Avidyne’s Dirty Little Secret “Black List”

[carusoam]

Anyone seen any guidance on what to do with gyro instruments after they suffer from a similar deceleration trauma?

There must be a long history of similar challenges…

Surprising there isn’t a decal on the side of the plane… caution handle with care… gyro instruments on board!   

See if @Alan Fox has experience in this area…

Best regards,

-a-

[NotarPilot]

I think this thread should be pinned just so potential used Avidyne customers are informed before making a regrettable purchase. Maybe pin this in the classified section as well.

[Frank B.]

I am happy to report that Avidyne respectfully done the right thing and posted their “Black List” policy on the website for all of the honest world to see. While I personally don’t agree with their policy, they obviously have every right to create what ever policy that they want.

But, one has to wonder now, how many certified aircraft are out there flying around with avionics that are no longer certified avionics. 
 

Its too bad that their policy doesn’t closer mimic Garmins policy where you could send the unit in and have it inspected, then return it to service although you only have to do that with a GARMIN unit if it has obvious damage or if it becomes in-op after an accident. There is no auto “Black List” with GARMIN.

Hopefully this thread saves someone from going through what I just went through by purchasing a “Black Listed” unit.

 

Frank

[tony]

Avidyne's policy is stupid.  Sounds to me like the lawyers were involved with it.  Do you think Avidyne has any idea the health of every semiconductors device they purchase from their distributors that gets installed in their units?  That's why every unit is goes through an ESS and ATP to declare it airworthy.  

This is ridiculous.  

Something happened at Avidyne in the last 5 years.  They are becoming more like Garmin everyday.  I think this is my last straw.  Dynon looks better and better all the time.  

Does Avidyne read this board? I hope they do.  Idiots......

Frank, thanks for posting this.  

[bmcconnaha]

29 minutes ago, tony said:

Avidyne's policy is stupid.  Sounds to me like the lawyers were involved with it.  Do you think Avidyne has any idea the health of every semiconductors device they purchase from their distributors that gets installed in their units?  That's why every unit is goes through an ESS and ATP to declare it airworthy.  

This is ridiculous.  

Something happened at Avidyne in the last 5 years.  They are becoming more like Garmin everyday.  I think this is my last straw.  Dynon looks better and better all the time.  

Does Avidyne read this board? I hope they do.  Idiots......

Frank, thanks for posting this.  

Dynon doesn’t have a certified waas navigation unit. So, I’m glad they look better and better to you everyday, but they don’t do the same things. If they could get their autopilot for Mooney’s done, they would look better to me too.  

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:52 AM, tony said:

Avidyne's policy is stupid.  Sounds to me like the lawyers were involved with it.  Do you think Avidyne has any idea the health of every semiconductors device they purchase from their distributors that gets installed in their units?  That's why every unit is goes through an ESS and ATP to declare it airworthy.  

This is ridiculous.  

Something happened at Avidyne in the last 5 years.  They are becoming more like Garmin everyday.  I think this is my last straw.  Dynon looks better and better all the time.  

Does Avidyne read this board? I hope they do.  Idiots......

Frank, thanks for posting this.  

Avidyne has had this policy for 20+ years going back to the Entegra.

The reason you hadn’t heard about it is that they do the right thing and individually take care of the customers when this happens. If they had screwed anyone over on Mooneyspace do you think you would have heard about it? For sure. Frank got every bit of his money back from the seller and had he been reasonable they would have taken care of him and he would be using the IFD 550 instead of the 530W. But he chose the nuclear option and starting blasting them on different sites. I understand why Avidyne does it. The next person that flies with a unit that was in an accident, or more likely their estate, even though the unit may very well be fine, will be naming Avidyne in a suit if anything goes bad, since they will pose the question in court as to whether the unit was the reason for the crash. They would rather retire that unit and start with one that has zero history to eliminate that plaintiff strategy. If their customer still owns that airplane then they very fairly work out a replacement. In doing so discreetly and fairly they didn’t attract the attention of all the plaintiff’s attorneys . .  Until of course now. 

