hubcap Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 I keep seeing this description used…so what is your definition? Icing? Low ceilings? Convection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.J. Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 Ceiling = or < 500' and/or visibility < 1sm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMooney Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 It's not a legal term. for me it's Low ceilings that approach mins and wide spread, as in will be in it from start to finish, without Icing/thunderstorms. I add the without icing and thunderstorms as i will not fly anywhere near either. Actually as the paint is coming off birdy, it's hard to get me to fly in even mist 8) 1000 ft ceilings are practice days around here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 Opinions vary by airplane and operation, of course. I'm guessing an international 787 captain wouldn't call it "hard IFR" until cat III autoland is required. For me, in piston singles, the distinction is generally whether one actually needs to fly a standard instrument approach to land, vs. simply descending through an overcast on an airway or vector, and being cleared for a visual approach below. If I have to navigate IMC to the FAF, and especially if I'm still in the soup when I get there, I call that "hard IFR". My rationale for this isn't so much how close the conditions are to minimums for the approach. I think of it more in terms of how much VMC time I have to deal with a problem. Imagine you're in the clouds, the engine fails, and you glide down to visual conditions. If you have a couple of minutes to decide where to put it down once you can see, that's not hard IFR. If you only have a couple of seconds, it is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 Nonsensical term. More useful phrase would be "hard IMC" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 I think it varies by person. Low ceilings and vis don’t bother me, but severe bumps and high gusty wind makes me unhappy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201er Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 1 hour ago, hubcap said: I keep seeing this description used…so what is your definition? Icing? Low ceilings? Convection? It’s quite simple really. Hard IFR is when it isn’t easy IFR. What you find easy or hard depends on experience, equipment, and proficiency. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMc Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 Well, what is a "cold day" to you? There is no real definition, but sort of like pornograghy, you'll know it when you see it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201er Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 36 minutes ago, DXB said: Nonsensical term. More useful phrase would be "hard IMC" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbarry Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 Hard IMC to me is departing into IMC at just higher than the minimums to shoot the approach back into the departure field, remaining in IMC for the greater part of the flight and then shooting the approach to near minimums at the arrival field all while listening to ATC giving traffic advisories to aircraft responding “in IMC negative contact.” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted August 6, 2023 Report Share Posted August 6, 2023 10 minutes ago, cbarry said: Hard IMC to me is departing into IMC at just higher than the minimums to shoot the approach back into the departure field, remaining in IMC for the greater part of the flight and then shooting the approach to near minimums at the arrival field all while listening to ATC giving traffic advisories to aircraft responding “in IMC negative contact.” Basically that - IMC that imposes sustained cognitive demand and the plane and pilot better be up to the task - not merely an IFR flight where one is in and out of a few clouds or transitions through a thin layer. People use "hard IFR" to refer to this condition frequently, but it seems to be a bit of a misnomer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 Hard IMC = conditions at or near minimums at departure, en route and destination without divertable VFR. HARD IFR = flying a turbo, piston twin, single pilot in hard IMC. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 19 minutes ago, Shadrach said: HARD IFR = flying a turbo piston twin, single pilot in hard IMC. + without autopilot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 4 hours ago, hubcap said: I keep seeing this description used…so what is your definition? Icing? Low ceilings? Convection? Can’t see anything outside the airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinecone Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 12 hours ago, cbarry said: Hard IMC to me is departing into IMC at just higher than the minimums to shoot the approach back into the departure field, remaining in IMC for the greater part of the flight and then shooting the approach to near minimums at the arrival field all while listening to ATC giving traffic advisories to aircraft responding “in IMC negative contact.” That description is the same as mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 To me Hard means you have IFR and other factors that make it more difficult. Turbulence, potential thunderstorms, potentially icing, night, reported clouds below minimums; all add additional stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 Hard IMC is departure (where you aren’t breaking out right away) or landing close or at minimums (where tops aren’t low). Flying around enroute in the clouds is a non event to me. Taking off through a 500’ layer or landing through one not so much either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 2 hours ago, M20F said: Hard IMC is departure (where you aren’t breaking out right away) or landing close or at minimums (where tops aren’t low). Flying around enroute in the clouds is a non event to me. Taking off through a 500’ layer or landing through one not so much either. Most of my IMC is enroute, often clear at each end. Some of it has been quite hard . . . . Updrafts, downdrafts, general turbulence, sometimes the tail is forced sideways, streaming rain, the yoke jerking in my hands, rain drumming on the cabin and drowning out the radio in my Halo earpieces . . . . Makes climbing through that low layer on takeoff a breeze! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 First off ‘hard “IFR” is different every decade or less and the equipment in your plane I’d think flying without an autopilot, dme, gps and just your good ol’ vor’s is different than todays state of the art avionics along with digital automation and autopilots. if one could combine the worse case scenarios of basic elements weather, equipment difficult and complex weather conditions along with your todays proficiency into one flight you’d think it as hard IFR not even introducing icing or thunderstorms So if 1 the weather is near minimums with significant rain an wind plus 2. Is your equipment state of the art full featured autopilot best glass etc 3 being on top Proficiency most important and 4 How do you feel today SAFE, maybe most important What I’m saying is Hard IFR varies with how we feel, length equipment automation etc. my 2cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 Sounds like the name of an adult film set on a flight deck. I'm skipping the easy puns, but they'd be oh, so easy... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinecone Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 Until I got my 252 I never flew an airplane with a reasonable autopilot. Most of my instrument time was in airplanes without an autopilot at all. Single com, single nav. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted August 7, 2023 Report Share Posted August 7, 2023 For me, it's when I'm flying in turbulence in IMC, a busy controller clears you a waypoint CRZZY, and you can't find CRAZY in the GPS, and they are too busy to ask for phonetic spelling, then then they tell you to descend, my passenger is feeling queezzy- then just as you find CRZZY, they tell you they have a rerouting, notify when ready to copy. In my opinion, the flying isn't the hard part. We practice every approach to minimums. It's all the other stuff happening that sometimes makes single-pilot IFR so difficult. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmonnig Posted August 8, 2023 Report Share Posted August 8, 2023 When the dot is pink on ForeFlight.... and then I'm questioning how current I "really" am hand flying when the shit hits the fan. Anymore I've become much more of a VFR guy. I used to be bold and a lot more comfortable flying IFR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted August 8, 2023 Report Share Posted August 8, 2023 I know it when I see it. "Hard IFR" is like "intuitive" and "obscene." Highly subjective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibra Posted August 8, 2023 Report Share Posted August 8, 2023 C152 flown with conventional single needle in bumpy low IMC conditions, no GPS, no AP add load of crosswind, rain showers with water leaking cockpit…anything else is relatively easy, smooth, or both 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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