Hangar or no hangar? Big dilemma.

[AndreiC]

Hello fellow Mooney owners,

I am a relatively new Mooniac, having bought my 1970 E-model a few months ago. Before this I owned a 1968 Piper Cherokee for over a decade. With the Cherokee, I kept it tied down outside, with a cockpit cover at a field that is quite close and convenient for me (15 min drive) but where hangars for rent are as rare as hen's teeth. (Morey Airfield in Madison, WI, C29.) The Cherokee did fine outside for 10 years; the only downside was that we were caught once in a hail storm which put some very light dents in the skins. Nothing that would affect airworthiness, and barely noticeable. We have hail storms here every 5-10 years or so, and almost all the planes that are tied out outside at the field have some hail damage from one of them or another, nobody pays much attention to this here. 

Several people were appalled at the thought that I would do the same with a Mooney. One of the reasons I thought it might not be wise to keep it outside is because the aluminum sheet metal is much thinner on a Mooney than on a Cherokee (being a steel tube airframe, rather than monocoque), so hail would damage it worse. Another thought was that the retractable gear is more sensitive to the elements than the bolted legs of the Cherokee.

I started inquiring around, and the best I could find is an airport 40 minutes away. That would add a significant extra amount to each time I fly (about 50 minutes). It would of course be more expensive as well, $250/mo versus $50/mo.

What are people's opinions? Is a hangar a must? Or it would be ok to wait and see, maybe a hangar would open up at my field? Now I am not worried (thunderstorm season is over), but in the summer I feel it would be like waiting for the shoe to drop for a hailstorm to ding my plane badly...

Thanks, Andrei.

[Fly Boomer]

9 minutes ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

Hello fellow Mooney owners,

I am a relatively new Mooniac, having bought my 1970 E-model a few months ago. Before this I owned a 1968 Piper Cherokee for over a decade. With the Cherokee, I kept it tied down outside, with a cockpit cover at a field that is quite close and convenient for me (15 min drive) but where hangars for rent are as rare as hen's teeth. (Morey Airfield in Madison, WI, C29.) The Cherokee did fine outside for 10 years; the only downside was that we were caught once in a hail storm which put some very light dents in the skins. Nothing that would affect airworthiness, and barely noticeable. We have hail storms here every 5-10 years or so, and almost all the planes that are tied out outside at the field have some hail damage from one of them or another, nobody pays much attention to this here. 

Several people were appalled at the thought that I would do the same with a Mooney. One of the reasons I thought it might not be wise to keep it outside is because the aluminum sheet metal is much thinner on a Mooney than on a Cherokee (being a steel tube airframe, rather than monocoque), so hail would damage it worse. Another thought was that the retractable gear is more sensitive to the elements than the bolted legs of the Cherokee.

I started inquiring around, and the best I could find is an airport 40 minutes away. That would add a significant extra amount to each time I fly (about 50 minutes). It would of course be more expensive as well, $250/mo versus $50/mo.

What are people's opinions? Is a hangar a must? Or it would be ok to wait and see, maybe a hangar would open up at my field? Now I am not worried (thunderstorm season is over), but in the summer I feel it would be like waiting for the shoe to drop for a hailstorm to ding my plane badly...

Thanks, Andrei.

Many people do tie down on the ramp, but there is no question it will deteriorate faster.  And hail is just one of a plethora of attackers.  Somewhat depends on what you invest in the airplane, if you want to keep it forever, and what you would like to get back when you sell.

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/29/2023 at 1:07 PM, Andrei Caldararu said:

Hello fellow Mooney owners,

I am a relatively new Mooniac, having bought my 1970 E-model a few months ago. Before this I owned a 1968 Piper Cherokee for over a decade. With the Cherokee, I kept it tied down outside, with a cockpit cover at a field that is quite close and convenient for me (15 min drive) but where hangars for rent are as rare as hen's teeth. (Morey Airfield in Madison, WI, C29.) The Cherokee did fine outside for 10 years; the only downside was that we were caught once in a hail storm which put some very light dents in the skins. Nothing that would affect airworthiness, and barely noticeable. We have hail storms here every 5-10 years or so, and almost all the planes that are tied out outside at the field have some hail damage from one of them or another, nobody pays much attention to this here. 

