rather pay more up front and get something that does not have a list of squawks every month and has a warranty. Check them out. http://pristineairplanes.com Mike _________________ InstaGram @Mtpyle company @CenturionLV @eleusisdigitalcanvas race team @strappedracing   Top Mark post as unread

Edited October 25, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[LANCECASPER]

On 10/24/2023 at 9:56 PM, DCarlton said:

This thread is convincing me to get off my ass and spend a half day scanning my logs.  Can’t imagine handing them over to someone else to scan.  The old ones would probably fall apart and be a complete mess when I got them back.  New ones not so hard.  

If you have a smart phone, the easiest way to do it I've found is with an App called Genius Scan. It crops the pictures as you go and speeds up the process greatly over using a flatbed scanner. It converts it to a pdf if you prefer and makes the job very easy. Plus every time there is a new logbook entry it makes it easy to add on a page. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:32 PM, oisiaa said:

The seller doesn't have scans of the logbooks and doesn't seem technically able to provide them. He also said he's too busy to email me a few dozen high quality pictures. I'm a bit put off by that and don't necessarily think he's hiding something. 

I'm going to take a contrary view to what's been said. There are brokers that don't do much other than just shuffle papers and spend time on the phone. They have become good at making money selling something that someone else owns and have adapted to what most people expect. There are a few out there that haven't adapted but are still doing things the way they were expected 15-20 years ago. That doesn't mean that the airplane they are selling isn't worth looking at. It can actually work in your favor since most people aren't used to doing business that way and may disregard the airplane being sold.

Example: in the Fall of 2021 when I was looking, the one-owner airplane I ended up buying was being sold buy a young broker in NJ who has not sold many airplanes and still had a lot to learn, but was a nice guy. He was not fast in getting back to me with answers to questions that I had (although he did get me the logs). He actually talked his client into taking the airplane off of the market for the Fall and Winter and putting it back on in the Spring (Broker 101 - if you want to sell airplanes never talk your client who wants their airplane sold into taking their airplane off the market).

Since I didn't see it being advertised anymore I assumed it was sold since things were selling fast. I was in FL looking at an airplane that wasn't nearly as nice as it sounded, so just out of curiosity I checked FlightAware and saw that the NJ airplane hadn't left its home base so probably hadn't sold. I called the NJ broker and he said it wasn't on the market anymore, so I asked if the owner was still interested in selling it. He said yes it was but they weren't going to advertise it again for a few more months. I asked if I could come and look at it the next day. He said sure. I got out way ticket from FL to NJ rather than coming back to TX. Long story even longer . . . two days later after a buyer-directed pre-buy evaluation with a local mechanic there I flew the airplane home. 

What I learned from that one is that no one was in a hurry to sell that airplane - they knew it would sell and weren't losing any sleep over it. I had to take the initiative to buy it since they weren't taking the initiative to sell it. Even once I was there I wanted to present a fair offer to the owner and ask a few questions and, if satisfied, get the process moving. The young man with whom I was dealing said that he hated to bother the owner and wasn't even sure that he had his cell number, just his home number for the evenings, which would mean that I couldn't get everything done on this trip and would have to make another trip. I went to the waiting area, and in a few minutes found the owner's number called him and worked things out and politely let the young man know that the owner would be calling him in a few minutes. We got the pre-buy started and later the next day the airplane was back in Texas.

If this one is really calling out to you, and you have all your ducks in a row, go see it in person. I have no idea where you are in CA but a one-way ticket from LAX with a couple days notice to Akron is $289. Go in on a Sunday giving you the whole week to get things done and fly it back if you like it. It may be worth it. Worst case scenario, if you don't like it, jump back on the airlines and go home. It will still be education in your airplane-buying process. It may not be all about what he is willing to do, but what you are willing to do outside of the norm.

Edited October 26, 2023 by LANCECASPER

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, Marc_B said:

Every once in a while the right one comes around and those are usually gone before you know it. I’d recommend you get all insurance info, escrow and financing set up, and be ready to move asap when you find a keeper. I found a keeper and that convinced me I was serious and I set up everything including getting money ready to put immediately in escrow for deposit. 

