ForeFlight is going up.

[PT20J]

I'm not defending the price hike -- my point was just that it was inevitable. The other products have much smaller market share and perhaps have room to grow their customer base if they survive. The market leader enjoys more price setting freedom than the underdogs that are more dependent on lower pricing to attract new customers. Not all these competitors will survive. As Al Ries and Jack Trout said years ago in The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, in the end, it's always a two horse race: Coke/Pepsi, Boeing/Airbus, ForeFlight/? Personally, I've just learned over the years that it's easier to go with the market leader and pay the premium than hang in there with an underdog that may not make it. I don't know how well Seattle Avionics is doing. I would guess that Fltplan will be around since Garmin acquired it.

Skip

[MikeOH]

14 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yes im a Silicon Valley software guy. FlyQ has far fewer features so maintenance is less expensive and I’m sure their rnd budget is 1/10 of foreflight. 
There is no gouging it’s not a captive audience. If the restaurant is too expensive eat Nextdoor 

20% in one chunk for an established product sure is gouging.  But, as I said, that's fine because I believe in capitalism.  Don't like it, buy something else; we agree.

My beef is with all the rationalization in justifying and excusing Boeing's price hike beyond the simple answer that's what they can get away with. You're still doing it: "Far fewer features" Is that really true?  "1/10 the R&D budget" First, do you have any real evidence of that number, or is that just a made-up number to bolster your defense of Boeing's gouging?  Second, I've noticed Boeing's new features seem to only be available to the highest price version of their product!

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I'm not defending the price hike -- my point was just that it was inevitable. The other products have much smaller market share and perhaps have room to grow their customer base if they survive. The market leader enjoys more price setting freedom than the underdogs that are more dependent on lower pricing to attract new customers. Not all these competitors will survive. As Al Ries and Jack Trout said years ago in The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, in the end, it's always a two horse race: Coke/Pepsi, Boeing/Airbus, ForeFlight/? Personally, I've just learned over the years that it's easier to go with the market leader and pay the premium than hang in there with an underdog that may not make it. I don't know how well Seattle Avionics is doing. I would guess that Fltplan will be around since Garmin acquired it.

Skip

Ah, it had been sounding like you were defending/justifying their price hike.

I'm in full agreement with your post.  Well, except for automatically going with the 'market leader.'  I'm not sure Foreflight was the market leader when I first started using it.  But, it seemed the best bang for the buck at that time.  As you said, when Boeing bought them out, the price hike was inevitable.  It just surprised me it took them a couple of years to implement.

 While I've been very happy with Foreflight, I'm no longer sure it's the best bang for the buck.  My subscription is up in June and for the first time I'm going to be looking into FlyQ and FltPlan Go.  I'm not a power user, and I'm sure I don't even know all the features of Foreflight, so it's possible I won't even notice the 'far fewer features' of the other products.

[RobertGary1]

2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Ah, it had been sounding like you were defending/justifying their price hike.

I'm in full agreement with your post.  Well, except for automatically going with the 'market leader.'  I'm not sure Foreflight was the market leader when I first started using it.  But, it seemed the best bang for the buck at that time.  As you said, when Boeing bought them out, the price hike was inevitable.  It just surprised me it took them a couple of years to implement.

 While I've been very happy with Foreflight, I'm no longer sure it's the best bang for the buck.  My subscription is up in June and for the first time I'm going to be looking into FlyQ and FltPlan Go.  I'm not a power user, and I'm sure I don't even know all the features of Foreflight, so it's possible I won't even notice the 'far fewer features' of the other products.

As an example in some of my flying I have to submit a w&b and take off and landing performance numbers. Foreflight does that with a click of a button and has all our aircraft already jn their data so I don’t have to enter empty w&b. If you don’t use all the features the product may not make sense for you. 

[mhrivnak]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

This response is directed at both you, @PT20J, and @mhrivnak.

1) Don't think you are the only ones with management, product support, and marketing experience!

2) So, if it costs oh, so much to maintain software or it 'dies'.  Then please explain how other POPULAR EFBs like FlyQ, and FltPlan Go manage to thrive without gouging their customers?

3) It never ceases to amaze me how many fan boys will defend companies that jack their prices by 20% at a time

Good questions.

