1992 M20J Panel Upgrade / Advice

[gevertex]

Hey All,

   I just closed on my Mooney today! Very excited.  However, there are a few things it needs to be it's best. 

First, I am sending the engine to overhaul with Jewell Aviation. It's going to get the DLC lifters and has the Horsepower Plus STC already installed (not sure if it actually provides much benefit, but now I can get a high performance endorsement ). It does have a dual mag.  I Iooked into an engine swap to get roller tappets + twin mags, but this was roughly 2x the price.  With the DLC lifters not 100% sure this would be worth it medium term.

Second, and more to my question I am planning a full panel replacement. See some of the key parts below.  I am a little concerned about fitting both the 10" and 7" displays.

G3X Touch 10" (GDU 460 landscape display),PMA

G3X Touch 7" (GDU 470 portrait display), PMA GTR 20 Comm, PMA (10W) GNC 255A Nav/Comm (10W) GNX 375 GPS Navigator/ ADS-B Transponder GMA 345 Bluetooth Audio Panel w/Marker Beacon G5 w/Lightning Protection GAP 26 AOA Probe, Self-regulating, PMA GFC500 for Mooney M20 w/ Pitch Trim Everything else is coming out. My questions: 1. Has anyone fit the 10" and 7" displays in an M20J? 2. How easily can the radio stack be moved to the right?  I am thinking something like the attached image.  I attached my old panel also 3. Is there anything structural behind the panel I should be aware of in this kind of arrangement?   I really appreciate any insight of this group.   --George

Edited May 14, 2022 by gevertex
Added info for clarity

[Niko182]

Fly the plane for 100 hours and then do the panel. Youll figure out what you like and you dont like.

[jaylw314]

Welcome on board!  You will find there are many people here who enjoy spending other people's money! 

Not familiar with most of the stuff there, but there's no reason you couldn't move the radios to the right panel, they should be the same basic width and depth as the transponder already there

[gevertex]

44 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Fly the plane for 100 hours and then do the panel. Youll figure out what you like and you dont like.

I'll have the opportunity to fly it for about 50 hours before the avionics shop will be ready.

[gevertex]

34 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Welcome on board!  You will find there are many people here who enjoy spending other people's money! 

Not familiar with most of the stuff there, but there's no reason you couldn't move the radios to the right panel, they should be the same basic width and depth as the transponder already there

Makes sense.  Thanks!

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, gevertex said:

 

 

I don't think you can have, nor would you want,  the autopilot controls that far away from you. 

[PT20J]

The STC requires that the G5 must be within 2" of the primary flight display, so the second G3X would have to go on the right panel.  Because of the way the Mooney panel is mechanically constructed, the radio stack really needs to stay where it is, and you'll find it much more convenient there. Many people that feel the need for a lot of screen space ditch the second G3X and go with a GTN 750Xi which will allow remoting the audio panel and transponder to gain more space in the radio stack. Personally, I like to keep Foreflight running on my iPad on a yoke mount Bluetoothed to the G3X and GTX 345.  That's enough screen space that I'm happy with a GTN 650Xi. Still it was over $80K last year and probably more now.

[gevertex]

22 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The STC requires that the G5 must be within 2" of the primary flight display, so the second G3X would have to go on the right panel.  Because of the way the Mooney panel is mechanically constructed, the radio stack really needs to stay where it is, and you'll find it much more convenient there. Many people that feel the need for a lot of screen space ditch the second G3X and go with a GTN 750Xi which will allow remoting the audio panel and transponder to gain more space in the radio stack. Personally, I like to keep Foreflight running on my iPad on a yoke mount Bluetoothed to the G3X and GTX 345.  That's enough screen space that I'm happy with a GTN 650Xi. Still it was over $80K last year and probably more now.

That explains a lot about why people have the layouts they do. I like your setup. What about fitting the G5 to the left of the g3x? 

[Rmag]

Here is another example with some different Garmin Gear. 

[PT20J]

24 minutes ago, gevertex said:

That explains a lot about why people have the layouts they do. I like your setup. What about fitting the G5 to the left of the g3x? 

It should be possible. The original panel was in four sections and I kept it that way with the new panels. But if you made the entire pilot's panel one piece you should have enough room to do that. Also, you can move the master, alternator, and radio master down below the G3X like @Rmag did to get more room. I didn't do that because I elected to move the alternate static source further to the left. When not in use, I hang my headset on the control column and it used to bang into the alternate static source knob when I moved the elevators during preflight. I wasn't sure there would be enough room for the switches and plumbing so I left the switches where they were. Turns out it would have worked out.