Several people were appalled at the thought that I would do the same with a Mooney. One of the reasons I thought it might not be wise to keep it outside is because the aluminum sheet metal is much thinner on a Mooney than on a Cherokee (being a steel tube airframe, rather than monocoque), so hail would damage it worse. Another thought was that the retractable gear is more sensitive to the elements than the bolted legs of the Cherokee.

I started inquiring around, and the best I could find is an airport 40 minutes away. That would add a significant extra amount to each time I fly (about 50 minutes). It would of course be more expensive as well, $250/mo versus $50/mo.

What are people's opinions? Is a hangar a must? Or it would be ok to wait and see, maybe a hangar would open up at my field? Now I am not worried (thunderstorm season is over), but in the summer I feel it would be like waiting for the shoe to drop for a hailstorm to ding my plane badly...

Thanks, Andrei.

$250/mo for a hangar is what some people pay for a tie-down - that's a deal. I would do it and keep your name on a hangar wait-list at your home field. As you know, cleaning off your tied-down airplane in the winter in Wisconsin is not fun.

(By the way I wouldn't consider this a big dilemma - you have two options. There are metro areas where there are no tie downs or hangars available.)

[chriscalandro]

It’s not made out of paper. Do what you want based on your needs. If you keep it clean and covered, and overall take care of it you will be fine outside. 

[carusoam]

My M20C lived out doors for decades… a decade while I owned it, in NJ.

 

Andrei,

You must be a young guy…

If you were an old guy… you would have witnessed a brand new car lose it’s paint, and the ceiling fall down on your head… and have the dash board  split across the top… and your thoughts of buying another new car, didn’t happen.

Yet, the $200 lawn mower bought in the 90s… looks and works like it is brand new, after decades in the garage…

 

Being out in the weather is terrible for machines in general.

 

Around here…

There are forever-planes that get treated as if they will last… forever.   They tend to live in hangars.

Then there are the aviation experiments… I’ll buy this plane, and see if aviation is good for me.  They tend to save dough on everything until a forever-plane becomes part of the plan.

 

Real confusion occurs when your experiment goes into the second decade…. Update, or buy a forever plane.

 

 

Soooo… you have a decade of brand P experience already…. A decade outside.

The Mooney is less elements sensitive than brand P…

 

there are good covers available… start there.

And heating systems…

 

 

The M20E makes a great retirement plane… care for it like you will have it deep into retirement.   

 

Once you have to have a hangar…. It is worth the price.

You do have an apartment for your girl friend, don’t you?

Your wife will love the hangar… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Rusty Pilot]

I believe a hangar pays for itself with reduced maintenance costs.  I am in VA and like being able to plug in my block heater and have my Mooney ready to go.  Wisconsin winters are tough.

 

[AndreiC]

I should have been clearer. Most people here addressed the issue of money, which of course matters, though compared to other expenses in aviation $200 extra/month is not going to break the bank. My concern is more about the go/no-go decision to fly when it is a beautiful Saturday afternoon and you feel the sudden urge to go fly for an hour. That unplanned flight, not the trip to a destination 6 hours away that you plan for months. For such flight, if it takes 3 hours versus if it takes 2 can make a difference. This is what concerns me the most. 

But based on what was said above, it seems like most people would still recommend getting the hangar 40 mins away, rather than the tie-down 15 min away. Thanks for the replies. I will be happy if more people chime in.

[carusoam]

Nothing cooler than to walk down stairs to the hangar half of your hangar home…. To check the POH for something, or prep for tomorrow’s flight.

nothing feels worse than getting home and then thinking you left the master switch on or something plugged into the cig liter socket…

nothing more dangerous than driving all the way to the airport and then… waiting out weather…  chances are you will be more ready to launch into something you would prefer not to.

 

For some….  Aviation is a large part of their lifestyle…  Go Hangar!