While looking I saw several logs that showed how well (or not) an aircraft was cared for. Log review is invaluable to determine what to expect to find on PPI as well as what’s on horizon for first and future annuals/maintenance. 

But id say have your ducks in a row first, then be ready to move immediately for the right one, but patient and deliberate enough to walk away from red flags…its not just the initial purchase price, but the price of future maintenance as well.

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/aircraft-title-and-escrow-services

I used this service through AOPA for escrow and title service. Very helpful for a first time buyer and AOPA helped with contract offer as well.
 

And if you plan to hangar (you should) get working on that last week! Seems like that’s the hardest thing to find these days. 
 

if you haven’t looked at logs before, find some on Controller or TAP and actually go through them entry by entry. Even better if you get a list of scheduled maintenance (tires, shock disc, magnetos, oxygen tank, etc.). You can quickly begin to see a pattern with maintenance, what’s outstanding and what’s upcoming, as well as getting a feel for how thorough maintenance was…minimum needed vs complete, only at annual vs when needed. 

Agreed.  Have everything in place.  I got my plane because I could close as soon as the pre-buy was done.  Everything set up.  I even had already put money into an escrow account for a deposit.  It was advertised on Monday morning, the next week Friday I owned it.  And having everything allowed me to get the plane even with a slightly higher offer, but not ready to close.

I use Aero Space Reports for escrow, title work and registration.  They are located near the FAA in OK City and walk things through.  They have been SUPER.

For looking at logs, I hired @jetdriven here on MS.  He looked at the logs of several aircraft and I walked away from them.  It was money well spent, and I learned a lot, as it pointed things out and walked me through the issues.

I purchased my plane through Jimmy Garrison also.  But if I were in the market again, I would also touch base with Richard Similie of Thunderbird Aircraft Sales https://thunderbirdaircraft.com/

Hmm, he has a Encore listed right now.

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, oisiaa said:

It seems like me doing even the most basic due diligence was too much for him. He's not even responding to me after pushing for the logs as a "fundamental part of this process"

I think Lance hit on an idea near the bottom of this thread:  If the information you have looks good, additional information you can get from the Internet doesn't contradict. and whatever information you can get on the telephone from the seller doesn't contradict, then go see the airplane.  The expense and hassle of a wasted trip will be buried quickly in the overall financial storm of aircraft ownership.  If it turns out to be a gem, you will be happy you looked at it.  I traveled to two airplanes before I bought mine.  Looking at one "in person" can help educate you.

[Marc_B]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Looking at one "in person" can help educate you.

I think that helps most if you know what you're looking for.  Sure, it shows you aircraft that are a "walk, don't run" category; but when I was starting to look I don't think I was educated at that time to feel comfortable taking cowl off, access panels off, etc.  I found it more informative to see maintenance records/logs as you could easily tell how well (or not) an aircraft was cared for and what was done and what was "due".  But I do agree that if you are familiar with the make and model, familiar with aircraft ownership, and have asked the right questions and gotten favorable responses you don't necessarily need more to move forward and set up offer/contract/PPI.

I think that is why purchasing through a broker makes sense for a lot of people.  I purchased mine through Richard Simile and thought the process was very straightforward.  I think that Mr. Simile advertised the aircraft and minor flaws very honestly and without surprises.  Sounds like others have had similar experiences with Mr. Garrison as well.

[Fly Boomer]

11 minutes ago, Marc_B said:

I think that helps most if you know what you're looking for.  Sure, it shows you aircraft that are a "walk, don't run" category; but when I was starting to look I don't think I was educated at that time to feel comfortable taking cowl off, access panels off, etc.  I found it more informative to see maintenance records/logs as you could easily tell how well (or not) an aircraft was cared for and what was done and what was "due".

I didn't mean to imply that a "look see" could replace examining the logs, but after you have exhausted all other means of information gathering, a face-to-face meeting with the airplane can tell you things that logs and photographs cannot.  It helped me when I was looking.

