Two Pilots Logging PIC

[MooneyMunnerlyn]

Hello,

I have a question regarding two pilots, Pilot A who flies under the hood, and Pilot B who is Safety Pilot. According to the FAA Hicks Letter, Pilot B can be made in charge of safety of flight to log the entire flight as PIC time; but my question is, if Pilot B is 'acting PIC' and Pilot A is the 'sole manipulator of the controls' during the entire flight then is the 0.2 of every flight able to be logged by Pilot A per FAR 61.51? To further clarify, once the hood is taken off for landing or takeoff, but Pilot A is still the sole manipulator of the controls, does this count to log as PIC time? Also, if Pilot B is Safety Pilot and "acting PIC", who logs the X/C time in reference to FAR 61.65(d)?  Thank you!       (The referenced 0.2 being Takeoff and Landing out of a 1.0 total flight time). 

Edited October 16, 2023 by MooneyMunnerlyn

[N201MKTurbo]

Wow, you missed the party the other day. We beat this subject to death.

 

[PeteMc]

As I understand it TECHNICALLY the pilot flying under the Hood can only log the time WHILE HE IS UNDER THE HOOD.  Otherwise there is no need for two crew members for that flight.  Now if you're flying under the Hood and you need to build more time than your Safety PIC, there is nothing to say you can't make them PIC when you go under the hood and take it back when you take the Hood off.  

Again...  You only need two crewmembers in a Mooney when one of you is using a view limiting device. (Yes there could be some Commercial flight that no one would typically do in a Mooney, but it might require two crewmembers.)

[midlifeflyer]

23 hours ago, MooneyMunnerlyn said:

Hello,

I have a question regarding two pilots, Pilot A who flies under the hood, and Pilot B who is Safety Pilot. According to the FAA Hicks Letter, Pilot B can be made in charge of safety of flight to log the entire flight as PIC time; but my question is, if Pilot B is 'acting PIC' and Pilot A is the 'sole manipulator of the controls' during the entire flight then is the 0.2 of every flight able to be logged by Pilot A per FAR 61.51? To further clarify, once the hood is taken off for landing or takeoff, but Pilot A is still the sole manipulator of the controls, does this count to log as PIC time? Also, if Pilot B is Safety Pilot and "acting PIC", who logs the X/C time in reference to FAR 61.65(d)?  Thank you!       (The referenced 0.2 being Takeoff and Landing out of a 1.0 total flight time). 

The basic rules.

Assuming the flying pilot is rated in category and class, the flying pilot may log PIC every second they are the sole manipulator of the controls.

A safety pilot logging anything is limited to the time the flying pilot is under the hood. , 

On the cross country issue, there was a whole series of Chief Counsel letters on this. Only the pilot flying the entire flight, from takeoff to landing may log cross country time. Safety pilots are explicitly excluded.

I have two articles in IFR Magazine discussing this (no paywall), with references.

Logging vs Being PIC
Safety Pilot Rules.

 

[Pinecone]

But the ultimate question is how many pilots may log PIC in the maximum situation.

 

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But the ultimate question is how many pilots may log PIC in the maximum situation.

 

Just two at a time in our Mooneys.

[201er]

17 hours ago, MooneyMunnerlyn said:

Hello,

I have a question regarding two pilots, Pilot A who flies under the hood, and Pilot B who is Safety Pilot. According to the FAA Hicks Letter, Pilot B can be made in charge of safety of flight to log the entire flight as PIC time; but my question is, if Pilot B is 'acting PIC' and Pilot A is the 'sole manipulator of the controls' during the entire flight then is the 0.2 of every flight able to be logged by Pilot A per FAR 61.51? To further clarify, once the hood is taken off for landing or takeoff, but Pilot A is still the sole manipulator of the controls, does this count to log as PIC time? Also, if Pilot B is Safety Pilot and "acting PIC", who logs the X/C time in reference to FAR 61.65(d)?  Thank you!       (The referenced 0.2 being Takeoff and Landing out of a 1.0 total flight time). 

Assuming both pilots are appropriately rated, the one flying logs all the time when under hood and without. The pilot acting as PIC and not handling controls can only log the time the pilot at the controls is under the hood requiring the PIC to act as safety pilot.

Cross country time can only be logged by the sole manipulator of the controls assuming he does all the flying and is appropriately rated. Safety pilot does not log cross country time.

[PeteMc]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

But the ultimate question is how many pilots may log PIC in the maximum situation.

I believe some Regs have changed so this doesn't work anymore, but years ago you could have four.  I'll defer to anyone else that remembers how this worked, but I think it was as simple as: 

1) Pilot manipulating the controls and under the hood...  2) Pilot designated as PIC...  3) CFII giving instruction...   4) ATP because they can/could always log time while on a flight (there may have been more to this one, but there was a way to make it work). 

 

[201er]

22 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

I believe some Regs have changed so this doesn't work anymore, but years ago you could have four.  I'll defer to anyone else that remembers how this worked, but I think it was as simple as: 

1) Pilot manipulating the controls and under the hood...  2) Pilot designated as PIC...  3) CFII giving instruction...   4) ATP because they can/could always log time while on a flight (there may have been more to this one, but there was a way to make it work). 

 

Don’t forget the dog in the baggage compartment 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

I believe some Regs have changed so this doesn't work anymore, but years ago you could have four.  I'll defer to anyone else that remembers how this worked, but I think it was as simple as: 

1) Pilot manipulating the controls and under the hood...  2) Pilot designated as PIC...  3) CFII giving instruction...   4) ATP because they can/could always log time while on a flight (there may have been more to this one, but there was a way to make it work). 

