Learners

[rpcc]

It makes me laugh thinking about all the meetings that must have occurred where everyone discussed how offencive the term Student was to potential pilots.  The wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth must have been tremendous along with the expense involved.   I wonder how many man years in total went into resolving this offense.  

Were there protests and letter/email campaigns sent to the company to cause this change or did some manager wake up one morning and say, hey, time to justify our existence, lets change Student to Learner and make ourselves valuable.  

This is just meaningless noise.

[A64Pilot]

The changing names of things is not the issue of course, if you say a horse is a cow, it doesn’t make it so, it’s still a horse

But it’s a symptom, and you may be surprised at how many would think it’s a cow

[KLRDMD]

5 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

this “learner” thing just doesn’t make it to the top of my list. It’s the term everyone is education is either using or will be using.

Not everyone in education.

[A64Pilot]

2 minutes ago, rpcc said:

It makes me laugh thinking about all the meetings that must have occurred where everyone discussed how offencive the term Student was to potential pilots.  The wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth must have been tremendous along with the expense involved.   I wonder how many man years in total went into resolving this offense.  

There wasn’t any, previous poster about dogs pissing hit the nail on the head.

‘In the Army you needed “bullet comments” to put in your OER to get promoted, essentially a list of your accomplishments. A way to generate bullet comments is to simply change the name of something that’s always been done, the you can say you implemented this and that 

[ilovecornfields]

8 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The changing names of things is not the issue of course, if you say a horse is a cow, it doesn’t make it so, it’s still a horse

But it’s a symptom, and you may be surprised at how many would think it’s a cow

I wouldn’t be surprised at all. If you repeat something that clearly isn’t true enough times  people will believe it. If I was able to change education I would focus more on teaching people how to think. If you’ve never read “Thinking, fast and slow” I would highly recommend it.

[Hank]

12 hours ago, EricJ said:

GET OFF MY LAWN!

Nah, it's more like GET OFF MY RUNWAY!!

[47U]

11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

As soon as “maintainers” is universally accepted as someone who fixes airplanes, they will need to change it. I’m voting for “correctors” to correct airworthiness deficiencies.  

Crew chiefs are “Knuckle-draggers.”

Avionics techs are “Grinners.”

If you maintain sensors (contractor or otherwise), you’re a “Super-grinner.”

As told to me by an A-10 crew chief.

[201er]

I find the word learner to be offensive! It is exclusive of individuals who are fricken dumbasses and can't seem to learn anything!

Isn't aviation by definition not inclusive? You have to take a bunch of tests and spend a ton of money. Why not just do away with the tests if you don't want people to be students?

[Rick Junkin]

In Great Britain they call unlicensed drivers "learners", and make them put this sticker on their cars when a "learner" is at the wheel.

There was a USAF Strike Eagle instructor at RAF Lakenheath that would put one of these on the canopy when he was flying with a newly-arrived pilot going through the squadron's Mission Ready upgrade training. Pretty funny.

There was quite a bit of press when the FAA implemented the "learner" terminology. As I recall the main emphasis cited was inclusion. For instance the thought was referring to someone training for his instrument/commercial/ATP as a "student" is inappropriate. I don't agree, but that was the FAA position.

Cheers,
Rick

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

My favorite example of the stupidity of changing terms was in a VT squadron.  Apparently, the Navy hired a consultant to "improve" our training.  The big, memorable improvement she made was to get rid of the awful, mean, degrading term we used when a 'student' failed a flight, "Down".  She insisted we change that to the more nuanced, nicer, less derogatory, and more correct term, "Signal of Difficulty".  As with everything in the military, terms get shortened to acronyms.  So would you rather be "Downed", or be "Sodded"?

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

I wouldn’t be surprised at all. If you repeat something that clearly isn’t true enough times  people will believe it.

That’s how Lawyers and Politicians work. It’s common for Lawyers to make unsubstantiated claims if they can get away with it, theory is some of the Jury will believe it, no matter how absurd it is.

 Politicians do this religiously, and shift blame.

I was on an airliner on my way to Kuwait soon after the Lewinsky scandal, President started beating the war drums claiming Iraq was kicking out UN inspectors etc and started a Military build up to shift blame, it didn’t work of course, but anyway in my way over on the Airliner the movie was “Wag the Dog” not a very successful movie, but fit what was going on pretty well.

But when I think about it, 50 years ago when I was 15, I got my learners permit, Not student driver?

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Greg Ellis]

Along the lines of new changes that kind of bug you.... I grew up in a world of hockey.  Born in Canada, I played as a kid, my Dad was the team physician for 2 teams in Canada and a team here in Texas when we moved here in the late 70's.  I like hockey.  Anyways,  I was watching a game a few weeks ago and a player got injured.  Out on the ice came the Athletic therapist according to the announcers.  I always referred to them as trainers.  Somehow, a change was made and they did not even ask me if it was ok.  Trainers became athletic therapists.  This post has nothing to do with nothing but the whole thread here just reminded me of it.

[cwaters]

19 hours ago, donkaye said:

I had planned on donating large amounts of money to both EAA and AOPA when my time on earth has ended.  If I see the word "learner" turn up in any documentation coming from either of those organizations relating to "students", they will get nothing.

Hey if you truly decide to give them nothing, you can send it to me and I'll vow to never use the term and always be a student of aviation. Or take up the cause and use the funds to start a campaign fighting PC changes in aviation.

 

[Immelman]

13 hours ago, donkaye said:

Every time I see the word "learner" it makes me angry.  It takes away from the "learning" process.