1. Ack.

2. Mostly by having fewer features, and especially fewer cloud services and third-party integrations. That can cut (or grow) costs a lot. But keep in mind that while there are lots of different revenue/pricing models that might make sense, they're all subject to the same basic cost framework. I saw some assertions about cost earlier in this thread and responded primarily to those. It costs a lot to keep a product like Foreflight going. As for pricing, some software vendors have lower-cost (or even free) basic tiers, sometimes as a loss leader, with hopes of selling premium services to generate actual profit. For example FlyPlan Go has a long list of "Premium Services" on their website, which could be an example of this approach. Otherwise, we can probably explain their lower basic pricing by their lower costs, driven again by having fewer features.

3. If you're suggesting that applies to me, I think that's misplaced, and seems dismissive, though you may not have meant it that way. Foreflight is a best-in-class tool that I am happy to use, and I think the price today is fair just as I thought the price 5 years ago was fair.

[MikeOH]

6 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

As an example in some of my flying I have to submit a w&b and take off and landing performance numbers. Foreflight does that with a click of a button and has all our aircraft already jn their data so I don’t have to enter empty w&b. If you don’t use all the features the product may not make sense for you. 

Very likely.  It is a shame, as I like the product, but the value proposition is becoming less attractive, and the idea I'm being taken advantage of is annoying.  It's not like I can't afford the increase so, to be honest, it's the being gouged that bothers me the most!

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, mhrivnak said:

Good questions.

1. Ack.

2. Mostly by having fewer features, and especially fewer cloud services and third-party integrations. That can cut (or grow) costs a lot. But keep in mind that while there are lots of different revenue/pricing models that might make sense, they're all subject to the same basic cost framework. I saw some assertions about cost earlier in this thread and responded primarily to those. It costs a lot to keep a product like Foreflight going. As for pricing, some software vendors have lower-cost (or even free) basic tiers, sometimes as a loss leader, with hopes of selling premium services to generate actual profit. For example FlyPlan Go has a long list of "Premium Services" on their website, which could be an example of this approach. Otherwise, we can probably explain their lower basic pricing by their lower costs, driven again by having fewer features.

3. If you're suggesting that applies to me, I think that's misplaced, and seems dismissive, though you may not have meant it that way. Foreflight is a best-in-class tool that I am happy to use, and I think the price today is fair just as I thought the price 5 years ago was fair.

2) Valid issues, but I can't believe Foreflight (before the Boeing acquisition) was NOT taking those issues into account in their pricing, and only Boeing was sophisticated enough to understand them and decide a 20% price hike was what was needed to make up for the original Foreflight management's incompetence!  I think it was Boeing's marketing dept. deciding the sheep won't run if we jack the price 20%.

3) My apologies; that particular comment did NOT apply to your previous posts.  Where we disagree (obviously!) is that while the price 5 years ago was fair, today's price, not so much!

 

Bottom line, I'm a believer in market pricing (not cost based), and Boeing has merely decided to find out where that price point is.  I'm just personally not happy about it!

[hubcap]

As a percentage of what I spent on aviation in the last year...my Foreflight subscription is inconsequential. 

I am surprised that there have been 3 pages of discussion over this few $$$

[mhrivnak]

3 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

2) Valid issues, but I can't believe Foreflight (before the Boeing acquisition) was NOT taking those issues into account in their pricing, and only Boeing was sophisticated enough to understand them and decide a 20% price hike was what was needed to make up for the original Foreflight management's incompetence!  I think it was Boeing's marketing dept. deciding the sheep won't run if we jack the price 20%.

3) My apologies; that particular comment did NOT apply to your previous posts.  Where we disagree (obviously!) is that while the price 5 years ago was fair, today's price, not so much!

 

Bottom line, I'm a believer in market pricing (not cost based), and Boeing has merely decided to find out where that price point is.  I'm just personally not happy about it!

Keep in mind, it's been three years since Boeing acquired Foreflight. Boeing owns the last 3 years of pricing decisions as much as they own today's.

[Andy95W]

I get FF for free from my employer as our backup charts service and I hate it.

I use FltPlanGo in my Mooney, it will transfer flight plans to my Garmin GPS, interfaces perfectly with my Garmin ADS-B receiver, has geo-referenced everything, and it’s FREE.  I do flight planning on the Leidos 1800wxbrief.com website, which gives me text messages just like the expensive FF.  Also FREE, also easy to use.

Is it great? No.  But it’s good, it’s easy to use, keeps me legal, and it’s FREE.

