Phased In Upgrade of Avionics M20J

[Lax291]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Your quote of $26k for just the GFC500 is way too expensive.

What would you say is a more realistic quote?  This was from Sarasota Avonics and their labor is $125/hr. 

[ArtVandelay]

What would you say is a more realistic quote?  This was from Sarasota Avonics and their labor is $125/hr. 

I had the GFC500 and G3X installed for $30k, but that was before the high inflation kicked in, $100/hr labor rate.

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I believe you can do a slide in replacement of the KMA 24 audio panel with a PS Engineering audio panel.  That’s an extremely cheap upgrade.  
 

as for the rest of the 15k I’d do two GI 275s.  FYI the king radio should be compatible with the HSI, so you could probably get rid of a CDI also your vacuum system if you wanted to.

The only PS Engineering audio panels that are harness compatible with a KMA24 are the 7000 series (https://www.ps-engineering.com/PMA7000_Series.html)

If everything new was in place in the panel that he will eventually want that would sort of work. The connector would come off of the KMA24 and slide onto the PS7000. Two problems with that though: (1) there are two connectors on the back of the 7000 - the other one is for the intercom. He has an older separate mono intercom so the interior would have to come out and all new wires would need to be run if you want stereo, which you do  - that's one of the reasons labor is so high in installing a new audio panel. (2) he doesn't have everything he wants in the panel, so putting the audio panel in now and then re-wiring everything down the road for all the upgrades wouldn't save anything.   

I did a KMA24 replacement with a PS7000 back in 2016 on a Bravo to save some money. It was definitely a regret. The 7000 just doesn't have the features of the 8000 or the  PMA450s. I later thought about upgrading to the 450 but it wouldn't have made sense since in no way was it a slide-in replacement and everything would have had to have been re-pinned. The moral of the story for me is do the audio panel when you do everything else and buy the best one available at the time since the cost difference is not that much on the unit and the labor is the same.

This thread is definitely a reminder that usually the least expensive airplane you'll buy in the long run is the one that has had the upgrades already done on someone else's dime. 

[Lax291]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

The only PS Engineering audio panels that are harness compatible with a KMA24 are the 7000 series (https://www.ps-engineering.com/PMA7000_Series.html)

If everything new was in place in the panel that he will eventually want that would sort of work. The connector would come off of the KMA24 and slide onto the PS7000. Two problems with that though: (1) there are two connectors on the back of the 7000 - the other one is for the intercom. He has an older separate mono intercom so the interior would have to come out and all new wires would need to be run if you want stereo, which you do  - that's one of the reasons labor is so high in installing a new audio panel. (2) he doesn't have everything he wants in the panel, so putting the audio panel in now and then re-wiring everything down the road for all the upgrades wouldn't save anything.   

I did a KMA24 replacement with a PS7000 back in 2016 on a Bravo to save some money. It was definitely a regret. The 7000 just doesn't have the features of the 8000 or the  PMA450s. I later thought about upgrading to the 450 but it wouldn't have made sense since in no way was it a slide-in replacement and everything would have had to have been re-pinned. The moral of the story for me is do the audio panel when you do everything else and buy the best one available at the time since the cost difference is not that much on the unit and the labor is the same.

This thread is definitely a reminder that usually the least expensive airplane you'll buy in the long run is the one that has had the upgrades already done on someone else's dime. 

Any thoughts on the PS Engineering vs Garmin Audio Panel?  With thinking I'll be mostly all Garmin (GI 275, GTN 650xi) the Telligence voice command seems like it would be useful, key word is seems.  Any experience with Telligence and if it's worth staying with a Garmin audio panel?

[Lax291]

2 hours ago, Evan said:

How many hours of labor were they charging you? 

They told me $15K for labor, which translates to 120hrs.

[PT20J]

Someone with Telligence can speak to that, but I have a Garmin Nuvi in the car and it’s voice recognition is terrible (but its pronunciation is often humotous). 

I did an all Garmin panel EXCEPT for the PMA 450B. Garmin has copied the best features of the PMA, but I still think the PMA has a much better user interface. I can figure out features I don’t often use without digging out the manual.

Skip

 

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, donkaye said:

This may seem like heresy, but I think you should borrow the money and do your complete panel upgrade now.  Reason?  I think at least for the next two years, and maybe even longer, we are going to have inflation hitting us in the face.  Once people start accepting the massive price increases, as it seems they have, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.  I think the cost of borrowed money in the long run would be less than the increased cost of the equipment 4-5 years from now.

