My first (and hopefully last) "possible pilot deviation"

[redbaron1982]

Hey, yesterday I did my first "long" XC, from SGR to 50F. Although the day was perfect VFR, I flew IFR just to keep the practice. This was my first solo IFR flight too.

50F is a non-towered airport, with no taxiways, so you need to taxi back to take off. Looking at the info in ForeFlight there is only a phone number to call for clearance. So I called 1825Z, and got a clearance with void time 1830Z, and call no later than 1835Z. I was ready to taxi, so I accept it.

When I approach the runway to taxi back, another airplane was just entering the runway, again to taxi back and then take off. Then a bonanza was in a 4 miles final so I give way to them. At this point, I already knew I was not going to make the 1830Z and even the 1835Z. But I was already with the engine running, making a phone call would imply shutting down the engine so I could hear anything. So I decided to go ahead and taxi back and take off.

I contacted departure at 1841Z, and I got a phone number to copy. When I got back to KSGR I called them and they were super nice, but anyway, I'm not sure how I should have proceeded. If I had a clearance frequency it would be easy just to call them on the radio and let them know. But it doesn't seem to be so easy with a cell phone.

At this point, I think my main take away is not to do IFR from a non-towered airport if not in an actual IMC. Actual IMC would make the airport less busy, and whatever traffic coming in and out would be already under IFR.

But I'd like to know your experience/suggestions.

Thanks!

[N201MKTurbo]

I may have exceeded my clearance void time by 30 seconds a time or two, but if it got more than that, I would have called back. If there was that much VFR traffic, it was obviously VFR, I would have departed VFR and picked up my clearance in the air.

[Marc_B]

Bose/Bluetooth headsets for the win!  I've used my Bluetooth connection for things like this several times.  I also routinely get my clearance through my headset from uncontrolled fields.  Way easier to be accurate in departure time when you're calling from the runup area.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Marc_B said:

Bose Bluetooth headsets for the win!  I've used my Bluetooth connection for things like this several times.  I also routinely get my clearance through my headset from uncontrolled fields.  Way easier to be accurate in departure time when you're calling from the runup area.

I find the Bluetooth on my A20s flakey in conjunction with my iPhone. Some primes they are undiscoverable no matter how I wait. They are the least reliable Bluetooth device I own. 

[Marc_B]

6 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I find the Bluetooth on my A20s flakey in conjunction with my iPhone. Some primes they are undiscoverable no matter how I wait. They are the least reliable Bluetooth device I own.

@Shadrach Interesting. I’ve never had an issue with mine…has this happened to others or perhaps you have a problematic headset that needs to be sent in??

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, Marc_B said:

@Shadrach Interesting. I’ve never had an issue with mine…has this happened to others or perhaps you have a problematic headset that needs to be sent in??

The A20s are probably due to be sent in. In addition to Bluetooth issues, the mic wire has an intermittent short. I have four Bose headsets, one A20 and three Aviation X’s.  I love the comfort and noise canceling but they are not very durable for the cost. For the money, one would think Bose could build wires that don’t short. The 26 year old Flight Com headsets I used for the first five years of flying still look brand new after a much rougher life. All of my X’s have been back for flat rate service. One of them twice.

[WilliamR]

Did the OP actually break any CFRs? Assuming it was VMC and the OP departed maintaining VFR cloud clearance while staying out of controlled airspace, departing and checking in after the clearance void time just means you are flying under VFR, correct? Couldn't approach just say once radar contact is established, "you are cleared as previously cleared"?

How would that be different than just departing VFR and picking up the clearance in the air other than contacting Clearance/Approach twice? If one called at or after the void time from the ground to re-protect the airspace, the "sin" of unnecessarily protecting the airspace from 1830Z to 1835Z had already been committed.

I see no crime here for being 6 min. late. Now, if the airspace was IMC/IFR or entering controlled airspace, way different story.

I don't even think what the OP did was bad form. 

What am I missing?

William

[redbaron1982]

4 minutes ago, WilliamR said:

Did the OP actually break any CFRs? Assuming it was VMC and the OP departed maintaining VFR cloud clearance while staying out of controlled airspace, departing and checking in after the clearance void time just means you are flying under VFR, correct? Couldn't approach just say once radar contact is established, "you are cleared as previously cleared"?

How would that be different than just departing VFR and picking up the clearance in the air other than contacting Clearance/Approach twice? If one called at or after the void time from the ground to re-protect the airspace, the "sin" of unnecessarily protecting the airspace from 1830Z to 1835Z had already been committed.

