Should Tesla buy Mooney?

[A64Pilot]

While a TC holder is allowed to do an STC, it’s foolish to do so. As the owner of the TC, it’s better to simply amend the TC.

I’ve participated in the issue of “Custom kits” where we issued a way to turn an S2R-T34 aircraft into an S2R-T65HG, which is an entirely different aircraft with a much larger engine etc, aircraft even got a different data plate that was riveted right alongside the original.

But we never issued an STC.

We did several, this one took a -15 to a -34 for example

https://manualzz.com/doc/27414134/custom-kit-no---thrush-aircraft

It is the same as if Mooney issued a kit to covert an F into a J or whatever.

So if for example someone actually did electrify a Mooney, if the mods weren’t excessive they could issue a kit to convert some of the older models.

If your the manufacturer and TC holder, you are allowed or do things “ordinary” companies can’t or really it’s easier for you to do it than someone else.

Edited March 8, 2022 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

To get the Production Certificate. Buy a PC today and you can be building aircraft tomorrow, Start from scratch and it would honestly probably take years unless you have some serious political pull, and even then it wouldn’t be quick, a PC entails an entire Quality control system and Process specs for every thing you do from welding, painting, forming parts everything has a Process spec. You get all of it if you buy a PC.

I’d bet Mooney’s actual sales price is probably less than is woud cost to stand up a Production Certificate and all the Process specs are Grandfathered in, for instance Thrush had process specs for Alodine tanks and cadmium. plating, we dropped the Cad plating but getting those in with todays environmental restrictions would be tough.

‘Even if you had no interest in the TC, the PC is worth money. But for instance without a PC, a TC is not worth much.

Sure, if you wanted to build Mooney's 

I don't see Musk building Mooneys. I figure it would look more like a Cirrus. If you wanted to build a wing that could hold the maximum amount of batteries and power cables, I don't see it happening in a Mooney wing.

[MIm20c]

No way Musk would buy Mooney.  If he gets into the game he’ll buy off some politicians, build a multi billion dollar factory, and design and build a sleek composite aircraft. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by MIm20c

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

and he stood up com's in Ukraine in less than 24 hrs, something the current admin couldnt get done. Of course he is using existing technology from SpaceX and probably did it as a market ploy. I have learned one thing over the last 5 years, dont bet against Elon. Show me any company with best in class product, hypergrowth industry and arrogant competitors, and I want to invest in them.

No.  This is an example of Musk self-promotion.    Iridium and a whole passel of other satellite systems have been there for many years, and the US has been there since before the invasion providing a ton of electronic surveillance and comm support.

Who waves their hand and says, "Look what I can do!  I have a new, low-data-rate satellite system to promote!"

Not new, not the first, not the only.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by EricJ

[mike_elliott]

and yet he was the only one to get it done. None of those passel of satellite systems had a solution, but our guy Elon did, and freely gave it to them. Perhaps they were too bogged down with ESG compliance to assist, I dont know.

“What we’re seeing with Elon Musk and the Starlink capabilities is really showing us what a megaconstellation or a proliferated architecture can provide in terms of redundancy and capability,” Gen. James Dickinson, commander of U.S. Space Command, said during a hearing the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Eric, its ok not to like Elon, really. History will have the final say here. 

[ZuluZulu]

55 minutes ago, EricJ said:

No.  This is an example of Musk self-promotion.    Iridium and a whole passel of other satellite systems have been there for many years, and the US has been there since before the invasion providing a ton of electronic surveillance and comm support.

Who waves their hand and says, "Look what I can do!  I have a new, low-data-rate satellite system to promote!"

Not new, not the first, not the only.

 

I wish I could buy stock in his ability to inspire people to defend him from any criticism online.  He's the best in the world at that.

[Kmac]

9 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

I wish I could buy stock in his ability to inspire people to defend him from any criticism online.  He's the best in the world at that.

You are probably not referring to me, as I don't think I've been defending him...

All that is needed is Musk/Tesla to purchase Mooney...I'll go operate the new Mooney factory for him...access to the capital, batteries, and software are all that are needed...

I'm guessing @Sabremech would love to design another new cowl...

[mike_elliott]

23 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

I wish I could buy stock in his ability to inspire people to defend him from any criticism online.  He's the best in the world at that.

You can, there is a fund that shorts all things Tesla. Havent you heard? They are going bankrupt.

[RobertGary1]

No way Musk would have any interest in an ancient airframe. He is a pilot btw. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

and yet he was the only one to get it done. None of those passel of satellite systems had a solution, but our guy Elon did, and freely gave it to them. Perhaps they were too bogged down with ESG compliance to assist, I dont know.

Eric, its ok not to like Elon, really. History will have the final say here. 