[Frank B.]

5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Avidyne has had this policy for 20+ years going back to the Entegra.

The reason you hadn’t heard about it is that they do the right thing and individually take care of the customers when this happens. If they had screwed anyone over on Mooneyspace do you think you would have heard about it? For sure. Frank got every bit of his money back from the seller and had he been reasonable they would have taken care of him and he would be using the IFD 550 instead of the 530W. But he chose the nuclear option and starting blasting them on different sites. I understand why Avidyne does it. The next person that flies with a unit that was in an accident, even though the unit may very well be fine, will be naming them in a suit if anything goes bad, since they will the question in court as to whether the unit was the reason for the crash. They would rather retire that unit and start with one that has zero history to eliminate that strategy. If their customer still owns that airplane then they very fairly work out a replacement. In doing so discreetly and fairly they didn’t attract the attention of all the plaintiff’s attorneys . .  Until of course now. 

Lance,

Did you read the emails? I guess not. How were they going to take care of me? Please point that out to me? Second email they said “Black Listed” ! They did say “Sorry”. They offered to help me in NO WAY! But, they weren’t obligated to. I asked if I could get the unit inspected and get off of the black list and you saw what they said. How were they going to help me? I am glad that you are on limited aviation forums because you are contributing anything beneficial in the two forums that you are following. All you are doing is slandering me. You and I both know that this was not a published policy in any open forum until I posted it. And it wasn’t on Avidyne’s website until the 22nd, which was this past Tuesday after I posted it in several forums . Do you have anything POSITIVE or helpful to anyone to contribute that is in reference to the matter at hand or do you just get your jollies slandering me? Everyone read the emails and show me where I did one thing wrong . I potentially helped thousands of people. One other thing that you have wrong is I did loose. I obligated to sale my to GNS530’s that are pristine so now I am hung out to spend big bucks to replace them with like units. Granted I should have not obligated them until I got the two Avidyne’s installed and signed off but only a very select few knew about the “Dirty Little Secret” and I assumed I would be flying IFD’s by this weekend .

Back off of your personal attacks on me.

Frank

[ilovecornfields]

Frank,

 

I don’t know you very well but I’ve read @LANCECASPER’s posts for years and he has personally helped me more than once. He had always shown me to be a man of integrity and respect. I have to admit, I’m not getting the same vibe from you. We get you’re upset and on an internet-wide smear campaign to show them you’re not someone to be messed with. Sometimes though things can go a little too far.

When you start attacking well respected members of this forum and then play the victim any credibility you may have once had goes out the window and you come across as a narcissist who thinks he should get special treatment and throws a tantrum when that doesn’t happen. Not a good look.

Avidyne doesn’t owe you anything. You thought you were getting a good deal on used avionics and were wrong. They told you how to prevent that mistake in the future. Caveat emptor.  Time to mark this down under “lessons learned” and move on before we all add you to our “ignore” list. I don’t buy used panel-mounted avionics and when I buy ANYTHING on the internet I am fully prepared to lose that money. Sounds like you are still learning this lesson.

Even though I have a Garmin glass panel and have never considered Avidyne avionics I appreciated the sharing of information and some of the discussion this generated but, really, it’s time to stop.

Kind regards,

Lover of corn fields (and civil discussions)

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Frank B. said:

Back off of your personal attacks on me.

Frank

That is priceless coming from you . . lol

When I see an unreasonable person blast a company that I have had extremely good service from, I am going to speak up and defend people who bend over backwards to do what is right. A reasonable customer that wants a solution moves up the chain and talks to people at the company that have the power to do what's right and presents their case. If, after those efforts, the company doesn't do the right thing, then vote with your dollars and buy from another company. If you want to put a fair review online, go for it. But when you choose the thermonuclear option within hours and start exaggerating, blasting them on numerous sites and you've still never bought anything from them, the only reputation you permanently damage is yours. I bet that approach works wonders for you in your personal relationships.

