M20J NLG Repairs & Firewall Sheetmetal

[Futches]

Greetings all - I'm looking at a 1990 M20J MSE with a history of nose landing gear incidents and would welcome some input.  The nose gear has been replaced at least three times over the last ten years or so. The first happened six years ago; it was a full collapse and included a prop strike and engine overhaul, the result of (as it was explained to me) an overly-aggressive attempt to turn on a taxiway.  This one was the most significant, with the engine overhauled by a reputable shop and reinstalled.  (Note that the overhaul work was captured in the engine and prop logs, but I can't find any airframe repairs or the engine r&r mentioned in the airframe logbook except new NLG parts and one gear door).  Yet on the attached PDF are some images of what appear to be three sheet metal repairs where the firewall meets the lower fuselage skin.  I don't know Mooneys as well as I'd like to (yet), but with sheet metal screws holding them in place it just doesn't seem original.  Also noteworthy is the somewhat uneven skin aft of the firewall on both sides of the airplane.  That might be nothing but in the context of the other I thought it worth noting.  Note also that the NLG was replaced again a few years ago (tugging incident) and again within the last six months after yet another tugging incident.  This most recent one resulted in all new NLG parts and gear doors (that's why they look new in the pictures...they are), but still no mention of the sheet metal work on these entries.  Could those be as the aiplace came from the factory?  I should mention the airplane otherwise appears to have been well-maintained, and the current owner (7 years?) does not seem to have had any issues investing in the airplane.  I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

One more thing...the tail skid shows evidence of ground contact.  Scraping and bending.  I've seen scraping on Cherokees (trainers) before, but they tend to be beefier and I've never seen them bent.  This is a view directly up.

Thanks in advance. (The arrows I put into the images are for orientation (White/Red) and to note the questionable areas (Yellow).  The points don't point directly to any exact point, just generally to the area I'm pointing out)

Nose Gear Repair.pdf Tail Skid.pdf

Edited December 13, 2022 by Futches
Clarity

[RoundTwo]

If you’re going through this much hand wringing now, while you’re thinking about buying it, you’re going to be severely limiting the buyer pool for when you want to sell it later. Whenever I am looking to buy something, I always try to look at it as if I’m trying to sell it and think “Will this be a problem when I want to sell it?”. If you’re looking at damage history as a negotiation point, so will other buyers when roles are reversed.

If it were me, I would walk away and find another one that will be easier to sell down the road.

[Guest]

First time seeing a Mooney with the cowls open?  The two exhaust cove fairings and the nose steering cover are completely normal.  The tail tie down is a LASAR version that’s had some ground contact.

[N201MKTurbo]

The two access panels next to the NLG look original. They came from the factory that way. The front parts are SS riveted to the main aluminum parts. From the factory, the two outer screws are sheetmetal screws and the three middle ones are machine screws. The back of the nose wheel well has some extra holes, they come from the factory with tape over them, somebody riveted plates over them, not a bad thing.

[Futches]

Many thanks so far for the (very quick) replies.  To clarify, while I am definitely thinking about the resale pool when it's time to trade up, my biggest question at the moment is whether this is original or not.  If it's original then there's no issue...there are no logbook entries because there shouldn't be.  (The logs are otherwise generally good.)  I'm going to reach out to DMax today, but figured I'd start here.  Thanks again.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

First time seeing a Mooney with the cowls open?  The two exhaust cove fairings and the nose steering cover are completely normal.  The tail tie down is a LASAR version that’s had some ground contact.

I’m with him, Mine seem to be made from O aluminum, meaning they are butter soft, they have no structure to them they are just covers.If not real careful they are easily bent on removal. Being aluminum I don’t think they count as part of the firewall and I don’t know why they are sealed with silicone, mine were too.

It’s what’s under them that could possibly be a concern not the covers, pull them and inspect the tubes underneath, that’s the structure. I bet they are fine, but any evidence of damage is a real concern I think.

I don’t believe there is any documentation of repair to the covers because I don’t see any evidence of repair, the doublers are a repair and they are documented.

You should be looking hard, real hard, but I think you should be concerned more with what’s under the covers, look at structure and look hard for corrosion.

The tailwheel tie down isn’t I don’t think that rare, someone overrotated at some time is all, but again it’s irrelevant, easily replaced if it bothers you but inspect the structure it’s attached to, if it’s damaged it’s a bigger concern.

A 1990 Mooney isn’t an old Mooney, but it’s still a 32 yr old airplane, there will be some imperfections in any average 32 yr old airplane, the ones that look perfect I bet have them under the skin.

