Front Seat Removal

[gwav8or]

Had some avionics work done and the shop swapped the pilot/copilot seats. I know they’re the same and can go on either side but now they aren’t rolling forward/backward nearly as well as they did before. I had new seat rollers put in at annual, two months ago and they were rolling very well. Now, I can’t even move the pilot seat while I’m sitting in it.

 

So, I want to remove the seats, clean the rails, swap the seats and maybe lubricate the rails.

 

How difficult is it to remove and reinstall the seats? Any instructions available any where?

 

 

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[N201MKTurbo]

Usually easy, but sometimes not. Just take out the stop pins, then decide weather to undo the front or back first. Sometimes one way is easier, sometimes the other. If you undo the front first you don’t have to fight the pins to get the other end.

There are two ways to go so we need a poll to find out the best way.

[gwav8or]

Forgot to mention, it’s my ‘67 F.


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[0TreeLemur]

The seats in our '67C are not easy to remove.   I always remove the pins, slide them aft, and lift the back to get it out from under the rail.    That's the easy part.    Next, sit in back seat, reach over the seat back, lift the adjustment handle, and slide the seat forward.   The cushion encounters the middle console well before it will come off the rail.  Push like hell with your leg on the lower seat to compress the seat cushion until it is forward enough to come off the rail.   In the case of the co-pilots seat I raise the hydraulic flap handle to get it out of the way.  

Getting them back on is almost impossible with only one person.   With two people it's not too bad to do (a great bit of English there...)   Pilot seat is not too hard because it doesn't seem to have the same interference on the front end as the co-pilot's seat.   When doing the co-pilot's seat, it seems that one person lifting up on the adjustment handle while on the wing, and eye-balling the alignment, with a second person in the back compressing cushion gets it done.  

Maybe your cushions are not as filled as mine.   Maybe that extra 11" of cabin length saves a little.   Dunno.  Good luck.

BTW, with good rollers, you shouldn't need to lubricate the rails.   I installed the Delrin rollers much talked about here on MS, and my seats move great without any lubricant on the rails.  I did lubricate the roller axles.

Not all rollers are created equal.  Some have different diameters, and depending on rail wear, there is not guarantee that they are interchangeable.   BTW, if the swapped the seats, then they swapped the seat belt orientation too.   Seems like a lot of work.  Why not just put them back in the way they came out???

 

 

[gwav8or]

The seats in our '67C are not easy to remove.   I always remove the pins, slide them aft, and lift the back to get it out from under the rail.    That's the easy part.    Next, sit in back seat, reach over the seat back, lift the adjustment handle, and slide the seat forward.   The cushion encounters the middle console well before it will come off the rail.  Push like hell with your leg on the lower seat to compress the seat cushion until it is forward enough to come off the rail.   In the case of the co-pilots seat I raise the hydraulic flap handle to get it out of the way.  
Getting them back on is almost impossible with only one person.   With two people it's not too bad to do (a great bit of English there...)   Pilot seat is not too hard because it doesn't seem to have the same interference on the front end as the co-pilot's seat.   When doing the co-pilot's seat, it seems that one person lifting up on the adjustment handle while on the wing, and eye-balling the alignment, with a second person in the back compressing cushion gets it done.  
Maybe your cushions are not as filled as mine.   Maybe that extra 11" of cabin length saves a little.   Dunno.  Good luck.
BTW, with good rollers, you shouldn't need to lubricate the rails.   I installed the Delrin rollers much talked about here on MS, and my seats move great without any lubricant.
Not all rollers are created equal.  Some have different diameters, and depending on rail wear, there is not guarantee that they are interchangeable.   BTW, if the swapped the seats, then they swapped the seat belt orientation too.   Seems like a lot of work.  Why not just put them back in the way they came out???
 
 

My seats are original and the cushions are rather insignificant. Hopefully that won’t be an issue.

I just want the seats to roll like they did prior to being swapped.