 

The regs never changed. It was always an academic myth (or jailhouse lawyer theory if you prefer)

1) definitely.

2) definitely.

3) myth. 61.195 and 61.109 require dual controls for flight instruction. It was a short step for the Chief Counsel to say this means the CFI must be at a control station. 2018 Williams interpretation.

4) An ATP can always log PIC in "an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate", not on any flight.

The only "new" thing in the group is the interpretation of the regs for #3.. I guess one can still come up with the semantic game of putting the safety pilot/PIC in the back seat and have the CFI be blind  

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

2018 Williams interpretation.

That's what is was.  Not a Reg change but legal interpretation.  And the ATP one I remember they came up with a way as to why you could do it, just don't remember what it was.

[Pinecone]

Hmm, I thought that the Navy and Air Force, in the crew trainers (T-44 and T-1A)  they did flights with two students at the control postions and instructor in the jump seat.  But they are not bound by FARs.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Hmm, I thought that the Navy and Air Force, in the crew trainers (T-44 and T-1A)  they did flights with two students at the control postions and instructor in the jump seat.  But they are not bound by FARs.

They may. I don't know. But ultimately, if they are looking for a civilian job, meeting FAA requirements means logged time per the FARs. I never got into them, but I've seen discussions about converting military time to FAA time and there may even be logbooks which accommodate both. There are also FARs about crediting military ratings directly, such as 61.73. And there's the cross country definition counting 50+ nm flights without a landing toward the ATP.

[Pinecone]

The difference in logged time is FAA counts from first to last movement.  USAF counts take off to touchdown plus 5 minutes (IIRC).

I kept a personal paper logbook when flying in the USAF.  I did a column for taxi time.  That is the difference between the +5 minutes and the actual ground time.  In most cases a tenth or two, but some times it could be more.

[PeteMc]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The difference in logged time is FAA counts from first to last movement.  USAF counts take off to touchdown plus 5 minutes (IIRC).

Even with the differences between the FAA and them military, don't most pilots separate with enough time that it really doesn't matter?  And now days the majors (and minors) are desperate for pilots and I'm sure they'd snag up anyone out of the military. 

I have a friend that got fed up with his corp. job and called one of the Regionals and asked at 56 would they be interested in him with his 1000+ GA time.  They told him they'd take him in an instant.  He started training just as COVID hit and that lost him basically 2 yrs, but now he's a senior First Officer and has no desire to move to Captain with his limited years ahead.  (Lots of Capt. & 1st Ofcrs senior to him moved on to bigger carriers, so he moved up quickly.)

 

[Pinecone]

It is a different world out there now.  When I was in, airline jobs were hard to get.  You needed every tenth you could get.

Now, 1500 hours and you have a pick of several regionals.  A CFI at my field went to a regional and in less than a year is at Spirit.

[Fly Boomer]

37 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

It is a different world out there now.  When I was in, airline jobs were hard to get.  You needed every tenth you could get.

Now, 1500 hours and you have a pick of several regionals.  A CFI at my field went to a regional and in less than a year is at Spirit.

I have been reading for years about the impending professional pilot shortage.  I guess those chickens have come home to roost.  Woman I know who is a left-seat freight dog said she recently had a right-seater with only 500 hours of jet time.

[PeteMc]

7 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

recently had a right-seater with only 500 hours of jet time.

My friend at Republic could I believe could go to the Left Seat with not a whole lot of hours.  But he'd be low on the list and doesn't have that many years to go (age).  So he decided to stay high on the list in the Right Seat.  But to the point.... All the airlines need and are taking a LOT of people without much time.  The big guys are taking from the Regionals and the Regionals are taking pretty much anyone that is calling.  (One good note is that my friend said they were washing people out even though they desperately needed people after COVID.)

 

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Regionals and the Regionals are taking pretty much anyone that is calling.  (One good note is that my friend said they were washing people out even though they desperately needed people after COVID.)

That's good to know.  When I was still traveling all the time, I would go to great lengths to stay away from the regionals.  I think they have pretty good statistics, but I wanted to cut my exposure as much as possible.

[M20F]

On 10/16/2023 at 11:56 AM, Hank said:

Just two at a time in our Mooneys.

I believe 4 is actually the answer assuming 1 is CFI of some type and the other is an ATP and we aren’t limiting to PIC.  There is no requirement for the CFI to be in the front seat and an ATP can log time to teach somebody for the ATP.  

 

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, M20F said:

There is no requirement for the CFI to be in the front seat

Actually the CFI(I) does have to be in one of the front seats.  Back in the day it was unclear, which is how the 4 person logging was justified.  But a few years ago there was an interpretation that said the CFI(I) must be in a "pilot stations" which means one of the two front seats in the majority of (all?) GA planes. 

My understanding is that is not true for Military training, but it is for Civilian/FAA.

 

[mike_elliott]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:14 PM, 201er said:

Don’t forget the dog in the baggage compartment 

What? how come parrots are not allowed to log PIC also?

[wombat]

On 10/18/2023 at 12:49 PM, Fly Boomer said:

That's good to know.  When I was still traveling all the time, I would go to great lengths to stay away from the regionals.  I think they have pretty good statistics, but I wanted to cut my exposure as much as possible.

If you want to reduce your risk, move closer to where you work.

US carriers are incredibly safe; way way safer than the drive to the airport.

[EricJ]

13 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

What? how come parrots are not allowed to log PIC also?

Too many squawks.

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, wombat said:

If you want to reduce your risk, move closer to where you work.

So, move every trip?  Hundreds of cities in the US, and a dozen other countries?