I see no crime here for being 6 min. late. Now, if the airspace was IMC/IFR or entering controlled airspace, way different story.

I don't even think what the OP did was bad form. 

What am I missing?

William

The problem is that they had the space assigned to me and also they would start a search and rescue because they assume I took off and had an issue.

[PaulM]

Perhaps.. would depend on the squawk code, but they would want to follow up that you were VFR.. 

 

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_2.html

1. If the clearance void time expires, it does not cancel the departure clearance or IFR flight plan. It withdraws the pilot's authority to depart IFR until a new departure release/release time has been issued by ATC and is acknowledged by the pilot.
2. Pilots who depart at or after their clearance void time are not afforded IFR separation and may be in violation of 14 CFR Section 91.173 which requires that pilots receive an appropriate ATC clearance before operating IFR in controlled airspace.
3. Pilots who choose to depart VFR after their clearance void time has expired should not depart using the previously assigned IFR transponder code.

I usually just pick up the IFR in flight because that is what my local ATC prefers, but they will also issue a hold for release and VFR departure because there are never delays in my area.. if They just have too much IFR traffic (Philly area, NYC area) then they may not let you pick up in the air. 

The controllers also have a procedure where you can ask for VFR departure and they will clear you the way they want. 

1. VFR RELEASE OF IFR DEPARTURE

When an aircraft which has filed an IFR flight plan requests a VFR departure through a terminal facility, FSS, ARTCC Flight Data Unit, or air/ground communications station:

1. After obtaining, if necessary, approval from the facility/sector responsible for issuing the IFR clearance, you may authorize an IFR flight planned aircraft to depart VFR. Inform the pilot of the proper frequency and, if appropriate, where or when to contact the facility responsible for issuing the clearance.

PHRASEOLOGY-

VFR DEPARTURE AUTHORIZED. CONTACT (facility) ON (frequency) AT (location or time if required) FOR CLEARANCE.

1. If the facility/sector responsible for issuing the clearance is unable to issue a clearance, inform the pilot, and suggest that the delay be taken on the ground. If the pilot insists upon taking off VFR and obtaining an IFR clearance in the air, inform the facility/sector holding the flight plan of the pilot's intentions and, if possible, the VFR departure time.

[KSMooniac]

I'm based at an uncontrolled muni airport under a Class C for the major airport, so we have an approach control.  If VFR, I always pick up in the air as you never know how long you might have to wait on the ground for a departure window, and I don't want to sit in the #1 position and try to call approach either.  Of course if IMC, I'll call them and as noted, VFR traffic is usually not an issue then.  It seems to work just fine around here, and keeps the traffic flowing.

[GeeBee]

12 minutes ago, WilliamR said:

Did the OP actually break any CFRs? Assuming it was VMC and the OP departed maintaining VFR cloud clearance while staying out of controlled airspace, departing and checking in after the clearance void time just means you are flying under VFR, correct? Couldn't approach just say once radar contact is established, "you are cleared as previously cleared"?

How would that be different than just departing VFR and picking up the clearance in the air other than contacting Clearance/Approach twice? If one called at or after the void time from the ground to re-protect the airspace, the "sin" of unnecessarily protecting the airspace from 1830Z to 1835Z had already been committed.

I see no crime here for being 6 min. late. Now, if the airspace was IMC/IFR or entering controlled airspace, way different story.

I don't even think what the OP did was bad form. 

What am I missing?

William

Yes, he violated his clearance which included a void if not off by time.

Ditto on the Bose headset. Get the second generation which allows the "continuous play" codecs to interface. This means you can play music from your phone as well as use it for voice comm. 

Do not call for clearance until you are at the end of the runway fully ready, run up completed etc. I always do it that way and if there is traffic in the pattern you can ask if they can extend to give you time to meet your void time. I've never had anybody deny me that courtesy and I always make a point to extend it myself. However, if it is screaming VFR, get airborne and call for your clearance. It makes it easier for everyone.

[DXB]

A few related thoughts:

= file the NASA report ASAP - it will get you off the hook in case of an enforcement action since you didn't do anything willful or egregious

- Consider that you have 24 hours to make the call after being given a number- it  provides enough time to consult AOPA pilot protection svcs, aviation lawyer etc. - probably advice most important for the pros but still may be relevant here

- I've had pretty good luck in the past using my iphone with the engine idling to get my release, though it's not fun. Now that I have a Bose A20, I probably should try to get that configured for phone calls by Bluetooth.