For others… it’s just another vehicle to be cared for… like a ‘95 Firebird, rusty headlight covers and all…   Go Tie-down!

 

First half economics…

Plenty of time to get things right…

 

Second half economics…

House is paid.

Kids are out of the house.

Excess cash actually exists.

Clock is running down….

 

PP thoughts only, not a sports expert…

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

$250/mo for a hangar is what some people pay for a tie-down - that's a deal. I would do it and keep your name on a hangar wait-list at your home field. As you know, cleaning off your tied-down airplane in the winter in Wisconsin is not fun.

+1 to this. Split the difference. Pay the 250 for a remote hangar while waiting for the local one.  

You might also consider joining the wait list at other nearer airports - slowly reel it in

 

[RoundTwo]

I drive 45 miles/1 hour to the airport where I could get a hangar. It’s a pain, but having the plane out of the elements is important to me.

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

Hello fellow Mooney owners,

I am a relatively new Mooniac, having bought my 1970 E-model a few months ago. Before this I owned a 1968 Piper Cherokee for over a decade. With the Cherokee, I kept it tied down outside, with a cockpit cover at a field that is quite close and convenient for me (15 min drive) but where hangars for rent are as rare as hen's teeth. (Morey Airfield in Madison, WI, C29.) The Cherokee did fine outside for 10 years; the only downside was that we were caught once in a hail storm which put some very light dents in the skins. Nothing that would affect airworthiness, and barely noticeable. We have hail storms here every 5-10 years or so, and almost all the planes that are tied out outside at the field have some hail damage from one of them or another, nobody pays much attention to this here. 

Several people were appalled at the thought that I would do the same with a Mooney. One of the reasons I thought it might not be wise to keep it outside is because the aluminum sheet metal is much thinner on a Mooney than on a Cherokee (being a steel tube airframe, rather than monocoque), so hail would damage it worse. Another thought was that the retractable gear is more sensitive to the elements than the bolted legs of the Cherokee.

I started inquiring around, and the best I could find is an airport 40 minutes away. That would add a significant extra amount to each time I fly (about 50 minutes). It would of course be more expensive as well, $250/mo versus $50/mo.

What are people's opinions? Is a hangar a must? Or it would be ok to wait and see, maybe a hangar would open up at my field? Now I am not worried (thunderstorm season is over), but in the summer I feel it would be like waiting for the shoe to drop for a hailstorm to ding my plane badly...

Thanks, Andrei.

Considering tie-downs, not even hangars, at the closest airport to me (KSNA) are $500 a month, and my hangar is an hour away, I think you should take the $250 and enjoy it!

[hubcap]

Personally, I would not leave my plane tied down on the ramp, but many folks do. I pay $500/month and worth every penny.

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

...My concern is more about the go/no-go decision to fly when it is a beautiful Saturday afternoon and you feel the sudden urge to go fly for an hour. That unplanned flight, not the trip to a destination 6 hours away that you plan for months. For such flight, if it takes 3 hours versus if it takes 2 can make a difference. This is what concerns me the most. ...But based on what was said above, it seems like most people would still recommend getting the hangar 40 mins away, rather than the tie-down 15 min away. Thanks for the replies. I will be happy if more people chime in.

I don't think it is "1 hour" difference.  I believe you have overlooked some of the time that you will save with a hangar.

• You posed it as a 40 min. drive vs a 15 min. drive each way.  That is an extra 25 min. commute each way and only an extra 50 min. commute in total to start with.
• But if you have it tied down, covered, engine plugs, pitot cover it takes some time to remove them and fold it up and stow it somewhere.  And it takes longer to put it all back on - and if the weather changes as you land - i.e. windy or rain starts - it takes even longer.
  • I bet you save at least 15 minutes total - maybe more
• What if it is a beautiful clear winter afternoon in Wisconsin, perhaps hovering around freezing, maybe slightly above? - in the hangar there will be no ice, slush or stubborn ice stuck in the shadows to clean off.
• What if you land after sunset? - you can push it into your lit hangar.  There will be no fumbling around in the dark, losing time trying to put the cover on and tie it down.
• You will have lights, power and supplies handy to check/add air to the tires and check/top off the oil saving time.
• Depending on the airport and policy, you may be able to park closer with the hangar (or in the hangar) and save time.
• In the hangar, there will be less chance of rainwater/slush getting past the fuel caps - hence less time spent sampling/draining accumulated water out of the sumps.
• And there will be less chance of the unforeseen delay - animals in the cowling or making nests in the empennage, cleaning bird crap off the prop or antenna where birds have chosen to perch, etc.  (when I was young my neighbor, who had his Bonanza tied down, had a small animal crawl out the front of the cowling as he revved the engine up for the first start on a cool day. - they lost a lot of time cleaning that mess up)

