CIRRUS DOWN AT KMYF TODAY

[larrynimmo]

At a previous annual …my Ai had finished inspection of the plane and left it to me to put the covers on….I did my own inspection before replacing the covers….in the tail cone I found one of my universals was missing a pin…if the pin on the other side failed, I would have loss trim control.

my mechanic let’s me do lots of things, but he insisted on himself changing the universal.

every annual I check all universals 

[Browncbr1]

There is a manual trim wheel in the vision jet, which is crazy sensitive.   I’m surprised the sr22 doesn’t have manual trim.  That seems like it should be an obvious certification requirement. 

[philiplane]

The trim in a Cirrus is an electrically driven spring cartridge. It assists the control, it doesn't move a trim tab. And it has a limited range.

So if you should have full trim in any direction, you can still control the plane without any superhuman strength.

Edited November 7, 2022 by philiplane

[DCarlton]

6 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

At a previous annual …my Ai had finished inspection of the plane and left it to me to put the covers on….I did my own inspection before replacing the covers….in the tail cone I found one of my universals was missing a pin…if the pin on the other side failed, I would have loss trim control.

my mechanic let’s me do lots of things, but he insisted on himself changing the universal.

every annual I check all universals 

I've often thought about having a shop remove, clean, prep, and repaint the flight control tubes in the tail section and replace all of those roll pins that hold it all together.  Old small parts make me uncomfortable.  But I have no real basis for my concern other than feeling better about the preventative maintenance.  Any body else overhaul those tubes just because they haven't been touched in decades ? 

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, PT20J said:

Good question. I don't know. I think that stick forces were limited by CAR 3 to 40 lbs from a cruise trimmed condition down to 1.3 Vso and up to Vne. But I don't know that stuck trim was ever a consideration.

Is that because of strength limitations of the control surfaces, or just to ensure that you don't need to be full of muscles to fly the plane?

14 hours ago, Schllc said:

Im sure this was a generalization and not fair to the majority of cirrus pilots and I don’t say this to impugn anyone, merely to point out that there may be a consequence to over reliance on technology. Maybe honing both skills should be a bigger part of the training. 
I have no idea what caused this to happen  to this poor guy, and these comments aren’t really directed to this accident, just a tangent….

I've never seen primary training in a Cirrus.  Do students generally get this focus on the autopilot during their PPL training?

20 hours ago, kortopates said:

Electrical failure, including a broken wire, is a very good possibility. 

I have never given any thought as to where to pull a chute.  But if pattern altitude or close to it will do it and winds aren't too bad there is a lot of open space on the east side of the airport when approaching to land on 27L/R. No good places in SD, but there is a large golf course just east of the airport which would be my next choice. There is also Tierrasanta hills open space  between MYF and Gillespie but that is going to delay recue folks and you could end up in steep terrain causing more injuries.

There's a lot of flat area to the north near Miramar MCAS, if you don't mind the guys with guns... If you do, is that landfill north of the 52 still there? 

To the south, there's always the parking lot for the former Jack Murphy Stadium (is the space called anything now?).   A little further south, Balboa Park is a big green square, and while the western half isn't good, the half east of the highway is Morley Field and the golf course.

On departure, though, it seemed like when I was a kid, a couple times a year somebody crash landed in the parking lot of the Target (while ironic, I think it was a K-Mart back then).  Does that still happen?

18 hours ago, DXB said:

During my one and only Cirrus hour, I thought it mildly odd there was no trim wheel.  That now seems like a terrible idea.  Even modern Airbuses retain manual trim wheels.  How many certified aircraft of any size are there that have trim forces that aren't trivial to overpower but don't have a manual control?

When I first got my C model, it had the Norm Smith STC'd electric trim on it.  At least in my case, you couldn't turn the wheel manually with it installed.  One of the first things I did was to have it taken out.  

No trim wheel does eliminate the additional complexity of running cables and pulleys back to the tail.  IIRC, the RV-10 is designed with one electric trim motor with no manual backup.  I gotta imagine the trim forces are manageable, in the short-term anyway, with runaway trim.  Whether a student pilot would be prepared for that is, sadly, a different question  

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Is that because of strength limitations of the control surfaces, or just to ensure that you don't need to be full of muscles to fly the plane?

I believe all the control force requirements are based on the strength of the average pilot. The Blue Angels install a spring with 40 lbs of down force on the stick. But they work out every day. Try holding 40 lbs pull for a few minutes. 

[jaylw314]

40 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I believe all the control force requirements are based on the strength of the average pilot. The Blue Angles install a spring with 40 lbs of down force on the stick. But they work out every day. Try holding 40 lbs pull for a few minutes. 

I can't tell you how many times I've misspelled the 'Blue Angles" 

All the Blue Angels must be 'men from Brussels' 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I can't tell you how many times I've misspelled the 'Blue Angles" 

All the Blue Angels must be 'men from Brussels' 

Thanks -- fixed it.