I’ve been an A&P / IA for a long time, one thing I tell people over and over is don’t be too concerned with what’s in the book, 90%of the time that was correctly repaired and a correctly done repair is often stronger than original.

Be on the look out for undocumented repairs / alterations, evidence of those is I believe a very good reason to walk away.

But bottom line, if you don’t like what you see badly enough to post about it, it’s likely you wouldn’t be happy with this airplane, besides I think next year maybe later in the year but there will be more for sale and at a better price.

Realize that average Mooney is well over 40 yrs old and whike perfect examples I’m sure exist, but they get rarer every year and should bring a premium when they come up for sale.

 

[KSMooniac]

I don't see any show-stopper either.  The exhaust cavity fairings are complex contours, and soft.  A few decades of use and R&R make them look used.  The sealant is likely to prevent any potential CO from infiltrating the cabin.  I'd still proceed with a thorough pre-purchase inspection with an expert of your choice if you're interested in the plane.

[Guest]

The formed blister is standard depending on model and year.  The wave near the screw is a matter of massaging the edge when the fairing is off.  As noted above some are formed from very soft aluminum, so get deformed during maintenance.

Clarence

[EricJ]

I'll put it this way, if you think that's bad, you're unlikely to find one that you like.    They pretty much all look something like that, and many are worse.

I'd have suggested starting with DMax and then getting internet opinions later.   

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I don't see any show-stopper either.  The exhaust cavity fairings are complex contours, and soft.  A few decades of use and R&R make them look used.  The sealant is likely to prevent any potential CO from infiltrating the cabin.  I'd still proceed with a thorough pre-purchase inspection with an expert of your choice if you're interested in the plane.

 

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I'll put it this way, if you think that's bad, you're unlikely to find one that you like.    They pretty much all look something like that, and many are worse.

I'd have suggested starting with DMax and then getting internet opinions later.   

@Futches I agree.  There are no perfect 30-40 year old J models out there.  They were hand made - even from the factory some things were massaged to look right.  I have original exhaust cavities on my J and they are not perfect.  They are like butter and over the years, even with the best like Rocket Engineering, cause some imperfection when working on them.  Admittedly yours has some spots that are a bit worse but none of that is structurally load bearing and they can be repaired/replaced.

And a history of tug incidents is irrelevant if repaired properly.    Years ago when I purchased a used 1980 J, during the pre-buy the owner commented that the nose gear truss had just been repaired due to a tug over steering accident by the FBO.  I reached up to feel the clean, newly painted truss and it was bent (again).  The owner lost his mind - the same FBO bent the truss within days of the first repair being completed.  They had to repair it again before I took possession.

If that tail tie down bothers you just replace it.  It will be one of the cheapest repairs that you face during your airplane ownership.

Make sure that the important parts of the structure are sound and free of corrosion.  You need to find a plane that is sound and that the price fairly values the condition of the plane that you are considering.  If you want perfect then you will need to pay for "perfect".   

There are some unfortunate topics/threads here currently from more than one owner that bought a J model that they thought was in good condition only to find corrosion after taking ownership.  One has commented that the plane has been in repair for a year and they have yet to fly it.

And don't forget that in the last 2 weeks, three (3) Mooneys have been destroyed - 2 J's and 1 K.  And in the same time 2 more J's have had gear up landings.  The fleet is shrinking.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Guest]

Every airplane has warts, there are very few forty year old virgins or princesses.  

[Futches]

Quick update: inspection of the tail section above the tie down skid shows no evidence of any damage. 

[Guest]

I fail to see where the issue is?  The nose wheel steering cover has a small patch, many do and just as many are crack without a patch and the back bulkhead of the nose wheel well has a few small metal patches that were originally taped closed by Mooney or in most case left open once the tape fell off.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Every airplane has warts, there are very few forty year old virgins or princesses.  

The virgins have flat tires and rusty cylinders 

[hammdo]

So true!

Spinsters!

-Don

[jetdriven]

9 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I don't see any show-stopper either.  The exhaust cavity fairings are complex contours, and soft.  A few decades of use and R&R make them look used.  The sealant is likely to prevent any potential CO from infiltrating the cabin.  I'd still proceed with a thorough pre-purchase inspection with an expert of your choice if you're interested in the plane.