You missed my point.   He wasn't the only one to get anything done.   Similar systems are already in place and have been for a long time.   Ukraine has and has had satellite comm, even portable, for decades.  The cell phones and internet still work in the majority of the country.   Starlink is not a new technology by a long stretch.  Musk added very little to the situation other than a promotional opportunity.   What did he get done?    There will be a little more added capability from some additional small terminals, but it's a tiny incremental improvement compared to what was already available.   I'm sure those that get them in areas with disrupted communication will be grateful, and I'm glad people are being helped, but don't be fooled into thinking it was some new or big thing that got done.  

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by EricJ

[carusoam]

Late to the party again… 

+1 for Elon not being a genius… because we can’t agree on what a genius is…

Watch Elon in one of his interview walking around Boca Chica…. He thinks faster, and delivers answers faster than many can absorb the information… hit the rewind every now and then… 

 

+1 for Elon’s ability to re-use very expensive assets from the oil industry…

Their re-use is a simple cost saving step for his current projects….  Having him re-use Mooney the factory… might not be very beneficial to Mooney owners….

 

+1 for MSers sharing their actual experience with cost and performance of their EVs…

I would not have been able to gather this much real data, and separate it from marketing  hype… with a history of the improvements….

 

+1 for KMAC for filling in the spaces, and keeping the conversation moving forwards…

 

+1 for the naysayers… if they are quiet, we might miss a very important point… or not know how the EV systems handle all the challenges…

 

+1 for Columbus… he didn’t invent the compass, or the sailboat… or provide the funding… but, he sure did make a name for himself…  even though his name wasn’t really Columbus… it was a touch more Italian….

Amerigo Vespucci seems to have his name all over the place… and he was only a map maker…

 

+1 for the low cost of electric vehicle operation… this seems to be going the right direction… and continues to improve at a rapid pace…

 

-1 for the option of not buying a new plane… because I can’t afford one today…

I would have to include the lifetime costs to make this more viable…   I abhor looking at lifetime costs of aviation…   

 

Keep the ideas flowing !

Best regards,

-a-

[ZuluZulu]

9 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

No way Musk would have any interest in an ancient airframe. He is a pilot btw. 

Kind of. Third class medical date: 11/2000.

[jetdriven]

23 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

We paid just over 40K for the Model 3, average cost of a new vehicle is 47K, so the Model 3 is significantly less than average

https://www.businessinsider.com/new-car-prices-inflation-shortages-semiconductor-chips-2022-1

The very cheapest model 3 is 48,490.    They have taken a huge leap upwards in the past year or so  

[Kmac]

On 3/6/2022 at 3:51 PM, flyboy0681 said:

Wait, Kmac's post was serious?

You betcha...

100LL is dying...or being killed...

ICE is dying...or being killed...

Our airframes are dying...

Mooney is on its absolute last gasp...

GA is dying...probably quicker that we all like to admit or realize...

 

Now here is an idea, albeit grandiose and slightly out of the box...

 

I would sell everything and move to Kerrville to help make it work...  Elon/Tesla, are you listening?

[A64Pilot]

20 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Sure, if you wanted to build Mooney's 

I don't see Musk building Mooneys. I figure it would look more like a Cirrus. If you wanted to build a wing that could hold the maximum amount of batteries and power cables, I don't see it happening in a Mooney wing.

You don’t understand, a PC isn’t tied to a TC.

For instance if I bought Mooney I could start building Beechcraft or Cessna parts tomorrow or if I bought a TC like say the lake amphibian, I could start building it or whatever.

A PC makes you an aircraft manufacturer, any aircraft that you have the tooling and permission to build, of course you couldn’t just start building C-172’s without Cessna’s permission, but you could build its parts to sell.

Example in 1965 North American / Rockwell built the Albany Ga plant, got a PC because well, they were North American / Rockwell, they bought several TC’s like the Meyers 200 and started building them as well as others they bought. They bought their way into GA manufacturing, not very successfully though.

You can’t manufacture an aircraft without a PC, but with a PC you can manufacture any aircraft that’s within your capabilities list, composites for example, I bet lunch Mooney has in its capability list composites, so they could build a Cirrus type of aircraft, once they got drawings approved.

The actual details are more complicated of course, but that's the gist of it.

The actual value in my opinion of Mooney is the PC, not likely the TC or I assume the old building that likely needs extensive work or the likely out of date production equipment. Not to be ugly but I doubt the factory is filled with modern C&C equipment. 

But that PC has real value for someone who needs one, again an opinion.

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

The very cheapest model 3 is 48,490.    They have taken a huge leap upwards in the past year or so  

I bought last year and yes Tesla is in business to make money and anything thats in very high demand has a tendency to increase in price.

However the Model 3 even with its increased price is well within the “average vehicle price” which is I believe $47,000, last years price when I paid 42 for my Tesla, what’s average now ? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38748092/new-car-average-sale-prices-47100/

I think there is a rather large profit margin in the Model 3 and Y as he doesn’t spend a nickel on advertising, which is usually a huge expense.