Once again, over the years had Avidyne screwed people over you would have at least one person speaking up on here saying, "Yeah, that happened to me.". So far, crickets . . . nothing. Had you handled it differently they would have been fair with you in replacing the IFD550 and you have would enjoyed that along with the IFD100 app on your iPad. You got all of your money back, since the IFD550 is such a good product. Enjoy your Garmin 530W.

[Frank B.]

12 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Frank,

 

I don’t know you very well but I’ve read @LANCECASPER’s posts for years and he has personally helped me more than once. He had always shown me to be a man of integrity and respect. I have to admit, I’m not getting the same vibe from you. We get you’re upset and on an internet-wide smear campaign to show them you’re not someone to be messed with. Sometimes though things can go a little too far.

When you start attacking well respected members of this forum and then play the victim any credibility you may have once had goes out the window and you come across as a narcissist who thinks he should get special treatment and throws a tantrum when that doesn’t happen. Not a good look.

Avidyne doesn’t owe you anything. You thought you were getting a good deal on used avionics and were wrong. They told you how to prevent that mistake in the future. Caveat emptor.  Time to mark this down under “lessons learned” and move on before we all add you to our “ignore” list. I don’t buy used panel-mounted avionics and when I buy ANYTHING on the internet I am fully prepared to lose that money. Sounds like you are still learning this lesson.

Even though I have a Garmin glass panel and have never considered Avidyne avionics I appreciated the sharing of information and some of the discussion this generated but, really, it’s time to stop.

Kind regards,

Lover of corn fields (and civil discussions)

Lance has helped me also, a year or two ago with JPI, he steered me in the right direction when I bought a used EDM 930, and he had already been down that path, and I appreciate that. But, in my defense to your allegations that I attached Lance I would like to make it clear that I never attached him, I responded to him attacking me. I agree that he is a majorly positive contributor to this as well as at least one other forum that I am on so I guess that’s why is sort of knocked me out of my seat when he steered my threads off course and launched a personal attack on me for outing Avidyne’s policy.
I am glad that Lance has YOUR support though  in attacking me. Maybe you can be his self appointed keeper / house Mom just like he is for Avidyne.
I am not sorry that I outed Avidyne’s “Dirty Little Secret” and I guess Lance has the right to take up for Avidyne any way he sees fit and say what ever he wants about Avidyne, but when he has nothing positive to contribute to the thread and only responds to slander me and say that I was unreasonable in my approach is a matter of opinion and based on all of the support emails and DM’s that I have received I think that his opinion may not be the most popular opinion.

None the less, I would expose others big manufacturers secret policies as well if I thought it was going to save someone from going through what I have went through.

Since this thread has drifted so far or course, or should I say Lance successfully steered it away from the facts and turned it into a personal attack on me and how I handled the situation I don’t feel that much more constructive content can come out of it so I won’t be following or replying to this thread any longer. If Lance does like he has done on the other forums when I made this same “I am bowing out” announcement you can probably expect one more derogatory post, directed at me, from Lance for outing Avidyne’s “Dirty Little Secret” and I won’t respond so he can have the last word. I believe it’s very important to him to get the last word in weather it’s constructive or just more derogatory off topic comments about me. I hope that someday he can forgive me for outing Avidyne’s “Dirty Little Secret” .

I do want to make it clear though that I have absolutely zero regrets for outing Avidyne and I hope that I prevented someone else from going through this same ordeal as I have and potentially loosing their investment.

*** END OF STORY FOR ME ***

Thanks, Frank

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Frank B. said:

Lance has helped me also, a year or two ago with JPI, he steered me in the right direction when I bought a used EDM 930, and he had already been down that path, and I appreciate that. But, in my defense to your allegations that I attached Lance I would like to make it clear that I never attached him, I responded to him attacking me. I agree that he is a majorly positive contributor to this as well as at least one other forum that I am on so I guess that’s why is sort of knocked me out of my seat when he steered my threads off course and launched a personal attack on me for outing Avidyne’s policy.
I am glad that Lance has YOUR support though  in attacking me. Maybe you can be his self appointed keeper / house Mom just like he is for Avidyne.
I am not sorry that I outed Avidyne’s “Dirty Little Secret” and I guess Lance has the right to take up for Avidyne any way he sees fit and say what ever he wants about Avidyne, but when he has nothing positive to contribute to the thread and only responds to slander me and say that I was unreasonable in my approach is a matter of opinion and based on all of the support emails and DM’s that I have received I think that his opinion may not be the most popular opinion.