- Try to avoid using the cellphone for clearance at a nontowered field whenever possible - make use of RCOs etc.  

- Nontowered plus IFR usually means it's not busy enough to make using the cell phone a problem.

- If its easy VFR and lots of traffic, try to pick up the clearance in the air.  

- The scenario of no cell coverage PLUS no working ground frequency has come up for me in northern Wisconsin once - That particular mVFR departure into hilly terrain had to be planned very carefully, would not care to repeat.

[redbaron1982]

17 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

This is not about your voided release time issue at 50F but I noticed that you filed 155 kts. cruising speed both ways per FlightAware,  

Just eyeballing FlightAware you averaged about 125 kts at 8,000 ft cruise going up and about 150 kts at 9,000 ft. cruise coming back.  That is about an average of 138 kts. cruise.  Since the flights were a few hours and 1,000 ft apart, I assume that there was not a major difference in winds aloft.

You have been posting a lot about performance issues with spark plugs and injectors, idle, mixture, rapid lead fouling vs improper maintenance, mixed injectors, new injectors, etc. which I assume you have since resolved.  Was that round trip flight wide open throttle peak performance - 2,400 or 2,500 rpm?  Or was it Economy cruise - LOP? 

You were never close to your filed cruise speed and 135 kts. seems slow for a J.  Curious if you resolved all your prior posted issues.

I was running 2400PRM WOT, which was around 21inhg.

I am a little bit disappointed with the performance. The engine did run well in the sense it was running smooth, I did a test profile and in flight mag check and it was ok. I had a GAMI Spread of 0.2gph with is very good. I was running ROP, about 100F. My FF was 10GPH at 2400RPM/21INHG. I understand that is ~ 65% power, which should give 155kt, not 140kt.

I do have an MT 3 blades prop and TKS, both penalize a little bit the cruising speed, but I was not expecting to have a 15kt slower speed.

In the flight back it was just me in the airplane, with full tanks.

[ArtVandelay]

25 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I was running 2400PRM WOT, which was around 21inhg.

I am a little bit disappointed with the performance. The engine did run well in the sense it was running smooth, I did a test profile and in flight mag check and it was ok. I had a GAMI Spread of 0.2gph with is very good. I was running ROP, about 100F. My FF was 10GPH at 2400RPM/21INHG. I understand that is ~ 65% power, which should give 155kt, not 140kt.

I do have an MT 3 blades prop and TKS, both penalize a little bit the cruising speed, but I was not expecting to have a 15kt slower speed.

In the flight back it was just me in the airplane, with full tanks.

Check the fuel flow is correct, by filling the tanks and using the totalizer and compare on fill up.  Should be within about a gallon.

The book values are based on certain air temperatures and low humidity. Here in Florida we never see either, so always below book.

[redbaron1982]

28 minutes ago, DXB said:

A few related thoughts:

= file the NASA report ASAP - it will get you off the hook in case of an enforcement action since you didn't do anything willful or egregious

- Consider that you have 24 hours to make the call after being given a number- it  provides enough time to consult AOPA pilot protection svcs, aviation lawyer etc. - probably advice most important for the pros but still may be relevant here

- I've had pretty good luck in the past using my iphone with the engine idling to get my release, though it's not fun. Now that I have a Bose A20, I probably should try to get that configured for phone calls by Bluetooth.

- Try to avoid using the cellphone for clearance at a nontowered field whenever possible - make use of RCOs etc.  

- Nontowered plus IFR usually means it's not busy enough to make using the cell phone a problem.

- If its easy VFR and lots of traffic, try to pick up the clearance in the air.  

- The scenario of no cell coverage PLUS no working ground frequency has come up for me in northern Wisconsin once - That particular mVFR departure into hilly terrain had to be planned very carefully, would not care to repeat.

So I already called them (like 30 minutes after I landed) and the guy who was in the phone seemed to be nice, and was more in the tone of "Hey, next time don't do this". I was relax after the call because I understood that the case was "closed".

Do you guys still think that there could be additional "aftermath"?

[redbaron1982]

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Check the fuel flow is correct, by filling the tanks and using the totalizer and compare on fill up.  Should be within about a gallon.

The book values are based on certain air temperatures and low humidity. Here in Florida we never see either, so always below book.

The fuel flow seems to be working ok. The numbers match with the ticket I get when I fill the tanks.

Yesterday it was a bit hot, at 9kft it was 12C. So density altitude was closer to 11kft.

