Flying for your corporate job

[Jerry 5TJ]

21 hours ago, Brandt said:

Check with counsel about adding the company as a named insured on your policy, and ask what liability limits would make them comfortable

Likely issue is that the company will name a liability figure that is unobtainable for a piston single.  

[Brandt]

7 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Likely issue is that the company will name a liability figure that is unobtainable for a piston single.  

Mine didn’t. 

[Rwsavory]

A Texas jury recently awarded $12 million against Raymond James & Co. One of its VP’s was taking clients in his Baron to view property, and he ran out of fuel. This news will certainly make the rounds of HR, in-house counsel and risk management folks around the country. This is a different scenario than that of the OP, but it doesn’t bode well for leniency on company policies in this area.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/jury-awards-12-1-million-to-houston-families-of-those-killed-in-2019-kerrville-plane-crash/ar-AA14YVes?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=3aeb8e4e22784ff2ac8f2c58452c8031

https://texaslawbook.net/jury-awards-families-of-fatal-crash-victims-12-1m/

[FlyingDude]

Way back in 2014, I was at a different company. I took the vp and a foreign visitor to Put In Bay along with weekend sight seeing with other colleagues on rental aircraft… they brought up doing KY trips by plane. We asked hr and the lady inquired with a will-do mindset. Insurance only required an additional pilot in case of PIC incapacitation. Not even a cap on cost. The vp said 2-3 of us not wasting a full day driving through OH was worth the extra charge…

 

[T. Peterson]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:36 PM, midlifeflyer said:

At my last job, no one asked and no one checked. So I flew a few times (there were only a few times the trip justified it) and got reimbursed for the backup refundable commercial airfare.

I like it! 
Easier to get forgiveness than permission! Stay under the radar and don’t make an issue where there isn’t one!

[N201MKTurbo]

When I first started flying, I worked for Raytheon Data Systems, they made the computer terminals for all the airlines. You can see our stuff in the opening scene of the movie Airplane. I traveled all over the place fixing computers. That’s when I bought my first Mooney 1984. The company was cool with me flying and even gave me a letter to that effect, which is how a 27 year old got a loan to buy an airplane. About a year later, they changed their policy. My boss knew the situation, so he said “just get an airline ticket stub and nobody will know. For the next 5 years I flew almost every day. I was working at the airlines and travel agencies. I would have them print a ticket for me, I would take the receipt copy and they would void the ticket. They only had to turn in the flight coupons. 
 

In 1986 my expenses were twice my pay, Raytheon essentially bought the Mooney for me.

The outlying customers loved it. Before I started flying, it would usually be two days after they reported a problem before someone would show up. After I started flying, I would show up the next morning, I might even show up the same day. I covered western Colorado, Wyoming, western South Dakota and western Nebraska out of Denver. I got a lot of mountain flying in my NA  M20F. I was flying about 500 hours a year.

[A64Pilot]

Funny thing is, in the 50’s and 60’s flying for business is why many if not most GA aircraft were sold.

[N201MKTurbo]

I used to go to KRAP a lot to fix stuff for Frontier Airlines. I knew their flight schedule. One day I needed to do some work there so after I landed I told ground I wanted to taxi to gate 3. They said are you sure? And I said I had to do some work there, so they cleared me to gate 3. I taxied up to the jetway and walked up the stairs. The station master, who i knew very well said "You know there is a flight arriving in 45 minutes", I said "I'll be done in 15" He said if not you will have to move. I was done in time an on my way home.

You should have seen the look on the faces of the passengers in the departure lounge when I pulled up!

[hais]

In my company, disallowed business travel includes taking coworkers on a leisurely sightseeing flight. We are also not allowed to combine personal vacation with a work trip even for a portion. 

I was in San Francisco one Sunday for personal day out, and needed to be in LA on Monday for work. I had to fly back 4 hours to CZBB, then drive over to YVR to catch a commercial flight to LAX ... 

Funny thing though, the CEO flies around in a gulf stream.... maybe all that I need to do is to get a mooniac to be in the left seat

[N201MKTurbo]

7 minutes ago, hais said:

In my company, disallowed business travel includes taking coworkers on a leisurely sightseeing flight. We are also not allowed to combine personal vacation with a work trip even for a portion. 

I was in San Francisco one Sunday for personal day out, and needed to be in LA on Monday for work. I had to fly back 4 hours to CZBB, then drive over to YVR to catch a commercial flight to LAX ... 

Funny thing though, the CEO flies around in a gulf stream.... maybe all that I need to do is to get a mooniac to be in the left seat

No, you need to find the rules for the Gulfstream, there may be something in there for you. 

[hais]

I think the difference is that the Gulfstream is not a personal airplane. While I could argue mine is registered under a company, I think the spirit is that part 135 is less risky for the company.

[KLRDMD]

On 12/5/2022 at 3:53 PM, Mike A said:

My company informed me today that I am no longer allowed to use my personal aircraft for corporate travel.

That's one of many reasons that I resigned from a part-time teaching gig at a large well known college in Southern California. After 20 years they said I can't fly myself there any longer. Now, as an employee at a very large hospital that everyone would recognize, the Vice President in my area said I can fly and submit mileage as if I drove. The only down side is I can't rent a car or have an Uber reimbursed at my destination since I should already have a car there. That's a fine trade-off that I'll take any day.