[Yetti]

The trim discussion is a good one.   But this kind of looks like a stall spin which is getting too slow and the wacky break on the Cirrus wing.   I really can't believe a Cirrus is a good training aircraft.   The whole stick thing and not being able to see what level yoke is and the propensity to get slow and stall spin.    There were 3 stall spins in a Cirrus around me all with low time or student pilots.

With a student pilot trim is not really muscle memory yet, so could have been pushing up and should have been pushing down.

[PT20J]

I’ve got some Cirrus time. I’d take it over a Mooney for primary training. It’s simpler to operate and has a better cockpit layout. The side stick is no big deal, and actually avoids the negative transference from experience with automobiles. The only ding is the high wing loading.

[Ragsf15e]

I have trained primary students in an SR20, and it’s not terrible (other than being expensive vs a C-172).  We did not do much autopilot work until after solo (around cross country training).  I do think we went through the trim disconnect and some basic AP modes but I don’t remember specifically.

 I didn’t find the stall characteristics detracted from training.  We did do some “full stalls”, but most of the new standards are to first indication.  I do agree it’s less complex to fly and the checklists are much better organized than a Mooney.  
It also works well as an instrument trainer.  50/50 hand flown vs AP works well and students get to learn how to use advanced avionics.  
All in all, I liked it as a primary trainer if money wasn’t an option.  That being said, I also think a C-172 is a great trainer and have recommended them to students who probably had the $$ for the Cirrus.

[DCarlton]

On 11/7/2022 at 9:33 AM, jaylw314 said:

There's a lot of flat area to the north near Miramar MCAS, if you don't mind the guys with guns... If you do, is that landfill north of the 52 still there? 

To the south, there's always the parking lot for the former Jack Murphy Stadium (is the space called anything now?).   A little further south, Balboa Park is a big green square, and while the western half isn't good, the half east of the highway is Morley Field and the golf course.

 

There's also a mile long flat access road on the South side of MCAS near the fence between the dump and the active runways with no vehicle traffic.  

[Ragsf15e]

I’m not sure looking for a “flat” area is really important.  If you need to pull the chute at low altitude (but within the envelope), you just do it.  If you’re at 10k in cruise and lose the engine, sure, glide somewhere “better”.  In a low altitude ejection/chute scenario, you’re usually not too concerned with exactly what’s below you.

[jaylw314]

9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m not sure looking for a “flat” area is really important.  If you need to pull the chute at low altitude (but within the envelope), you just do it.  If you’re at 10k in cruise and lose the engine, sure, glide somewhere “better”.  In a low altitude ejection/chute scenario, you’re usually not too concerned with exactly what’s below you.

I'm guessing @kortopates was thinking more in terms of avoiding populated areas and ease of rescue, since most of the (few) undeveloped areas in San Diego proper are steep canyons or rocky hills.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I’ve got some Cirrus time. I’d take it over a Mooney for primary training. It’s simpler to operate and has a better cockpit layout. The side stick is no big deal, and actually avoids the negative transference from experience with automobiles. The only ding is the high wing loading.

Out of curiosity, how is the trim switch positioned on the stick in the Cirrus?  Is it on top where it can't be accidentally pushed while wrestling with the stick? 

I recall one particularly tense approach where I got slam dunked in IMC with pretty heavy rain.   After some pretty big changes in altitude and speed, The tower asked if I had a hot mic, and I realized every time I tried hitting the trim switch, I was also holding the mic switch because I was so tense.  The brain can do some pretty strange things under stress.

[kortopates]

Although there is a lot of undeveloped land nearby to the north at Miramar, its out of bounds much of the time with Miramar traffic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I just took off from Gillespie to the north with an emergency. IMO Montgomery has enough to pick from around the field when having an emergency in the pattern without needing to go into Miramar's airspace. 

Unfortunately our student pilot, appears to have been so stressed that his only option was to force the landing rathe than abandon the approach and ask for help. Looking at the ADS-B track it looks like the pilot starts off fine reducing power around abeam the number. Its not descending right away but the airspeed bleeds off from max 113 kts at 1300' to a low of 78 kts in the base leg at 1050'. 78 is slow for base and it looks like the pilot responds with adding lots of power at this point while making stressed calls about his trim. Perhaps near full power because shortly the plane has climbed up to 1125' and is now doing 119 kts, and next he's at 132 kts, and holds that speed while now coming down at 875' and then 575' (~200' AGL). Around here is likely where the tower called him to go around offsetting to north but pilot may well have lost control with large pitch changes before stalling out and coming down on the nose.

Unfortunately the freq was pretty busy at this time with both runways. Ironically, one of the tower controllers, whom was a Cirrus CFI, was downstairs on lunch break when this happened. Your guess is as good as mine if the CFI Controller could have helped; but first thing would have been to get the pilot to calm down and go around.

FWIW, I am told by another Cirrus pilot/owner that controlling the aircraft at full max trim is really a non-event for an experienced Cirrus pilot - nothing like a conventional aircraft trim maxed out. He describes it like a 5-10lb dumb bell.