[Fritz1]

After log review the next step is to purchase FAA file from Aerospace Reports, includes title search, 337s, liens, costs about $100, valuable info, Aerospace reports turns this around in 24h typically, thereafter you get little discount when you use them for an escrow which I recommend, typically it takes thoroughly evaluating a couple of planes to figure what you really want, loosing out on bid or two before you actually close on a bird, needless to say then you also know which plane you should have bought, this is a learning process and the journey is the destination

[Fly Boomer]

25 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

After log review the next step is to purchase FAA file from Aerospace Reports, includes title search, 337s, liens, costs about $100, valuable info, Aerospace reports turns this around in 24h typically, thereafter you get little discount when you use them for an escrow which I recommend, typically it takes thoroughly evaluating a couple of planes to figure what you really want, loosing out on bid or two before you actually close on a bird, needless to say then you also know which plane you should have bought, this is a learning process and the journey is the destination

These days, I think you can get everything the FAA knows about the airplane via the web for free.  I paid Aerospace Reports for the package, but at that time, FAA made you mail in $10.

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

After log review the next step is to purchase FAA file from Aerospace Reports, includes title search, 337s, liens, costs about $100, valuable info,

You can download them for free from the FAA now.   Takes a few minutes.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

You can download them for free from the FAA now.   Takes a few minutes.

Where on the FAA site?

I'm only seeing where they can be purchased on CD or paper. https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Where on the FAA site?

I'm only seeing where they can be purchased on CD or paper. https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/

It requires an authentication service (e.g., MS, Google) when creating an account or logging in, but is free to use.   Under Aircraft Records are quite a few selections and the "fiche" appears under the "Airworthiness" tab. 

https://cares.faa.gov/home

[Larry]

If you still decide to go see this aircraft in person, buy a roundtrip ticket.  Preferably refundable.  It will take pressure, however slight, to buy the plane.

[LANCECASPER]

37 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It requires an authentication service (e.g., MS, Google) when creating an account or logging in, but is free to use.   Under Aircraft Records are quite a few selections and the "fiche" appears under the "Airworthiness" tab. 

https://cares.faa.gov/home

Great, thank you. I'm in.

[RoundTwo]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:54 PM, oisiaa said:

I'm pushing him for logs, but expect to not go through with it. He told me that it's been flying before he acquired it, but I can't find any ADS-B tracks other than the flight to his location and maybe one test flight a few days prior unless ADS-B was only recently installed. 

If you look on flightaware.com, there is a link to purchase entire flight history. If you click on that link, it won’t show you individual flights, but it will show you a breakdown by year of how many flights are recorded. For this plane, you will see that there is data for 23 and for 21, but nothing for 2022. It’s not specific information, but it will give you a rough idea of past history on flight activity.

[Pinecone]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

It requires an authentication service (e.g., MS, Google) when creating an account or logging in, but is free to use.   Under Aircraft Records are quite a few selections and the "fiche" appears under the "Airworthiness" tab. 

https://cares.faa.gov/home

What Airworthiness Tab?  I am not seeing any tabs.

[LANCECASPER]

What Airworthiness Tab?  I am not seeing any tabs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LANCECASPER]

@oisiaa going back to your original question, "What questions should I ask a seller before traveling across the country to check out a plane in person?" - the first question you should be asking yourself is, "Have I decided what my mission is and what model of airplane I'm going to buy?"

A week ago you were ready to do a pre-buy on a K that had sat for years. Now you're ready to buy a J, but wait now maybe you're back to a K. Please pass me a Dramamine - I'm starting to get motion sickness . . lol 

What takes up time for brokers and what may have contributed to the exchange you've experienced with this or other brokers is when they have to deal with people that are tire-kickers and haven't decided yet what they want.

Slow down, take a step back, do the research and firm up what airplane you want first and then start the shopping/negotiating process. It will save you and others a lot of time and energy and won't get you emotionally involved in possibly buying an airplane not suited for your mission that you later regret. Just because you have the funds on hand or the financing in place to buy an airplane doesn't mean that it should be burning a hole in your pocket. There's no rush - none of us on this forum "needs" an airplane - it all has to do with "want".