I think my panel upgrade in today's prices would at least 50% more than it cost me when I did the upgrade years ago.

There is a lot to be said about this path.

Also, interest rates (and inflation) are going up, so you are paying the cheaper money now.

Only issue is, aviation financing will only lend about 50% of the cost of avionics, so you need to do something like a HELOC or personal loan

[PT20J]

Actually, the inflation rate is decreasing because the FED is raising interest rates. The FED’s goal is to get it down from the current mid-6% to a target of 2%. They started out at 7%, so there is a way to go. Rising interest rates make borrowing more expensive which reduces demand for goods, and the reduced demand causes business to cut back production which increases unemployment and that also reduces demand. Decreased corporate growth drives the stock market down and shareholders feel less wealthy and cut back purchases. Reduced demand causes a drop in prices. Or, so the theory goes. The problem is that the theory assumes that people always act rationally, and behavioral economics teaches that they do not.

As Neils Bohr famously said, “Predictions are difficult, especially about the future.”

 

[donkaye]

57 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Actually, the inflation rate is decreasing because the FED is raising interest rates. The FED’s goal is to get it down from the current mid-6% to a target of 2%. They started out at 7%, so there is a way to go. Rising interest rates make borrowing more expensive which reduces demand for goods, and the reduced demand causes business to cut back production which increases unemployment and that also reduces demand. Decreased corporate growth drives the stock market down and shareholders feel less wealthy and cut back purchases. Reduced demand causes a drop in prices. Or, so the theory goes. The problem is that the theory assumes that people always act rationally, and behavioral economics teaches that they do not.

As Neils Bohr famously said, “Predictions are difficult, especially about the future.”

 

GTN 750 in 2013  $14,200  

GTN 750Xi in 2023 $19,695

I rest my case.

 

[gmonnig]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:28 PM, Bryan G said:

Definitely recommend the dual Gi-275s

- 40 hours install, ~$10k parts (dual battery, magnetometer, OAT, etc)

CGR-30P/C combo

-28 hours install, ~$5.6k parts before the awesome Oshkosh rebates

Downtime…December 28th through February 16th. Not for parts…just random sick days and unknown shop delays.

I love the setup, but depending on what your future goal is (and $$)…maybe a single G5 attitude, keep the current AI as a standby, upgrade the monitor to a primary (CGR/JPI/GI), and one day go G3X keeping the G5 for standby/GFC500 autopilot interface.

Looks really good! I think my next move will be the dual EI-CGR combo and have planned on putting them in the exact same spot as yours.  I’m just waiting for something to break first!

[PT20J]

40 minutes ago, donkaye said:

GTN 750 in 2013  $14,200  

GTN 750Xi in 2023 $19,695

I rest my case.

 

But you are comparing a GTN to the much better GTN Xi and you are stating history, not predicting the future. Still that's only about a 4% inflation rate.

Right now, Garmin is selling retrofits like hotcakes. At some point, it will saturate the retrofit market. On the other hand, they have driven out most competition, by excellent products and brilliant marketing moves. Bringing the experimental products to the certified market gave them the centerpiece of the low-cost, fully capable autopilot. So, who knows what a GTN Xi will cost in ten years. But, I agree with you that it will not be less.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

Actually, the inflation rate is decreasing because the FED is raising interest rates. The FED’s goal is to get it down from the current mid-6% to a target of 2%. They started out at 7%, so there is a way to go. Rising interest rates make borrowing more expensive which reduces demand for goods, and the reduced demand causes business to cut back production which increases unemployment and that also reduces demand. Decreased corporate growth drives the stock market down and shareholders feel less wealthy and cut back purchases. Reduced demand causes a drop in prices. Or, so the theory goes. The problem is that the theory assumes that people always act rationally, and behavioral economics teaches that they do not.

As Neils Bohr famously said, “Predictions are difficult, especially about the future.”

 

Sounds like Yogi Berra.

[Lax291]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

GTN 750 in 2013  $14,200  

GTN 750Xi in 2023 $19,695

I rest my case.

 

But couldn't you use the same logic and say one should have purchase a Ford F150 in 2013 because it was $24,600 and in 2023 it's now $34,500?  Price is important, but also the value of the money at that time.

 

Now, a dollar back in 2013 is worth $1.28 in today's dollars.  So that GTN750 in 2013 at $14,200 would be $18,176 in today's dollars which is more in line with current 750xi prices. 

 

I always love thread creep!

[ArtVandelay]

Did this include the yaw dampener, Garmin eis? 