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[N201MKTurbo]

If the seat rails get worn, the bottoms of the seat rail interface thingys on the seat will rub on the bottom surface of the rails even with new rollers. You can replace the rails, which is a PITA and expensive or you can file enough metal off the bottom of the seat rail interface thingy until it doesn’t rub any more. If you wait long enough, nature will take its course and the metal will get warn away anyway.

[Ragsf15e]

59 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

My seats are original and the cushions are rather insignificant. Hopefully that won’t be an issue.

I just want the seats to roll like they did prior to being swapped.


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It’s really easy except when it’s not.  I definitely recommend going back first after pulling the aft pin.  Then forward and off.  
Ive had mine on and off four times.  Three times they came off with minimal blood/cursing.  Three times they went back on ok too.  Once they were pretty much stuck like yours after putting them back on.  Took forever to get them back off, checked, carefully put back and they magically worked.  No idea what had stuck them.

Go slow, be patient, expect a challenge more difficult than it should be (which isn’t much but can be frustrating).  Try not to bleed on your carpet too much.

[Skates97]

On my 1965 D they are pretty easy. Remove the pins, slide all the way forward and lift the front off the rails, and then slide all the way back and lift off. 

[DCarlton]

Good to know that I’m not the only one that wrestles with my seats.  If your seat cushion is a little oversized it could be really tough.  

[carusoam]

I bet they didn’t get replaced on the tracks correctly… steel in direct contact with the aluminum rails….

The wheels probably aren’t on the rails like they are supposed to be…

Something gets in the way of the wheels operating properly…

The front wheels probably look good…  the back wheels probably got left off the rails….

Whoever mixed this up was afraid to ask….   

 

putting the seats back on is a bit of a 3D puzzle…

Many MSers were born with the vision for this kind of stuff…. 
 

Get a close look… you probably can figure it out just by looking…

It is probably a quirky solution like mount the rear of the seats first… on the back of the rail…  then bring the front of the chair to the front of the rail, and put the wheels on rail at the front…

It is easy to make it look right just by taking care of the front wheels…

Unfortunately, it’s been too long since I’ve done this last… it was tough the first time… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Flyman2456]

67F, I remove pins, slide forward lift off, then slide back to remove. Re-install in reverse order. Ive done it by myself a number of times but trickiest part is getting them back on the track and aligned. I have contorted my body in ways I never thought it could move to be able to see the tracks while aligning. 

[BDPetersen]

Glad to see my “C” is not unique. Reinstall copilot seat one of the top 10 worst jobs in aviation. (Buffy dump on Three-holer the worst.)  May try sawzall next time.

[David Lloyd]

Not your answer since my C has later model “articulating seats.  Once the pins are out and the seat is cranked to a high seating position, it can be removed at the rear.  Then crank down to avoid the center console and remove front track.  No amount of effort could remove the seat from the rear if the front was already off the track.  My rear seat backs are difficult to remove, installing requires a blood sacrifice.

[Ragsf15e]

For such a “simple” job, I’ve seen a lot of comments that include blood, cursing and contortion.

[A64Pilot]

Before you pull them, take a flashlight and look at each corner, my bet is one corner has the metal bits that go under the rail on top of it, if so then you only have to slide that end of the seat back or forward enough to put it right.

[gwav8or]

Before you pull them, take a flashlight and look at each corner, my bet is one corner has the metal bits that go under the rail on top of it, if so then you only have to slide that end of the seat back or forward enough to put it right.

This was exactly the problem. The front left bracket on pilot side seat was riding on top of the rail. Removed the cotter pin, slid the seat forward and onto the rail. Easy peasy.

I did find that the goobers also put the rear cotter pin for the front passenger seat, in front of the seat bracket. So, that seat wouldn’t slide forward at all and was free to slide to the rear. Kinda makes me angry. What if I’d had a passenger and the seat slid backwards on take off?