Look at the delivery date, if you buy today, you might can take delivery in July, but I bet that date has already slipped. I bet within a few weeks Tesla Model 3’s will be sold out for this year.

When you have that kind of demand, yes you jack the prices.

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Kmac]

3 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You don’t understand, a PC isn’t tied to a TC.

For instance if I bought Mooney I could start building Beechcraft or Cessna parts tomorrow or if I bought a TC like say the lake amphibian, I could start building it or whatever.

A PC makes you an aircraft manufacturer, any aircraft that you have the tooling and permission to build, of course you couldn’t just start building C-172’s without Cessna’s permission, but you could build its parts to sell.

Example in 1965 Aero Commander built the Albany Ga plant, they bought several TC’s like the Meyers 200 and started building them as well as others they bought.

You can’t manufacture an aircraft without a PC, but with a PC you can manufacture any aircraft that’s within your capabilities list, composites for example, I bet lunch Mooney has in its capability list composites, so they could build a Cirrus type of aircraft, once they got drawings approved.

Awesome information...

 

You began to explain earlier, but how much could you change the Mooney TC without having to register an entire new TC?

Could you change from an aluminum wing to composite?

Could you change from a steel roll cage to something else instead or also?

I am just trying to save the most amount of time and money on engineering/certification costs...

 

Obviously, now that I know, the PC is really what is worth the $$

 

[mike_elliott]

18 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

But that PC has real value for someone who needs one, again an opinion.

Bingo. The buildings are leased, most of the other liquid assets have been sold. Another soft asset is there are a few talented people still their working to keep us in parts, and to keep the TC and PC alive. How are they getting paid? It isnt from posting copies of the service and parts manual here or from 3D printing your own parts. To summarize, Elon Musk has a stated desire to build an electric VTOL aircraft sometime in the future when energy density of batteries reach greater than 400 wh/kg. Ed Nunez has a Production Certificate that Elon could use for this purpose with a factory in Kerrville, close to the worlds largest factory Elon is building in the US. Elon is a qualified buyer and it could simply be a matter of setting off the SEC by selling a few shares of stock, something he has been known to do to satisfy certain alleged native american senators

[A64Pilot]

It’s actually a negioation with the FAA as to what they will allow.

For instance I Certified a “new” crop duster under the existing TC, the new aircraft increased its gross weight from 6,000 lbs to 10,500 lbs and its operating limits were greatly increased like VNE, its flap operating speed was faster then its predecessors VNE etc.

The reason I did this was a new TC would require the aircraft to be a fully FAR 23 aircraft which is much more difficult / expensive to Certify, but the existing aircraft were all CAR3/ CAM 8 aircraft.

The FAA made us meet several FAR 23 standards as they can do that, but the Cert basis remained CAR3.

FAA is very flexible with their rules, for instance when Air Tractor wanted to begin production all new aircraft were required to be fully FAR 23, but Air Tractor petitioned the FAA that since their completion was allowed to build to CAR 3 standards that holding Air Tractor to FAR 23 wouldn’t allow them to compete on an equal footing. The FAA agreed and AirTractors are not FAR 23 aircraft, even though the regs clearly state they had to be.

So you can pull up the FAR’s and they will specifically tell you what you can and cannot do, but in truth it’s not that simple, very often the FAA will hold you to tighter standards or relaxed standards, but even if they try to nail you to the wall there is still negioation, often they have other motives, they are really after something else that they can’t make you do, but if you agree to, they will give you what you want on something else.

You work with the MIDO which is Manufacturing, the ACO which is Certification, and of course to a smaller extent the FSDO.

What cannot be overstated is the value of a good working relationship with those three depts. You don’t have to roll over for everything they say, and shouldn’t,  but if they let you slide on something and you promise you will deliver later, don’t blow them off as you will have to ask for something else and if you lied earlier it’s not going to go well.

I watched the new President of the Company destroy a decade of good will very quickly.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Kmac]

4 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The reason I did this was a new TC would require the aircraft to be a fully FAR 23 aircraft which is much more difficult / expensive to Certify, but the existing aircraft were all CAR3/ CAM 8 aircraft.

The FAA made us meet several FAR 23 standards as they can do that, but the Cert basis remained CAR3.

 

+1...that is one specific thing I was trying to avoid with this plan...

[N9656G]

46 minutes ago, Kmac said:

You betcha...

100LL is dying...or being killed...

ICE is dying...or being killed...

Our airframes are dying...

Mooney is on its absolute last gasp...

GA is dying...probably quicker that we all like to admit or realize...

 

Now here is an idea, albeit grandiose and slightly out of the box...