[Pinecone]

53 minutes ago, hais said:

I think the difference is that the Gulfstream is not a personal airplane. While I could argue mine is registered under a company, I think the spirit is that part 135 is less risky for the company.

Gulfstream is probably still Part 91.  Not charter, owned and operated by the company.

 

 

[RobertGary1]

I just claim car mileage. Comes close to covering cost but the difference is not sitting in Bay Area traffic for 3 hours 

[hais]

52 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Gulfstream is probably still Part 91.  Not charter, owned and operated by the company.

 

 

Mhhhh...could be, let me dig deeper to see what the exception is

[Ragsf15e]

37 minutes ago, hais said:

Mhhhh...could be, let me dig deeper to see what the exception is

Yep, that’s how our company does our planes.  Part 91.  If you wanna be fancy (and get an insurance break) you can do different levels of nbaa safety programs.

[Rick Junkin]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:50 PM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Likely issue is that the company will name a liability figure that is unobtainable for a piston single.  

This is exactly what Boeing did to me. In true Boeing passive-aggressive style they wouldn’t directly tell me and other pilots no, they just levied a new requirement for $3M liability that none of us as personal entities were able to get. We had been able to fly with VP approval and $1M liability up to that point. I loved the work, the culture not so much.

Cheers,
Rick

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, hais said:

Mhhhh...could be, let me dig deeper to see what the exception is

Xerox used to run a regularly scheduled "airline" for employees.  It was Part 91.

Part 135 is for when you offer to take people where they want to go for a price.  If the airplane is company owned, pilots company employees, and the passengers company employees, there is no holding out, so Part 91

 

[A64Pilot]

Is Netjets part 135? Normally I would say yes of course, but I think you buy shares so your an owner not a paying passenger?

I don’t really know as I’ve never looked but we have a couple of their pilots in the neighborhood and I’ve heard of the share thing.

Looked it up, they are part 135

Basically part 121 is scheduled airline, 135 is an unscheduled airline, think charter. Nothing to do with size or number of aircraft, there are many single airplane Supercub 135 ops in Alaska

Then there is part 1341/2 which is part 91 operating illegally as part 135. That happens more often than you may think.

134 and a 1/2 is what the Atl FSDO jokingly called it.

[toto]

3 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Is Netjets part 135? Normally I would say yes of course, but I think you buy shares so your an owner not a paying passenger?

I don’t really know as I’ve never looked but we have a couple of their pilots in the neighborhood and I’ve heard of the share thing.

Looked it up, they are part 135

I thought that whole idea with fractional ownership is that it's Part 91. Isn't it Part 91 K?

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, toto said:

I thought that whole idea with fractional ownership is that it's Part 91. Isn't it Part 91 K?

I follow your logic, just never thought about it, that had me thinking, but I think the push back you would get from the FAA didn’t make it worthwhile, so they went 135.

Other than having to write an ops spec manual etc there isn’t I don’t think a downside to 135? May even have insurence break etc?

Never done it so I don’t know.

On edit, maybe they are both?

[Pinecone]

It may be both.

You can get a card from NetJets for so many hours over a certain period.  Or buy a faction of an airplane.

So operations for card holders may be Part 135, but fractional owners operate under Part 91.

[Will.iam]

On 12/11/2022 at 8:07 AM, A64Pilot said:

Is Netjets part 135? Normally I would say yes of course, but I think you buy shares so your an owner not a paying passenger?

I don’t really know as I’ve never looked but we have a couple of their pilots in the neighborhood and I’ve heard of the share thing.

Looked it up, they are part 135

Basically part 121 is scheduled airline, 135 is an unscheduled airline, think charter. Nothing to do with size or number of aircraft, there are many single airplane Supercub 135 ops in Alaska

Then there is part 1341/2 which is part 91 operating illegally as part 135. That happens more often than you may think.

134 and a 1/2 is what the Atl FSDO jokingly called it.

121 subpart s is unscheduled used to fly cargo and passengers under that. A looser set of 121 rules. 

[Schllc]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:43 AM, Pinecone said:

It may be both.

You can get a card from NetJets for so many hours over a certain period.  Or buy a faction of an airplane.

So operations for card holders may be Part 135, but fractional owners operate under Part 91.

Fractional owners who are the only users of the plane can be simply part 91.
If it is “managed” by a company like net jets, where the fractional owners allow the charter company to operate the plane for revenue flights, it can be both a part 91, and a 135, but will have to maintained as a 135 all the time. 
The only difference is when the owners operate the aircraft as solely as 91, they don’t have to have all the same requirements of the 135, like some planes with two pilots, wet runway distance etc. 

It’s extremely convoluted, but it’s a great way for people who can own jets, to offset the cost of ownership.  It is also possible to turn a profit, but that is very rare. 
you could operate any plane on a 135, just plane on 3-4x the insurance cost, about 6-12 months, an unbelievable amount of money for maintenance, just to get the plane on a 135 ticket and then 50 or 100 hour inspections on top of annuals, and an endless list of “timed out” components to continually change. 
 

[Will.iam]

One guy at netjets said if you fly 400 hours or more per year cheaper to own your own jet. Less than 400 cheaper to go with netjets.