None the less, I would expose others big manufacturers secret policies as well if I thought it was going to save someone from going through what I have went through.

Since this thread has drifted so far or course, or should I say Lance successfully steered it away from the facts and turned it into a personal attack on me and how I handled the situation I don’t feel that much more constructive content can come out of it so I won’t be following or replying to this thread any longer. If Lance does like he has done on the other forums when I made this same “I am bowing out” announcement you can probably expect one more derogatory post, directed at me, from Lance for outing Avidyne’s “Dirty Little Secret” and I won’t respond so he can have the last word. I believe it’s very important to him to get the last word in weather it’s constructive or just more derogatory off topic comments about me. I hope that someday he can forgive me for outing Avidyne’s “Dirty Little Secret” .

I do want to make it clear though that I have absolutely zero regrets for outing Avidyne and I hope that I prevented someone else from going through this same ordeal as I have and potentially loosing their investment.

*** END OF STORY FOR ME ***

Thanks, Frank

@Frank B. I apologize if you felt attacked. I am a loyal person and when you handled it the way you did with Avidyne, I guess I took it personally. During the time I owned their products they were extremely good to me. They are a small enough company that I felt like I got personal assistance and attention. I've had to call Garmin a few times and when I finally did get to talk to someone they were helpful but I haven't ever felt the level of service that Avidyne provided. They are both good companies though.

My beef goes back to the way you started the post and the title the post. That felt like a blind-sided attack on them. They never hid this policy from their customers. I knew about it before I bought my first Avidyne IFD back in 2014, but later found out that it went back to the early 2000's. Their agreement had it in writing, which I read. It's been published in magazines (Aviation Consumer, Cirrus Owners magazine, possibly others). They've talked about it on webinars with customers. Your post title just implies that they were devious and malicious and nothing could be further from the truth in my experience. I just didn't feel like you gave them a chance to take care of you before you blasted them. I don't think that picking up the phone and going a little higher in their ranks would have cost you anything and I think you would have been pleased with the results. Also in fairness to you I've had a lot more time to think their  policy over and see it from their viewpoint than you have. Having their name on a box that may have been damaged isn't what they want. They would rather retire that unit and work out something fair towards a new unit without history. I can see where that is frustrating if you sell used avionics and didn't know about their policy. I also knew from their dealings with me that if that time ever came they would do the right thing and that the outcome would be fair.

I don't always succeed but I really try to treat the other person the way I would like to be treated. I just felt that you were treating them unfairly but maybe in the process on the flip side you think I wasn't fair with you. I am sorry if it came across that way - it wasn't my intention. Whenever I am wrong I like to be told. I don't have a chance of improving if it's not brought to my attention. Anyway, sincere best thoughts toward you and I hope we all learned something from this.

[ilovecornfields]

@Frank B., I’m not an attorney so I had to look this stuff up:

slan·der

/ˈslandər/

noun

LAW

the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

I did take a business law class one time and I think they said that as long as the statements you make are TRUE then it’s not slander.

Historically, the people I’ve met who throw that word around have tended to not be the victims of slander but instead seem to be suffering from a narcissistic injury and they throw that word around to make themselves seem like they’ve been horribly wronged when in fact the opposite is often true.

The statement “I didn’t attack X” shortly followed by several attacks on “X” doesn’t sit well with me either.