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

I don't think you can have, nor would you want,  the autopilot controls that far away from you. 

Or the GPS, the right stack should be for infrequently user interaction avionics: transponder, audio panel, and engine monitor if you have warning light on the left side.

[KB4]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I don't think you can have, nor would you want,  the autopilot controls that far away from you.

Mount the GFC 507 directly above throttle.  Where mine is, and I love it. Hand sits near there most time anyway. You don’t want to be reaching way over there 

[KB4]

12 hours ago, gevertex said:

Hey All,

   I just closed on my Mooney today! Very excited.  However, there are a few things it needs to be it's best. 

First, I am sending the engine to overhaul with Jewell Aviation. It's going to get the DLC lifters and has the Horsepower Plus STC already installed (not sure if it actually provides much benefit, but now I can get a high performance endorsement ). It does have a dual mag.  I Iooked into an engine swap to get roller tappets + twin mags, but this was roughly 2x the price.  With the DLC lifters not 100% sure this would be worth it medium term.

Second, and more to my question I am planning a full panel replacement. See some of the key parts below.  I am a little concerned about fitting both the 10" and 7" displays.

G3X Touch 10" (GDU 460 landscape display),PMA

G3X Touch 7" (GDU 470 portrait display), PMA GTR 20 Comm, PMA (10W) GNC 255A Nav/Comm (10W) GNX 375 GPS Navigator/ ADS-B Transponder GMA 345 Bluetooth Audio Panel w/Marker Beacon G5 w/Lightning Protection GAP 26 AOA Probe, Self-regulating, PMA GFC500 for Mooney M20 w/ Pitch Trim Everything else is coming out. My questions: 1. Has anyone fit the 10" and 7" displays in an M20J? 2. How easily can the radio stack be moved to the right?  I am thinking something like the attached image.  I attached my old panel also 3. Is there anything structural behind the panel I should be aware of in this kind of arrangement?   I really appreciate any insight of this group.   --George

Move radios to center.  7 in far right slightly angled toward pilot. And remote audio pane—Do it all on G3X 

[gevertex]

9 hours ago, Rmag said:

Here is another example with some different Garmin Gear. 

Love that too. Thanks for the input. 

[gevertex]

28 minutes ago, KB4 said:

Mount the GFC 507 directly above throttle.  Where mine is, and I love it. Hand sits near there most time anyway. You don’t want to be reaching way over there 

Agree with both of you I mostly just shoved instruments on the panel to see if I had enough space dimensionally. I’ll play with it more. 

[gevertex]

A couple people have asked me about the engine. It has ~250 hours SMOH and has a prop strike / airplane totaling accident in its history. The accident was bad enough that the logs from the old airframe (N511G) came with my Mooney. Engine log shows compliance with the AD but not the lycoming SB for prop strikes.

Immediately after OH the engine was involved in an accident while installed in N511G. After removal the engine sat for ~6 years before being installed in my Mooney. My Mooney also sat for about 18 months before I purchased it.
 

All the red flags, but it gets worse which actually made it better for me  

Last annual was reported 78 78 72 78 compressions, no metal in the oil filter.   At the prebuy just 2.4 hours of operation later one cylinder was at 38psi and lots of metal in the filter. I negotiated enough off the purchase price as a result to pay for an overhaul + some contingencies. 
 

In the end the engine is getting an OH at ~250 hours which should take care of any concerns. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by gevertex
Edited for clarity

[PT20J]

It’s easy to get carried away with upgrades. I think it’s best to have an objective in mind and then check each decision against the objective. In my case, I wanted IFR capability with maximum reliability. I was weary of playing whack-a-mole with old avionics. So, for me every piece of equipment had to be necessary because everything you put in the panel will sooner or later act up in some way. Garmin stuff isn’t bullet proof: I’ve had to replace the GTX 345 and G5 on warranty. Garmin has had a lot of GFC 500 servo problems which is one reason I elected not to install the yaw damper. For me it’s not a must have and it’s one more thing to maintain.

There are failure modes of the G3X/G5 combo that could leave me confused about which attitude indicator is lying. All the jets have a backup attitude indicator, so I added the inexpensive AV-20-S as a tie breaker.

There are good arguments for a GNC 355 as the second radio given that GPS is the primary navigation mode now. However, the G3X has a GPS that could be used in a pinch and I decided that the GNC 255 was all I needed and I was running out of real estate for antennas.