 

I would sell everything and move to Kerrville to help make it work...  Elon/Tesla, are you listening?

Well, 

That makes 2 of us. I know of an investor who could sneeze at 12 million too...former visa founder good friend of mine. Aviation nut. Falcon 50 & Piaggio p-180 owner.

The only other idea I had was taking every single Mooney Serial # ever created and re-creating a pictute of the orginal scheme per the SN based on factory data into a picture of the orginal plane.

With over 11K built. We could sell the orginal images of the airplane as an NFT (non fungible tokens). Let's say each orgional picture costs about $1,000. We would start with a working capital of about 11 million if we sold all 11,000 pictures. NFT's are DUMB but they ARE happening/Being Traded just like CRYPTO.

If someone would spend 10k on "Digital Land" or 2 million on a picture of a monkey... they would 100% spend $1000.00 on a "Digtial Airplane". I feel like this could be done for other airplane brands as well.

Okay Mooniacs, between the new, old and retired. How many of us would pick up and move to keep the dream alive? My wife would not be too happy, but I am sure she would come. GA is dying because we are letting it.

We are NOT inspiring the next generation. They are stuck in a tic-toc enduced time warp and we need to pull them out. We need to get kids/teens to the airport and the AP shop.

We were all inspired? Why the hell have we given up on inspiring others? I BET if 28-35 year olds knew they could purchase a mooney on a 20 year loan and fly it for less then their Porshe/Suburban lease or auto loan...they would JUMP on an airplane vs. a flashy car.

Yes things have become more expensive and quickly. Parts more limited and harder to find but I think this is our fault. With all the tools in the world to share how amazing aviation is now, we are doing a terriable job at inspiring the next generation to get into this. Yes it's expensive. Yes access is limited, but that's life. We need to teach people to WORK to put themselves in the position they want to be in life. 

GA is NOT dying. GA pilots that inspiried us current pilots ARE. So time to do our part and get inspiring...

 

@kmac

 

 

[dylanac]

1 hour ago, Kmac said:

Now here is an idea, albeit grandiose and slightly out of the box...

 

I would sell everything and move to Kerrville to help make it work...  Elon/Tesla, are you listening?

My thoughts towards the man aside, Musk has a lot on his plate already and has previously stated he would not do airplanes. GA has been dying a slow death for years and the electric technology is really not at the level to make it work yet unfortunately. A man with the kind of resources Musk has would not buy a dying company like Mooney. The same way he didn't start SpaceX with surplus NASA gear from the 60s. Trainers such as the Pipstrel are neat projects that show huge potential, but the market simply isn't large enough. Even if you could sell an electric plane with the same useful load and range as a 100LL on, there are many pilots who are too stubborn to adopt it. Look at how many people now swear they will never get an electric car. There are always major adoption hurdles to cross when a paradigm shift in technology such as this happens. I think Musk understands that air travel cannot easily be electrified, at least in the next decade or so, which is why he put his eggs in the Boring Company basket.

[A64Pilot]

My opinion that a fully composite airframe with electric propulsion with the accompanying changes aerodynamically would require FAR 23 Certification, which would be a show stopper for Mooney, but for someone with Billions? Not so much.

But again another opinion, I think he wants to build a Biz jet type of aircraft as he is in business to make money and about 97% of the money spent every year on GA is spent on Biz jets, not out little airplanes, there just isn’t “real” money in little airplanes.

I think he’s set on this Mars thing and understands that there is no single Nation Stste with enough money to pull that off, so to do it himself, he will have to have more money than say the US Government.

I think he’s nuts, but who knows?

[A64Pilot]

To beat the electric car drum again, our Model 3 actually uses 200WH per mile to drive, that’s 1KWH per five miles at 14c per KWH it costs on paper 2.8c per mile to drive. That's our actual consumption not book numbers.

But in reality charging is only 85% efficient so with charging loss it’s really 3.3C per mile.

But the Miata with todays gas price cost 20c per mile in fuel. 

So fuel cost for the Model 3 is almost 1/7 the fuel cost to drive a Miata, now figure out what it cost to drive an SUV?

Last 31 days, 35 miles each way to work every day plus of course what’s driven on weekends and shopping, going out to eat etc. $58 bucks a month

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

The best effort to make an electric airplane has produced an LSA with a range that wont get you very far. Just to compare, an LSA burns about 5 gallons per hour, a mid sized biz jet burns about 150 gallons per hour. That's 30 times the energy.

I can see batteries getting twice as good as now, but not 30 times better. They have been working on batteries for a couple of hundred years. There are only so many elements available to work with and they have tried them all. I personally think the chance of there ever being an electric biz jet is nil. I think the possibility of a Mooney sized electric airplane with equivalent performance, range and payload is highly unlikely. 

All of these depend on some mythical battery, that is right up there with dilithium crystals and the Mr. Fusion.