I’m certainly not @LANCECASPER’s “keeper/house mom”  (whatever that is) and he’s certainly capable of defending himself, but when I see truly bizarre behavior coming from someone I don’t know attacking someone I do then I sometimes comment on it. I think if someone had helped me out in the past and publicly disagreed with something I said then maybe I would try contacting them privately instead of throwing a bunch of wild accusations at them just because they disagree with me. That would almost border on slander…

[carusoam]

Use caution with the attack mode…

Certainly the vendor has a crummy method of advising people about their used avionics…

All MSers appreciate being in the know…

 

There are other avionics suppliers that seem to be worse about making it impossible to sell and buy their products pre-flown…

STCs that serial number specific….. 

One AP supplier has you send the whole AP to them to get re-certified…. A real jerk move…

Then… that same supplier doesn’t take the time to explain any of this to its potential customers…

 

Keep in mind all avionics suppliers have challenges over time… real annoying ones…

 

Do you know my favorite annoying AP supplier?

 

Try to not spread the annoyance as much as the important info…. 

 

MS will earn a reputation for vendor bashing…

If a vendor comes here and pushes the report button… the thread risks getting eliminated….

 

Things to consider….

Best regards,

-a-

[Frank B.]

17 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

@Frank B., I’m not an attorney so I had to look this stuff up:

slan·der

/ˈslandər/

noun

LAW

the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

I did take a business law class one time and I think they said that as long as the statements you make are TRUE then it’s not slander.

Historically, the people I’ve met who throw that word around have tended to not be the victims of slander but instead seem to be suffering from a narcissistic injury and they throw that word around to make themselves seem like they’ve been horribly wronged when in fact the opposite is often true.

The statement “I didn’t attack X” shortly followed by several attacks on “X” doesn’t sit well with me either.

I’m certainly not @LANCECASPER’s “keeper/house mom”  (whatever that is) and he’s certainly capable of defending himself, but when I see truly bizarre behavior coming from someone I don’t know attacking someone I do then I sometimes comment on it. I think if someone had helped me out in the past and publicly disagreed with something I said then maybe I would try contacting them privately instead of throwing a bunch of wild accusations at them just because they disagree with me. That would almost border on slander…

Now there is a really positive contribution to this thread. You have definitely contributed to the flying publics knowledge of Avidyne’s Black List policy which they now have posted on their website . I love it when a post stays on topic of the thread thread drift and doesn’t stray. Great Avidyne info there. BTW, Lance and I have spoken in private and we have no issue between us that I am aware of. Good luck on your Google Law Classes. I believe I saw a diploma that you can order pre graduation even for that course. 

[RobertGary1]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:45 PM, xcrmckenna said:

Well this is going to suck for anyone that buys my 201 now that it’s going to be sold as salvage. It has an IFD440. The plane without a doubt will fly again, because there are only a few dents in the leading edge of the pilot side wing and a few other minor areas. But the log books will be stamped with a salvage mark. Pretty sad.

My airplane was chilling minding its own business and a runaway hand propped 172 felt like it needed to occupy some of the same space as my hangar and throw said chunks of hangar all over my plane. It surely didn’t cause any damage to the IFD unit but I totally understand their concern.

For the foreseeable future I’m still 100% Avidyne fanboy and thanks to this thread if my next plane is involved in a crash with Avidyne avionics I will make sure the insurance adjuster is aware of the need to replace them in the quote.

Thanks for starting this thread. I still have no desire to put any garmin in my plane unless I had no better option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t think that counts under the rules since they said they’re using 830 rules to define accident 

[ilovecornfields]

6 hours ago, Frank B. said:

Now there is a really positive contribution to this thread. You have definitely contributed to the flying publics knowledge of Avidyne’s Black List policy which they now have posted on their website . I love it when a post stays on topic of the thread thread drift and doesn’t stray. Great Avidyne info there. BTW, Lance and I have spoken in private and we have no issue between us that I am aware of. Good luck on your Google Law Classes. I believe I saw a diploma that you can order pre graduation even for that course. 

I’m glad you were able to resolve your issues amicably without resorting to embarrassing public attacks on the forum. It was actually a Business Law class as part of an MBA program but I forgive you for your misrepresentations since you’ve already shown us that facts and rational arguments aren’t your forte. I’m glad you have accomplished your goals and will be moving on.