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[carusoam]

16 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

What if I’d had a passenger and the seat slid backwards on take off?


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Let’s say… what would Carusoam be thinking in the moment….
 

1) He would be scared wondering what else will happen next…

2) His passenger may grab the yoke in front of them trying to stabilize their situation…

3) If one seat has gone awry…. It’s possible that another seat may follow….

 

As PIC, we often move our seat to get in and out…

This is the opportunity to check the seat is behaving properly, and know the locking pins are going fully into the holes…

 

There is plenty of Cessna seat rail experience to write a book of regulations….

 

Anything that allows a seat to move on its own… can turn into a death sentence….

 

This is where your interpersonal skills can win you a prize….

Please inform the people that goofed up the seat replacement… how important it is to get it done correctly….
 

And if they didn’t know… this would be a good question to ask…

 

Pilots and mechanics are on the same team….  

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

39 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

This was exactly the problem. The front left bracket on pilot side seat was riding on top of the rail. Removed the cotter pin, slid the seat forward and onto the rail. Easy peasy.

I did find that the goobers also put the rear cotter pin for the front passenger seat, in front of the seat bracket. So, that seat wouldn’t slide forward at all and was free to slide to the rear. Kinda makes me angry. What if I’d had a passenger and the seat slid backwards on take off?


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Reads like these were real competent techs…pinning the passenger seat in front of the rail, and completely missing one rail pilot side.

pisspoor….

[DCarlton]

4 hours ago, gwav8or said:

This was exactly the problem. The front left bracket on pilot side seat was riding on top of the rail. Removed the cotter pin, slid the seat forward and onto the rail. Easy peasy.

I did find that the goobers also put the rear cotter pin for the front passenger seat, in front of the seat bracket. So, that seat wouldn’t slide forward at all and was free to slide to the rear. Kinda makes me angry. What if I’d had a passenger and the seat slid backwards on take off?


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Agree with all the comments.  It’s troubling that the seat wasn’t checked and operated fully after installation.  It’s easy to get one leg off the rails and think it’s installed properly.  But it usually doesn’t slide well… 

[cliffy]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:37 AM, BDPetersen said:

Glad to see my “C” is not unique. Reinstall copilot seat one of the top 10 worst jobs in aviation. (Buffy dump on Three-holer the worst.)  May try sawzall next time.

Two items-   

Blue juice dump on a 3 holer is easy ( have done thousands of them) compared to changing the Cunno filter IN THE TOILET!

 When Continental got their first 747 after a few months on line on take off with the Capt flying his seat motor activated and he rolled back about 4 feet

away from the control wheel. AS he was moving back he told the FO "your airplane"!!!

 

 

[gwav8or]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:40 PM, carusoam said:

 

This is where your interpersonal skills can win you a prize….

Please inform the people that goofed up the seat replacement… how important it is to get it done correctly….
 

And if they didn’t know… this would be a good question to ask…

 

Pilots and mechanics are on the same team….  

Best regards,

-a-

Yep, I let the owner of the shop know this morning.  I had to think and rethink how I "informed"  him of his shop's mistake.  I  was as cordial as I know how to be while getting the point across..... ;-)

[JimB]

On 11/19/2022 at 7:39 PM, gwav8or said:

 I know they’re the same and can go on either side but now they aren’t rolling forward/backward nearly as well as they did before.

 

I honestly don't think they are the same. At least on my 69 F model. The seat back concentric adjustment knob and the seat belt attachment is on the inside. 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, JimB said:

I honestly don't think they are the same. At least on my 69 F model. The seat back concentric adjustment knob and the seat belt attachment is on the inside. 

Put that in the very close category…

The seat belt difference would only be noticeably incorrect when the shoulder strap doesn’t go to the correct side…

 

Some people swap left and right intentionally …. For wear balancing…

Of course, some R&R work of the bits and pieces is required…

Best regards,

-a-