[Mooneymite]

23 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I get FF for free from my employer as our backup charts service and I hate it.

I use FltPlanGo in my Mooney, it will transfer flight plans to my Garmin GPS, interfaces perfectly with my Garmin ADS-B receiver, has geo-referenced everything, and it’s FREE.  I do flight planning on the Leidos 1800wxbrief.com website, which gives me text messages just like the expensive FF.  Also FREE, also easy to use.

Is it great? No.  But it’s good, it’s easy to use, keeps me legal, and it’s FREE.

Eeeeezactly!!!

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Basically. I really enjoy all the features of the product and happy to not have to drive down to the fbo to buy charts the night before an early flight. 
But there are less expensive ipad products for those who don’t love the features of foreflight . 

When we do things like home improvement work we almost never end up choosing the l least expensive.p either.  Function, feature, flow, compatibility, familiarity, are far more important to me in an IFR EFB than a $0.16 per day (or $1.20 per flight hour based on a paltry 50 hours per year)  increase. I guess I'll have to have fewer McMuffins on the way to the airport when I have a morning flight to make it up.

[Mooneymite]

4 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

When we do things like home improvement work we almost never end up choosing the l least expensive.p either.  Function, feature, flow, compatibility, familiarity, are far more important to me in an IFR EFB than a $0.16 per day (or $1.20 per flight hour based on a paltry 50 hours per year)  increase. I guess I'll have to have fewer McMuffins on the way to the airport when I have a morning flight to make it up.

Thinking like that will jeopardize your standing as a CB in the Mooney community!  

[midlifeflyer]

7 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Thinking like that will jeopardize your standing as a CB in the Mooney community!  

Seriously, if the value math didn't work for me I'd use something else. For example, I have also subscribed to IFlyGPS as a backup for the last few years but decided to let it lapse. Basically I have only used a backup to FF once in the past 11 years so. As much as I like the app, and enjoy being something of an EFB geek,  it just didn't make sense anymore (unrelated to the FF price increase). And if I stopped flying IFR, I'd probably use something else. 

[lotsofgadgets]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:23 PM, 0TreeLemur said:

I have Stratus 2.  The FlyQ web site says they support over 20 ADS-B systems.  When I click on the link to see which ones, it throws 404.   Several broken links on their site.

Stratus Insight (Aerovie) natively supports the Stratus 2 ADSB protocol.  If you have a Stratus 2, Insight or Foreflight are your only options for native support. 

Appareo does have a trade up option to upgrade to the Stratus 3 which has open ADSB support in addition to the legacy foreflight protocol.

[McMooney]

Garmin pilot user here, love it.    really liked foreflight also but it was more expensive.

hope Garmin doesn't feel the need to keep up on pricing.

 

question:  anyone know can verify the stratus 3i is compatible with GP, site says the stratus 3 is but nothing about the 3i

[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, McMooney said:

Garmin pilot user here, love it.    really liked foreflight also but it was more expensive.

hope Garmin doesn't feel the need to keep up on pricing.

 

question:  anyone know can verify the stratus 3i is compatible with GP, site says the stratus 3 is but nothing about the 3i

I think the "i" versions of the stratus require connection to another source of position data.  Should be identical in every other way.   My a/c has the 2i connected to the Appareo xpdr, and gets its position from the 430W.

 

[Larry]

Does Foreflight usually offer a discount at OSH?

[amillet]

On 3/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, midlifeflyer said:

When we do things like home improvement work we almost never end up choosing the l least expensive.p either.  Function, feature, flow, compatibility, familiarity, are far more important to me in an IFR EFB than a $0.16 per day (or $1.20 per flight hour based on a paltry 50 hours per year)  increase. I guess I'll have to have fewer McMuffins on the way to the airport when I have a morning flight to make it up.

And you’ll lose weight and gain useful load

[INA201]

Somehow I found myself on page three of this thread.  I am automatically required to post now. I had both Wing X and ForeFlight years ago.  Both competed very well and ForeFlight ultimately won imop. For me, I like IT products that continually innovate.  In return I will use these services and invest my time to stay up to date(time is more valuable $$ currently).  I would be much more frustrated if Garmin got bought out by Boeing.  For now,  I’ll reduce fuel flow for a couple of flights and call it even.  Garmin needs to take notice! If Garmin can get their functionality up there with Forefilght, who knows.