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

I should have been clearer. Most people here addressed the issue of money, which of course matters, though compared to other expenses in aviation $200 extra/month is not going to break the bank. My concern is more about the go/no-go decision to fly when it is a beautiful Saturday afternoon and you feel the sudden urge to go fly for an hour. That unplanned flight, not the trip to a destination 6 hours away that you plan for months. For such flight, if it takes 3 hours versus if it takes 2 can make a difference. This is what concerns me the most. 

But based on what was said above, it seems like most people would still recommend getting the hangar 40 mins away, rather than the tie-down 15 min away. Thanks for the replies. I will be happy if more people chime in.

Another option is wing covers which are available and help with hail.

[1980Mooney]

20 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Another option is wing covers which are available and help with hail.

Since @Andrei Caldararu is in Wisconsin, here is a Backcountry Pilot pirep on wing covers outdoors.

"Oh boy, been down this road so many times back when we had Winter in SE and no hangar. It’s a real pain in the ass, especially when you need to fly for something other than fun. We had the full on portable garage...windshield, tail, engine, prop...all covered. Piece of cake in cold snowy weather but a nightmare in the wet/freeze/rain conditions. Lots of years that way. Sometimes it was so bad that we would have to go hat - in - hand on bended - knee and ask a neighbor with a hangar for a quick defrost to get them off.

Solid, frozen wing covers are the worst. Get the mesh ones with the spoilers on them as Mike suggested. I think Kennon makes them? When they freeze on its way easier to get them off. We carried a can or two of that windshield de-icer stuff or a small pump sprayer with diluted isopropyl alcohol. Works amazingly well on what’s left, if there is much left. Usually it’s clear enough. When they go back on they may be wet but at least it’s not solid wet like the nylon covers."

and

"Wing covers are usually used to keep frost off the wings. They don’t work well if you leave them on long term through snow/thaw/freeze cycles. If the covers are wet from an above freezing day, you need to take them home and dry them out well. Usually the problem isn’t ice on the wings from frozen covers, it’s trying to tear frozen covers off the wings. If you have lots of ice on them - take them home. Covers should be dry, just shake all the snow off and roll them up, should not get wet at all."

Sounds like they will take more time than the commute to the distant hangar.

Here is a video making them look so easy - it's a high wing but they have 2 people doing it and it is in a hangar - NO WIND.   Geez you don't need them in a hangar.  Let's see real world.  And with a low wing you are crawling around on the ground trying to clip the straps.

 

[AndreiC]

I would never get the wing covers. For me it is a matter of being able to go into the airport and to be in 15 minutes in the air. Land, and 15 minutes later be in the car. Wing covers would obviously add so much time, it's not worth it. 

In the winter I rarely need to go so badly that frost or snow keeps me grounded. I learned to fly in Western MA, at a flying club (Turners Falls, 0B5). People there had a rule -- if you drive around after a snow storm and pass by the airport, stop for 10 minutes and clean the bulk of the snow from the plane. The sun will do the rest soon. Works 95% of the time. Same thing in Wisconsin. After a snowfall I drive to the airport and clean the plane, takes 10 minutes. It's not ready to go then, but next day it is usually good to go. It's amazing how much the sun will melt things even on a day with temps well below freezing.