[Steve Dawson]

Frank you have an agenda. You haven't posted all the information on here that you did on BT so maybe you can update us on current your Avidyne asset status and how it came to be. You didn't have to slam Avidyne and the people that own Avidyne equipment to notify us of Avidyne's transparent (slightly hidden) policy. Why not just state that if you buy a used Avidyne product or any ones product to check before with the manufacturer on the status of that equipment. And to add that if someone has an accident or incident with their aircraft to make sure that their insurance covers that loss. 

Personally I would never buy anything off of you because your propensity to hide facts that maybe circumstantial to the buyers advantage. Sophistry!

As I stated on BT I think Avidyne has stepped up and given general aviation a huge advantage on choices. They've risked their funds, time, research and reputation to supply a very worthy competition to Garmin when a few others have backed away. I have had excellent service from Avidyne and Chase as well as our local avionics shop (Brant Areo).  

 

[Frank B.]

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I’m glad you were able to resolve your issues amicably without resorting to embarrassing public attacks on the forum. It was actually a Business Law class as part of an MBA program but I forgive you for your misrepresentations since you’ve already shown us that facts and rational arguments aren’t your forte. I’m glad you have accomplished your goals and will be moving on.

 

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I’m glad you were able to resolve your issues amicably without resorting to embarrassing public attacks on the forum. It was actually a Business Law class as part of an MBA program but I forgive you for your misrepresentations since you’ve already shown us that facts and rational arguments aren’t your forte. I’m glad you have accomplished your goals and will be moving on.

Well, I humbly bow to you Mr. MBA. Hats off. Poor dumb marginally successful  mechanical engineer here. I don’t carry a thesaurus with me and Siri is of no help in that dept either. I am glad that we have folks like you to keep folks like me in-line even if you operate under a cloak of secrecy. Why not fill out your profile and come out from under your rock? While you might be one of those little guys that fight fire with their mouth, educated sophisticated mouth, I am one of those guys that packs a substantial punch. Anyone in this forum that knows me will tell you that anything that I do, I typically do in a big way and I get attention if that’s what I am looking for. After what, seven emails with Avidyne guess what. BAM ….. I dropped the hammer. I got the word out to thousands of people and potentially saved people 10’s if not 100,000’s of thousands of dollars . As Avidyne said certain things trigger certain actions out of them, well, that last email where Mr. Frank Utter pointed out that he was the “Big Cheese”, that the buck stops with him and that he had “ruled” and made a “Final Decision” is when I shared their emails . If you go back and look at those emails even the “Big Cheese” didn’t agree with the “Little Cheese” about what triggers a “Black List” event . Since they wrote those emails I am not sure why they would have a problem with me getting the word out. All I did is share what they wrote . I am sorry if I hurt your little feelings. I don’t believe that our last two contributions to this forum helped anyone. I mean if it made you feel bette … alright then, so please feel free to post anything that you need to post to make yourself feel better … but I am done, or is that finished, anyway I am not going to read any more of your replies and  neither am I responding to them. 
 

Frank 

 

[Culver LFA]

As a very satisfied Avidyne owner, I just can’t imagine why Avidyne isn’t bending over backwards in this situation??? Oh...never mind, I think I got it now

[EricJ]

28 minutes ago, Culver LFA said:

As a very satisfied Avidyne owner, I just can’t imagine why Avidyne isn’t bending over backwards in this situation??? Oh...never mind, I think I got it now

Yeah, I'm a bigger fan of Avidyne now than before this thread started.

 

[jaylw314]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:12 AM, ilovecornfields said:

Historically, the people I’ve met who throw that word around have tended to not be the victims of slander but instead seem to be suffering from a narcissistic injury and they throw that word around to make themselves seem like they’ve been horribly wronged when in fact the opposite is often true.

Late to the game, but that seems like a pretty solid analysis to me

[rbp]

19 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

don’t include these radios on their insurance claims

the key point, regardless of who makes the equipment, is to check the status of the avionics when making an insurance claim