Once you figure out for sure which model, then write down your wishes for exactly what criteria is important to you for that  airplane  (equipment, condition, etc) - then write down what you could live with. Look over all of the available airplanes on the market (TradeAPlane, Controller, Mooneyspace, etc). Before you make one call, grade all of these airplanes based on the criteria you decided. It will be easy to eliminate some of them based on price, condition, equipment, etc. You may end up with none that met your criteria - that's ok, airplanes come on the market every week. Patience will give you a much better chance at a good result in finding what you're looking for - but you have to decide exactly what that is first.

[gacoon]

Where is it, maybe someone will be close enough to go investigate?

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not getting there.   Here is what I see.  Even though I am logged in, for aircraft registration, it still says Sign In

 

[LANCECASPER]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I am not getting there.   Here is what I see.  Even though I am logged in, for aircraft registration, it still says Sign In

 

Have you set up your authentication yet? I use Google Authenticator on my phone to get the random code I need every time

[Pinecone]

I have a PIV/CAC, so logged in that way.

I will try to set up a normal account.

[Jetpilot86]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:11 AM, LANCECASPER said:

@oisiaa going back to your original question, "What questions should I ask a seller before traveling across the country to check out a plane in person?" - the first question you should be asking yourself is, "Have I decided what my mission is and what model of airplane I'm going to buy?"

A week ago you were ready to do a pre-buy on a K that had sat for years. Now you're ready to buy a J, but wait now maybe you're back to a K. Please pass me a Dramamine - I'm starting to get motion sickness . . lol 

What takes up time for brokers and what may have contributed to the exchange you've experienced with this or other brokers is when they have to deal with people that are tire-kickers and haven't decided yet what they want.

Slow down, take a step back, do the research and firm up what airplane you want first and then start the shopping/negotiating process. It will save you and others a lot of time and energy and won't get you emotionally involved in possibly buying an airplane not suited for your mission that you later regret. Just because you have the funds on hand or the financing in place to buy an airplane doesn't mean that it should be burning a hole in your pocket. There's no rush - none of us on this forum "needs" an airplane - it all has to do with "want".

Once you figure out for sure which model, then write down your wishes for exactly what criteria is important to you for that  airplane  (equipment, condition, etc) - then write down what you could live with. Look over all of the available airplanes on the market (TradeAPlane, Controller, Mooneyspace, etc). Before you make one call, grade all of these airplanes based on the criteria you decided. It will be easy to eliminate some of them based on price, condition, equipment, etc. You may end up with none that met your criteria - that's ok, airplanes come on the market every week. Patience will give you a much better chance at a good result in finding what you're looking for - but you have to decide exactly what that is first.

Going through the process myself now, I'll add that I made up a spreadsheet of all the ones on the market I was interested in and pulled their value from Vref, then calculated their cost based on if the engine was 0 SMOH and had all the stuff I wanted to put in it added in, what my total cost would be.  After wading through roughly two dozen of various makes and models, I could break down a plane in under 15 minutes.  I took a look at 3, one was a Garrison Encore upgrade with a 20 year old damage history, that was complicated, but probably sound.  I called back a few days later after satisfying myself that the DH was probably ok, to find it had landed a full price offer and was in prebuy, and has probably closed by now.  The second was a Bravo that had 2 cylinders replaced within 600 hours, and my prebuy found a 3rd with a burnt exhaust valve within 100 more hours and I walked away from that one.  I finally discovered the one, I'll probably own by Tuesday and was able to move on it very fast because I'd learned so much from what I'd done above.  Like Lance and other's have said.  Do your homework, line up your ducks and be ready to pounce on the one you find that meets your mission requirements.  Once mine is final, I'll give the rest of her story, but from what I'm seeing, I'm quite content with the deal I got.

[rturbett]

Hi- just saw this thread- 

I did see N166X in person a few weeks back. If you are interested, please pm me if I can be of help.

Rob Turbett