I agree that not having to tie down and put a cover on will maybe save 5-10 minutes at each end, so the difference is probably not as big as I thought. Thanks @1980Mooney for pointing that out.

[M20F]

This comes up all the time, the ROI on a hanger is negative.  This can be proven with very simple math.  You can repaint the entire airplane every 6 or so years for what a hanger will cost.  Most airplanes get repainted every 15-20yrs thus no issue.  Hail is covered by insurance.   
 
I have often had 2 hangers because I commuted and having tools, spares, etc.  was useful.  I have 1 hanger today.  That though has nothing to do with the airplane. 
 
Hangers are like engine monitors (I have a MVP-50) where people swear without one you will destroy your airplane.  I disagree both with the engine monitor and the hanger portion of this argument (even though I have both). 
 
If you can afford a hanger it is great but not imho necessary.  I find an engine monitor less useful but I had the cash and I like the flashing lights. 
 
With both engine monitors and hangers you will never have a logical conversation.  People will tell you what they “feel” or talk about some very bizarre one off.  For the most part though park it outside and use stock gauges, has worked since the Wright Brothers. 
 
I do like my hanger though, it has a freezer which I keep ice cream in. 

[PT20J]

I owned a ‘78 J for 7 years and it sat outside in San Jose CA 50 minutes from my house. I have owned my current ‘94 J for 5 years and it is in a hangar 15 minutes from my home. I haven’t noticed any difference in maintenance costs. The hangar is nice, but I notice that I fly more when the airplane is closer. I do a lot of my own maintenance, so having a hangar is great for that and a consideration depending on how much work you plan to do yourself.

[MikeOH]

Despite the arguments for having a hangar (which I do) I would simply NOT fly nearly as much if I had to drive 40 minutes each way; simple as that.

I can't begin to describe how lucky I am to be 15 minutes from home to plane, 15 minutes from home to work, AND 15 minutes from work to plane.  I go flying whenever the whim strikes me.

[GeeBee]

The Cherokee does not have a extensively sealed wet wing, wheel wells for birds and mice to nest in nor is the fuel caps flush and totally dependent on O-rings to keep water out. There is a price speed and this is it. 250/month is a steal.

 

[PeteMc]

A lot depends upon your location and the Typical Wx you have.  I kept my plane on the ramp in NY because getting a hangar was nearly impossible and the Wx there was not that bad most of the year. 

I'm now in the PNW and there is a lot more potential for freezing rain sticking to the wings, hail, heavy snow and so it just makes more sense to get a hangar.

 

[kortopates]

I've always kept mine in a hangar. I can tell you too that when I've been a buyer I didn't even consider a Mooney that had been tied down for an extended periods. But that's just me. Some people are worried about damage history, while I am not if its been properly repaired. But accelerated corrosion is a much big concern to me. Of course location matters too.

[hubcap]

For folks who tie down on the ramp, I am curious where you leave your vehicle when you fly on trips that are going to last several days. I just park my vehicle in my hangar and shut the door. That is a convenience that is significant to me as 99% of the time I fly it is at least one night away. 

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, hubcap said:

For folks who tie down on the ramp, I am curious where you leave your vehicle when you fly on trips that are going to last several days.

Right on the ramp.  I thought about getting a cover, but most trips are for a week or so.  Last Oct. we did a X-US trip and the car sat there for basically the whole month.  But in Oct it doesn't get that hot or that cold and there wasn't that much rain, so it was a non issue.  

Usually I pulled up next to my wing and a bit under the high wing parked next to me.  Just in case there was some sort of change or issue when on long trips, I'd pull the plane out and put the car in the middle of my spot.  

 

[wombat]

8 hours ago, hubcap said:

For folks who tie down on the ramp, I am curious where you leave your vehicle when you fly on trips that are going to last several days. I just park my vehicle in my hangar and shut the door. That is a convenience that is significant to me as 99% of the time I fly it is at least one night away. 

I have a tie-down at Boeing Field in Seattle, and a hangar at 'home'.    I usually keep a vehicle in Seattle on my tie-down parking spot when I'm not there that way I don't have to Uber around the city.