All those photos look pretty normal to me. Those cove fairings are stamped from stainless and they work harden and they get pulled on and tugged on with some hidden screws in them and everything else and some look better than others but anyway. Also, I can’t conceive any scenario where you turn off too fast of the runway and collapse the nose gear. You might do 3 or 4 donuts then run into the ditch and then collapse the gear but you’re not going to collapse the gear with turning loads. It’s built like a shithouse in that area.  Maxwell has photos of an ovation where it snapped the nose gear clean off at the pivot bolts and the plane was straight. You could stuff a new one under there and tow it away. 

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I’m not in the habit of bashing on other people’s Mooneys.  Far from it.  But I’m more than a little surprised at how nonplussed everyone is about this non-repaired damage.  Is it repairable?  Sure.  Will it be cheap?   Nope.  Are better examples available?   Absolutely yes.  The OP is a potential buyer, after all.  Not it’s owner.  What else have it’s previous owners scrimped on?  Is the fleet really this bad already?  If so that is a shame and it’s also a sad commentary on us as owners.  

OK.  Rant off.  I’ve beat on what might eventually be the OP’s Mooney too much already.  At some price this non-repaired damage would certainly not be a show stopper.  

 

12 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

@M20Doc and @jetdriven are professionals and if they say this is typical of the fleet and nothing to worry about you should have great confidence on their opinions, @Futches.  The general condition of my Mooneys have reflected a much higher degree of care and pride in ownership, but my experience is limited to just two Mooneys and both of these gentlemen work on scores of them. 

You are right that there may be some Mooneys in better 'apparent" condition out there  - but at what price vs value?  It seems to me that you are making some assumptions without any information regarding the asking price of this Mooney, the airframe hours, engine time since OH, or prop since OH, avionics package, interior condition, windows, corrosion, options, etc.   And we don't know if the OP is looking for a long term plane or one that he might want or need to sell in a year or two.

As I said if "the price fairly values the condition" then this could be a good deal. . Lot's of variables here. Many/most of the visible" warts" can be addressed when/if the OP ever plans to repaint the plane.  

Of course it could be a bad value also....and harder to sell if he had to flip it short term.  Its all in the details!

[1980Mooney]

21 hours ago, Futches said:

Greetings all - I'm looking at a 1990 M20J MSE with a history of nose landing gear incidents and would welcome some input.  The nose gear has been replaced at least three times over the last ten years or so. The first happened six years ago; it was a full collapse and included a prop strike and engine overhaul, the result of (as it was explained to me) an overly-aggressive attempt to turn on a taxiway.  This one was the most significant, with the engine overhauled by a reputable shop and reinstalled.  (Note that the overhaul work was captured in the engine and prop logs, but I can't find any airframe repairs or the engine r&r mentioned in the airframe logbook except new NLG parts and one gear door).  Yet on the attached PDF are some images of what appear to be three sheet metal repairs where the firewall meets the lower fuselage skin.  I don't know Mooneys as well as I'd like to (yet), but with sheet metal screws holding them in place it just doesn't seem original.  Also noteworthy is the somewhat uneven skin aft of the firewall on both sides of the airplane.  That might be nothing but in the context of the other I thought it worth noting.  Note also that the NLG was replaced again a few years ago (tugging incident) and again within the last six months after yet another tugging incident.  This most recent one resulted in all new NLG parts and gear doors (that's why they look new in the pictures...they are), but still no mention of the sheet metal work on these entries.  Could those be as the aiplace came from the factory?  I should mention the airplane otherwise appears to have been well-maintained, and the current owner (7 years?) does not seem to have had any issues investing in the airplane.  I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

One more thing...the tail skid shows evidence of ground contact.  Scraping and bending.  I've seen scraping on Cherokees (trainers) before, but they tend to be beefier and I've never seen them bent.  This is a view directly up.

Thanks in advance. (The arrows I put into the images are for orientation (White/Red) and to note the questionable areas (Yellow).  The points don't point directly to any exact point, just generally to the area I'm pointing out)

Nose Gear Repair.pdf 1.28 MB · 54 downloads Tail Skid.pdf 133.99 kB · 39 downloads

Try to avoid this - and heed his advice.  Everything appeared to be good about this purchase - bought from a "fellow member on this forum" and prebuy done by a knowledgeable MSC.  WHAT COULD GO WRONG?!