No, neither, the J doesn’t need the yaw damper and I already had a JPI 900 from a previous upgrade.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, Lax291 said:

Any thoughts on the PS Engineering vs Garmin Audio Panel?  With thinking I'll be mostly all Garmin (GI 275, GTN 650xi) the Telligence voice command seems like it would be useful, key word is seems.  Any experience with Telligence and if it's worth staying with a Garmin audio panel?

@donkaye has Telligence in his panel

[Greg Ellis]

6 hours ago, Lax291 said:

They told me $15K for labor, which translates to 120hrs.

That does seem very high.  I just looked at my invoices for my GFC500 install.  For the install itself, labor was 50 hours.  They installed a G5 Attitude indicator and removed my vacuum system for another 10, moved my EDM 900 over to the pilot side, relocated my audio panel installed and new Mid Continent Clock/timer/OAT and fabricated a co-pilots panel to fit the relocated instruments and that was only 20 hours more.  So I got all that for 80 hours labor and they want 120 hours to just put in a GFC 500.  Yep, seems a little high.

[donkaye]

21 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

@donkaye has Telligence in his panel

For what I use it for, it works acceptably.  I need to run the calibration again because when the engine is running in cruise sometimes its results are not correct.  On the ground when switching radios it almost always works properly.  Bottom line, I'm glad to have it.  As an audio panel, I really do like the GMA 35C interface to the GTN 750.

[McMooney]

5 hours ago, gmonnig said:

Looks really good! I think my next move will be the dual EI-CGR combo and have planned on putting them in the exact same spot as yours.  I’m just waiting for something to break first!

this reminds me, anyone know the magic to get the visors to stay up?  mine come loose 5 mins after i tighten them

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, McMooney said:

this reminds me, anyone know the magic to get the visors to stay up?  mine come loose 5 mins after i tighten them

There are screws for that… but sensitive between too tight and too loose… ask Don Muncy… he is the resident expert on all things visor related.

 

Question for @gmonnig…  nice iPad mount location!

Any issue with head clearance…?   I’m tall enough that my head is near the roof… 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[gmonnig]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

There are screws for that… but sensitive between too tight and too loose… ask Don Muncy… he is the resident expert on all things visor related.

 

Question for @gmonnig…  nice iPad mount location!

Any issue with head clearance…?   I’m tall enough that my head is near the roof… 

 

Best regards,

-a-

Only getting in and out because I am not used to it being there. The iPad kind of  follows the slope of the center post so while seated it's not an issue. I am over 6'1" and my seat is normally is the most rear setting or second to last. 

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, gmonnig said:

Only getting in and out because I am not used to it being there. The iPad kind of  follows the slope of the center post so while seated it's not an issue. I am over 6'1" and my seat is normally is the most rear setting or second to last. 

Regarding the iPad location, I'd be afraid of it becoming a detriment to my health in an off field emergency. 

On the CGR-30 combo, be aware that you'll end up with two different data files which makes data analysis a chore. If you have the time and are excel proficient enough, it is actually possible to merge the data into one combined file. But its a lot of work, not something one would do for every flight. I've only seen one client pull off the merge after working on it.   

[Lax291]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:07 AM, Evan said:

Yeah, that is way too high. Mine was half that. 

I reached out to the shop to make sure I had the figures right and they confirmed 120hrs and questioning how it could be done in 50hrs...

[Lax291]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:40 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

I believe you can do a slide in replacement of the KMA 24 audio panel with a PS Engineering audio panel.  That’s an extremely cheap upgrade.  
 

as for the rest of the 15k I’d do two GI 275s.  FYI the king radio should be compatible with the HSI, so you could probably get rid of a CDI also your vacuum system if you wanted to.

$5,600 was what I was quoted for the PMA450C and labor, which I think seems reasonable as I've heard there are a lot of wires to run to move to stereo. 

Almost $19K for the two GI 275s and labor...

 

[ArtVandelay]

Almost $19K for the two GI 275s and labor...

For that much you could get a G3X 10” installed.

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, Lax291 said:

I reached out to the shop to make sure I had the figures right and they confirmed 120hrs and questioning how it could be done in 50hrs...

120 hours is one person working 40 hours a week for 3 weeks. There's no way it takes that long to install a GFC500 unless they are learning on yours.

$5600 for the PMA450C is about 30 hours for labor and $2200 for the audio panel, which is on the high side for the labor but not crazy. 

This is another reason why it's good to know what all you want installed in one shot and then you can compare quotes a lot easier. {Piece by piece it's going to be full pop, but since the whole panel is apart you can definitely save some labor if you do it all at once.)