[ArtVandelay]

4 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

So I already called them (like 30 minutes after I landed) and the guy who was in the phone seemed to be nice, and was more in the tone of "Hey, next time don't do this". I was relax after the call because I understood that the case was "closed".

Do you guys still think that there could be additional "aftermath"?

You’ll likely be contacted by FSDO if they report it, and will need to take some online training courses.

its less about punishment and more about correcting mistakes 

[DXB]

46 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

So I already called them (like 30 minutes after I landed) and the guy who was in the phone seemed to be nice, and was more in the tone of "Hey, next time don't do this". I was relax after the call because I understood that the case was "closed".

Do you guys still think that there could be additional "aftermath"?

It seems most likely to lead to nothing, but the FAA and other bureaucracies do inexplicably capricious things at times - for instance look up the ongoing Trent Palmer saga.  The NASA (ASRS) Report does provide a nice get out of jail free card for one unintentional, non-criminal screw up every five years.  Filing is super easy, can be done within 10 days of the incident, and has no downside at all in your situation:   https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/caveat.html?formType=general   I've probably filed around 3-4 times over the years for my more significant screw ups that ATC brought to my attention, even though I've never been given a number to call.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Yes, he violated his clearance which included a void if not off by time.

Ditto on the Bose headset. Get the second generation which allows the "continuous play" codecs to interface. This means you can play music from your phone as well as use it for voice comm. 

Do not call for clearance until you are at the end of the runway fully ready, run up completed etc. I always do it that way and if there is traffic in the pattern you can ask if they can extend to give you time to meet your void time. I've never had anybody deny me that courtesy and I always make a point to extend it myself. However, if it is screaming VFR, get airborne and call for your clearance. It makes it easier for everyone.

I think the clearance was void at the void time.  The thing he screwed up was squawking his assigned ifr code instead of 1200.  The ifr code was also void at the void time.  If he took off squawking 1200 and contacted them to say he missed the time and had to depart vfr, he would have been ok.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

I think the clearance was void at the void time.  The thing he screwed up was squawking his assigned ifr code instead of 1200.  The ifr code was also void at the void time.  If he took off squawking 1200 and contacted them to say he missed the time and had to depart vfr, he would have been ok.

That but go back and read the OP. He departed not only after the void time, he departed after the "advise intentions time" and that is a 91.123(a) problem, the squawk issue not withstanding. If he had departed after the void time, but contacted them before the advise time saying, "I departed VFR would like to get my clearance" probably would be ok. 

File a NASA report.

 

[jaylw314]

FWIW, I take off from a non-towered airport, and in IMC I always call for my clearance by phone before starting up and ask for 15 minutes.  I do it via my Lightspeed Zulu bluetooth link to my phone, to test its connection.  That's a pretty sedate pace for startup, taxi and runup.  The listed ATC frequency is pretty iffy at the departure end of the runway, so I've had to call at least once to delay my time, and once to move up my time (they said yes to both).  Since I just called them on my phone, I can redial the # pretty easily.  

Edited May 1, 2023 by jaylw314

[GeeBee]

37 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

FWIW, I take off from a non-towered airport, and in IMC I always call for my clearance by phone before starting up and ask for 15 minutes.  I do it via my Lightspeed Zulu bluetooth link to my phone, to test its connection.  That's a pretty sedate pace for startup, taxi and runup.  The listed ATC frequency is pretty iffy at the departure end of the runway, so I've had to call at least once to delay my time, and once to move up my time (they said yes to both).  Since I just called them on my phone, I can redial the # pretty easily.  

They are not going to give you that at my airport. Too busy. You're gumming up the airspace too long. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

They are not going to give you that at my airport. Too busy. You're gumming up the airspace too long. 

I've yet to.be based at a field with "airspace." But the formerly-nearby Delta didn't have a problem when I called on ugly days to ask for departure clearance, only giving me delays when IFR traffic was inbound to them and my initial course would / could conflict; in those cases, I was happy to wait. 

No need for Bluetooth unless you have in-ear headsets, the only downside to QT Halos--just dial the number and shove the phone up under the cup on one ear, you can both hear well and talk. I prefer the side without the radio mic.

[rbp]

8 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

call no later than 1835Z

I'm instrument rated, but I have never gotten anything like this. Just a void time. 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

They are not going to give you that at my airport. Too busy. You're gumming up the airspace too long. 

Just to be clear, I ask for clearance in 15 min, void by 20 min (so 5 minutes of airspace)