Follow his advice -

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[1980Mooney]

21 hours ago, Futches said:

Greetings all - I'm looking at a 1990 M20J MSE with a history of nose landing gear incidents and would welcome some input.  The nose gear has been replaced at least three times over the last ten years or so. The first happened six years ago; it was a full collapse and included a prop strike and engine overhaul, the result of (as it was explained to me) an overly-aggressive attempt to turn on a taxiway.  This one was the most significant, with the engine overhauled by a reputable shop and reinstalled.  (Note that the overhaul work was captured in the engine and prop logs, but I can't find any airframe repairs or the engine r&r mentioned in the airframe logbook except new NLG parts and one gear door).  Yet on the attached PDF are some images of what appear to be three sheet metal repairs where the firewall meets the lower fuselage skin.  I don't know Mooneys as well as I'd like to (yet), but with sheet metal screws holding them in place it just doesn't seem original.  Also noteworthy is the somewhat uneven skin aft of the firewall on both sides of the airplane.  That might be nothing but in the context of the other I thought it worth noting.  Note also that the NLG was replaced again a few years ago (tugging incident) and again within the last six months after yet another tugging incident.  This most recent one resulted in all new NLG parts and gear doors (that's why they look new in the pictures...they are), but still no mention of the sheet metal work on these entries.  Could those be as the aiplace came from the factory?  I should mention the airplane otherwise appears to have been well-maintained, and the current owner (7 years?) does not seem to have had any issues investing in the airplane.  I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

One more thing...the tail skid shows evidence of ground contact.  Scraping and bending.  I've seen scraping on Cherokees (trainers) before, but they tend to be beefier and I've never seen them bent.  This is a view directly up.

Thanks in advance. (The arrows I put into the images are for orientation (White/Red) and to note the questionable areas (Yellow).  The points don't point directly to any exact point, just generally to the area I'm pointing out)

Nose Gear Repair.pdf 1.28 MB · 55 downloads Tail Skid.pdf 133.99 kB · 39 downloads

Another sad purchase story to heed - just posted.  Corrosion.  Prebuy done by "shop that does mostly Mooney".  WHAT COULD GO WRONG?!

 

[jetdriven]

Get a good prebuy. But only use an MSC. They’re the only ones who know mooneys. 

[redbaron1982]

11 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Get a good prebuy. But only use an MSC. They’re the only ones who know mooneys. 

MSC is not a guarantee of success, my prebuy was done by a MSC and the same shop, 1 week later doing the annual inspection found corrosion on a wing spar and they say "Oh yeah, that's perfectly normal, we don't check for corrosion on prebuys".

If you are in the Massachusetts, stay away of Flight Level Aviation.

And in general, my suggestion is to download the Annual Inspection checklist for your plane, take out all the items that are not actual inspections and ask your shop to do a prebuy with that checklist.

I wonder if someone here has a good prebuy checklist.

[Andy95W]

40 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

MSC is not a guarantee of success, 

I think Byron was probably kidding. He is a long-time Mooney owner and A&P who owns a maintenance shop near DC. I don’t think he is an MSC, but his shop is a great place to take your Mooney. 

[Futches]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

MSC is not a guarantee of success, my prebuy was done by a MSC and the same shop, 1 week later doing the annual inspection found corrosion on a wing spar and they say "Oh yeah, that's perfectly normal, we don't check for corrosion on prebuys".

If you are in the Massachusetts, stay away of Flight Level Aviation.

And in general, my suggestion is to download the Annual Inspection checklist for your plane, take out all the items that are not actual inspections and ask your shop to do a prebuy with that checklist.

I wonder if someone here has a good prebuy checklist.

Thanks @redbaron1982 - I read your entire post and can certainly feel your pain...as much as I hope to avoid it.  The just-completed pre-buy was done at an MSC, and while all good folks, they're not experts on this part of the aircraft (and to their credit, admitted when they didn't know something).  Unfortunately I ended up with more/bigger questions than I began with...this thread is the result. (A previous post suggested start with DMax first next time.  Noted.)

[1980Mooney]

6 minutes ago, Futches said:

Thanks @redbaron1982 - I read your entire post and can certainly feel your pain...as much as I hope to avoid it.  The just-completed pre-buy was done at an MSC, and while all good folks, they're not experts on this part of the aircraft (and to their credit, admitted when they didn't know something).  Unfortunately I ended up with more/bigger questions than I began with...this thread is the result. (A previous post suggested start with DMax first next time.  Noted.)

This MSC actually said they are not experts on "this part of the aircraft" (nose gear repair, firewall and exhaust cove fairings)?  Are you kidding me? - why do they even call themselves an MSC?

 

[Futches]

24 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

This MSC actually said they are not experts on "this part of the aircraft" (nose gear repair, firewall and exhaust cove fairings)?  Are you kidding me? - why do they even call themselves an MSC?

 

I know, right?  There's a complete thread here on what it takes to become/stay an MSC.  Unfortunately hindsight is hindsight.  Often times we don't know what we don't know...until we do.