Skip

[hubcap]

I am upgrading my panel this fall to include a 10” and a 7” G3X. My layout will have the widescreen on the pilot side of the radio stack and the narrow screen on the right side of the radio stack. I will have a GTN650 and a GNC 355 in the stack. My G5 and JPI 900 will be in the center just to the left of the radios.

[rbp]

The question you have to ask about the 7" vertical G3X is: what are going to display there, all the way on the right-hand side? the 10" display in split screen mode will give you 2 displays side, so you can use the left side for the PFD and the right side for the MFD. The G5 is your standby and the JPI is your engine monitor. You'll probably have an iPad mini on the yoke for foreflight / plates, trip planning, database updates, and engine logging.

second, i have the 750/355 combo, and I don't recommend it because they do not integrate well.. You can't x-fill the flight plan, select a frequency on the 650  and load it into COM2. 100% get 750/650 or 650/650. 

[PT20J]

18 minutes ago, hubcap said:

I am upgrading my panel this fall to include a 10” and a 7” G3X. My layout will have the widescreen on the pilot side of the radio stack and the narrow screen on the right side of the radio stack. I will have a GTN650 and a GNC 355 in the stack. My G5 and JPI 900 will be in the center just to the left of the radios.

Sounds nice. Do consider the G3X EIS. I really like it. I was skeptical at first because I never liked the G1000 engine monitor, but I flew the G3X/EIS in a C-172 and found it much better. One thing I really like is that the alarms are very customizable. You can set caution (yellow) alarms and warning (red) alarms separately and have them different than the required instrument ranges so it's not bothering you with minor exceedances. You can also customize the gauge indications with various tick marks. I put marks at the normal needle positions so I can tell at a glance if anything has changed. And I really like having the manifold pressure gauge near the airspeed indicator. If you have a PMA450B, you can connect the G3X to have audible annunciations for master warning and master caution. 

 

[PT20J]

Some place the GMC 507 mode controller up high in the stack. The argument for this is that the buttons are easier to see..

I placed mine at the bottom of the stack because I don't have to raise my arm so high to access it and I find this easier in turbulence.

When it's bumpy, I'm glad I put it where I did. When the air is smooth, I wish I'd placed it higher. 

Skip

[gevertex]

5 minutes ago, rbp said:

The question you have to ask about the 7" vertical G3X is: what are going to display there, all the way on the right-hand side? the 10" display in split screen mode will give you 2 displays side, so you can use the left side for the PFD and the right side for the MFD. The G5 is your standby and the JPI is your engine monitor. You'll probably have an iPad mini on the yoke for foreflight / plates, trip planning, database updates, and engine logging.

second, i have the 750/355 combo, and I don't recommend it because they do not integrate well.. You can't x-fill the flight plan, select a frequency on the 650  and load it into COM2. 100% get 750/650 or 650/650. 

I am planning on going with the Garmin engine monitoring system. I don’t have a JPI. The 7” screen would mostly display engine stats / serve as a backup incase of 10” screen failure. Also could serve as an interface for a copilot. 

[rbp]

10 minutes ago, gevertex said:

I am planning on going with the Garmin engine monitoring system. I don’t have a JPI. The 7” screen would mostly display engine stats / serve as a backup incase of 10” screen failure. Also could serve as an interface for a copilot. 

 

These are the 10" display on my plane.

There's an engine strip on the left for the most important gauges during flight, and traffic and flight plan insets, and AP status on the top.  

 

If you touch anywhere on the engine strip, it switches the display into split mode, with full engine instrumentation and fuel.

You can use the knob at the bottom right to turn the RH side into any of the MFD pages (Cht = chart, Wpt = waypoint, ec)

 

[rbp]

Although I have the 7" display showing EIS, i don't use it. But I also have a 750 in the radio stack with the map

Lastly, the 7" display will *not* show a PFD (reversionary mode) unless the 10" display is out, but you already have the G5 in you rscan

(this is not the actual screen layout I use)

 

[gevertex]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

Although I have the 7" display showing EIS, i don't use it. But I also have a 750 in the radio stack with the map

Lastly, the 7" display will *not* show a PFD (reversionary mode) unless the 10" display is out, but you already have the G5 in you rscan

(this is not the actual screen layout I use)

 

Agree, you can’t use the second screen as a pfd unless the 10” is out or you have a second LRU

Edited May 14, 2022 by gevertex