Edited November 8, 2022 by kortopates

[aviatoreb]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:08 PM, carusoam said:

We have seen one run-away trim on an M20K that really was a close call, in cruise descent… nose down… two on board, holding the nose up….

 

 

I don't know of this one - can you link me?

I have my autopilot - auto-trim breaker marked with a breaker colored collar - my only colored breaker.  For quick find if that every would happen - I think it is a legit worry.

Edited November 8, 2022 by aviatoreb

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Out of curiosity, how is the trim switch positioned on the stick in the Cirrus?  Is it on top where it can't be accidentally pushed while wrestling with the stick? 

I recall one particularly tense approach where I got slam dunked in IMC with pretty heavy rain.   After some pretty big changes in altitude and speed, The tower asked if I had a hot mic, and I realized every time I tried hitting the trim switch, I was also holding the mic switch because I was so tense.  The brain can do some pretty strange things under stress.

Yes its on top of the stick yoke. They have pitch and roll trim on the SR22, with optional rudder trim.

[toto]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Out of curiosity, how is the trim switch positioned on the stick in the Cirrus?

It’s one of those little circles that can be moved forward/back/left/right. It’s directly on the top of the side stick. Your left thumb will naturally sit there when you get used to using the electric trim all the time. 

[kortopates]

11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't know of this one - can you link me?

I have my autopilot - auto-trim breaker marked with a breaker colored collar - my only colored breaker.  For quick find if that every would happen - I think it is a legit worry.

I am pretty sure that was Amelia with the stuck/jammed trim; not runway trim. This is the subject of the Mooney SB to change out the hardware so it's jam proof - you can find it on Mooney.com if not familiar. Its been available for many years but Amelia's incident no doubt sold a lot of SB kits including one for myself!

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't know of this one - can you link me?

I have my autopilot - auto-trim breaker marked with a breaker colored collar - my only colored breaker.  For quick find if that every would happen - I think it is a legit worry.

That would have been Mimi's old "Marvin K. Mooney" incident, she and her passenger gave it their all holding the nose up. It spawned an AD that you're probably aware of. Pilot and passenger were OK, Marvin K. not so much--Mimi now has a Screaming Eagle.

[kortopates]

14 minutes ago, Hank said:

That would have been Mimi's old "Marvin K. Mooney" incident, she and her passenger gave it their all holding the nose up. It spawned an AD that you're probably aware of. Pilot and passenger were OK, Marvin K. not so much--Mimi now has a Screaming Eagle.

We're thinking the same incident. But that wasn't the subject of an AD but a SB that had already been out for many years.

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Although there is a lot of undeveloped land nearby to the north at Miramar, its out of bounds much of the time with Miramar traffic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I just took off from Gillespie to the north with an emergency. IMO Montgomery has enough to pick from around the field when having an emergency in the pattern without needing to go into Miramar's airspace. 

Unfortunately our student pilot, appears to have been so stressed that his only option was to force the landing rathe than abandon the approach and ask for help. Looking at the ADS-B track it looks like the pilot starts off fine reducing power around abeam the number. Its not descending right away but the airspeed bleeds off from max 113 kts at 1300' to a low of 78 kts in the base leg at 1050'. 78 is slow for base and it looks like the pilot responds with adding lots of power at this point while making stressed calls about his trim. Perhaps near full power because shortly the plane has climbed up to 1125' and is now doing 119 kts, and next he's at 132 kts, and holds that speed while now coming down at 875' and then 575' (~200' AGL). Around here is likely where the tower called him to go around offsetting to north but pilot may well have lost control with large pitch changes before stalling out and coming down on the nose.

Unfortunately the freq was pretty busy at this time with both runways. Ironically, one of the tower controllers, whom was a Cirrus CFI, was downstairs on lunch break when this happened. Your guess is as good as mine if the CFI Controller could have helped; but first thing would have been to get the pilot to calm down and go around.

FWIW, I am told by another Cirrus pilot/owner that controlling the aircraft at full max trim is really a non-event for an experienced Cirrus pilot - nothing like a conventional aircraft trim maxed out. He describes it like a 5-10lb dumb bell.

I guess we’ll never know if having the CFI there would have made a difference. It certainly seemed to help Maggie to have an excellent controller and CFI there when the wheel fell off her Warrior.

 

[Sue Bon]

32 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I guess we’ll never know if having the CFI there would have made a difference. It certainly seemed to help Maggie to have an excellent controller and CFI there when the wheel fell off her Warrior.

 

Hearing that first "okay" from Maggie brought tears to my eyes.

[Sue Bon]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't know of this one - can you link me?

I have my autopilot - auto-trim breaker marked with a breaker colored collar - my only colored breaker.  For quick find if that every would happen - I think it is a legit worry.

My trim CB is here, next to the yoke. No searching necessary in case of a runaway...