I hear you.... and agree the change isn't helping anything, but if that's all it takes you make you angry, frankly that doesn't sound very healthy. May I suggest some breathing exercises (see "square breathing" for example) or other relaxation/mindfulness techniques.

As far as the aviation organizations go, that is why I posted above the reference to the AIH. The government in their wisdom decided to put forth this verbiage.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to practice my ATC check-ins using "learner pilot" at the end of every initial contact.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Immelman

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Nah, it's more like GET OFF MY RUNWAY!!

Did Clint say that too?

[donkaye, MCFI]

5 hours ago, Immelman said:

I hear you.... and agree the change isn't helping anything, but if that's all it takes you make you angry, frankly that doesn't sound very healthy. May I suggest some breathing exercises (see "square breathing" for example) or other relaxation/mindfulness techniques.

As far as the aviation organizations go, that is why I posted above the reference to the AIH. The government in their wisdom decided to put forth this verbiage.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to practice my ATC check-ins using "learner pilot" at the end of every initial contact.

Obviously, it's more than just the word but that's about as far into the political realm that I want to go.

[201Mooniac]

I probably shouldn't get into this but I'm just curious why people are bothered by students being learners but they aren't bothered by teachers being instructors?  Sorry, couldn't resist.

[PT20J]

44 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

I probably shouldn't get into this but I'm just curious why people are bothered by students being learners but they aren't bothered by teachers being instructors?  Sorry, couldn't resist.

Because that’s the way it has been for a long time. What people really dislike is change. Then we find a way to work that distaste into our socio-political viewpoint to justify our angst.

I read an article written by a website designer that pointed out the dilemma: Older people hate it when a website layout is different than when they last visited, whereas younger people find it boring when it when it’s the same.

When I was in my thirties, I used to wonder why my father didn’t like things to change. Now that I am in my sixties, it is becoming clearer. 

[ilovecornfields]

1 minute ago, PT20J said:

Because that’s the way it has been for a long time. What people really dislike is change. Then we find a way to work that distaste into our socio-political viewpoint to justify our angst.

You said this much better than I could have.
Everyone is primed right now to immediately jump on any trivial thing as a sign that “they” are trying to ruin the world for “us” and if “we” don’t act right now we’ll lose. At least that’s what one of the letters said that I recently received from a large national political organization. I guess there are advantages to being on the mailing lists for both major parties.

I don’t understand politics very well so I have no idea how this makes our country better but apparently it does somehow. And if I just send them a small donation I can “be part of the solution.”

I consider myself pretty lucky that I work closely with a diverse group of people whose political orientations are quite different from mine and we know and respect each other well enough to have civil thoughtful conversations. Most of the time. Seems this is much more challenging to accomplish on the interwebs.

[PT20J]

Tip O’Neil and Ronald Reagan were advisories by day and friends after hours.

Someone once explained Democrat and Republican politicians as being like criminal attorneys. In court, your defense attorney fights the prosecutor tooth and nail. But when court is adjourned for the day, you go back to your cell, and the two attorneys go out for a drink together.

Some of us take politics too seriously.

 

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

 

Some of us take politics too seriously.

 

Well, that's because we are all stuck in our daily cells paying for the politicians' drink fests

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Tip O’Neil and Ronald Reagan were advisories by day and friends after hours.

Someone once explained Democrat and Republican politicians as being like criminal attorneys. In court, your defense attorney fights the prosecutor tooth and nail. But when court is adjourned for the day, you go back to your cell, and the two attorneys go out for a drink together.

Some of us take politics too seriously.

 

Something happened when people started thinking of their fellow Americans as “the enemy”.

Its pretty clear who our enemies are.  North Korea, China, militant Islamists, Putin, etc.

Republicans and Democrats are just two different stripes on the same tiger.

[Kmac]

13 hours ago, GeeBee said:

It is all part of what I call "Pee on the bush". Just like male dogs have to leave their mark so do people. Every time we got a new VP of Flight Ops, wholesale changes to the Flight Ops manual and other things. So with these changes just think of your dog with his leg hiked, urinating over the previous dog's urine and you have the picture. Remember, it's all urine.

 

 

Good explanation.   I like the analogy. 

Change just to make change isn't improvement.

[carusoam]

11 hours ago, Junkman said:

In Great Britain they call unlicensed drivers "learners", and make them put this sticker on their cars when a "learner" is at the wheel.

There was a USAF Strike Eagle instructor at RAF Lakenheath that would put one of these on the canopy when he was flying with a newly-arrived pilot going through the squadron's Mission Ready upgrade training. Pretty funny.

There was quite a bit of press when the FAA implemented the "learner" terminology. As I recall the main emphasis cited was inclusion. For instance the thought was referring to someone training for his instrument/commercial/ATP as a "student" is inappropriate. I don't agree, but that was the FAA position.

Cheers,
Rick

In NJ…

The brilliant people running the government….

Thought it was a great idea to identify Learner Drivers with magnetic signs…

As if… this would be somehow helpful…

 

NJ is the place… when a traffic light turns green, it is the responsibility of the guy behind you to honk the horn….

Don’t move until you seen a green light AND hear the horn….   
 

Putting a student driver sign on the car is like Mom and Dad putting a ‘Kick Me’ sign on your back…

Some ideas are good… others… not so much…

 

How about that USAA decal?  
If I’m going to hit someone, that guy has insurance….  

There must be secondary meanings to everything… 

 

PP thoughts only, not a therapist…

Best regards,

-a-

[Brian E.]

On 3/23/2022 at 5:28 PM, A64Pilot said:

God, what’s next?

What does it matter?

NOTAMs become something else like Notice to Air Missions...