Canada Space Based ADS-B Starting in 2023 (Dirversity ADS-B)

[PeteMc]

Sure glad I opted for the GT345 Diversity unit when I did my panel...   I just got caught up on my AVWeb reading and it looks like Canada is going to start phasing in the Satellite based ADS-B they've been talking about in Feb 2023.  As I'm reading it, you'll need Diversity to fly above 12,500' or in Class B Airspace.  C, D & E airspace will be sometime around 2026 or later. 

So let's see, the check list for flying to Canada is getting bigger for those of us in the US.  Guess I should start reviewing what I need since it's been a few year.

• 3rd Class Medical or higher, no Basic Med (anyone heard if Canada has made any movement on accepting Basic Meds?)
• FCC Restricted RadioTelephone Operator Permit
• Diversity/Satellite ADS-B for flights above 12,500' (effective Feb 23, 2023)
• Passport
• Customs Appointment - via an App now I hear
• Anything else???

 

[RobertGary1]

It will be interesting if they require diversity for non Canadian registered. I doubt they will that would preclude most foreign aircraft. 

[PeteMc]

From what I've heard in the past (which is why I installed Diversity) and what I just read in this latest AVWeb article, yes, they will deny you. 

Article implied that a lot of the corporate aircraft already have or will have the antenna on top before the rule goes into affect next year.  No clue if it's true, but if it is, there's the money.  So they might care if those people started complaining, but if there already onboard, then GA squawking is not going to mean much.  

Remember that for now it is only up high and in Class B.  And maybe they'll give you a waver for Class B like they do here.  So a huge number of the GA flights will not be impacted until 2026 or later.  Not an absolute that Canada AOPA and other groups won't keep getting it pushed further.

Also, the relatively inexpensive tailBeacon X meets the requirements.  So you don't have to go full on Garmin GTX-345 Diversity if you don't want to.  (Assuming the tailBeacon X is finally released.)

 

[milotron]

I wonder how they will even know?  Our planes are pretty small and would be surprised that a bottom mounted antenna doesn't pick up at least some satellite coverage. I know mine is off to the side somewhat and not under the wing. Not like we are flying 737s...

As a Canadian, I am going to wait on this one a bit. We heard this story before, then it was moved back.

[Guest]

I installed a Lynx 9000+ with Diversity years ago, so I’m ready,  but I’m betting that the Canadian Owners &Pilots Association with fight it.

Clarence

[Ragsf15e]

The turboprop I fly for work (2015 PA-46T) is not diversity and we do fly it into Canada.  No way we could stay low.  This could get expensive.  Funny thing is the company is Canadian, although this airplane is based in the US.

[FlyingDude]

Everybody talks about it like it's big deal. Is it? How many AMUs? How can I verify if my equipment is compatible?

I really want to fly to Yellowknife and meet Buffalo Joe. Other than that, I'm not sure I'll need to fly there too often.

[ohdub]

The way I saw it worded by NAV Canada was class C, D and E "no sooner than 2026", so I think there is a reasonable chance that it will be later. Time will tell. I have a Lynx 9000D+ so I'm ready.

According to Google, a radio operator's permit is still required in Canada, but I haven't seen mine in a decade and no one has asked to see it since I had to show it when I was hired for ATC 26 years ago.

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, milotron said:

Our planes are pretty small and would be surprised that a bottom mounted antenna doesn't pick up at least some satellite coverage.

I'd actually be surprised if you did see the satellites with an antenna on the bottom of your plane.  At least not reliably.

It's not like the GPS network with ~30 satellites up there.

[milotron]

Perhaps, but there are 66 for ADSB so I would expect at least a couple to be visible to the antenna.

 

[Ragsf15e]

4 minutes ago, milotron said:

Perhaps, but there are 66 for ADSB so I would expect at least a couple to be visible to the antenna.

 

But it’s not that you just need a “sporadic” feed… aren’t they using it for actual atc up there?  They’re gonna want a continuous high quality track.

[hais]

57 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

I'd actually be surprised if you did see the satellites with an antenna on the bottom of your plane.  At least not reliably.

It's not like the GPS network with ~30 satellites up there.

One technique is discussed here :

 

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/9311-inverted-roll-in-j-model/

[carusoam]

Livened up Hais’ thread…

 

Throw in a loop every now and then…

PP humor only, not a real comedian….

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

But it’s not that you just need a “sporadic” feed… aren’t they using it for actual atc up there?  They’re gonna want a continuous high quality track.

You could be right, but the satellite network was intended for coverage of the desolate north outside of the busy airspace with good radar coverage. Given the time delays of the satellite system i’d think they would still be primarily relying on radar coverage when in range and just using the satellite coverage when needed …. so i wonder how important the dual diversity will be till one flys out of radar coverage.


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[FlyingDude]

Guys, what's needed to comply? A 0dB active splitter and yet another antenna on the roof? Can the existing gps antenna be used - (legally. Technically it's ok because the frequencies are close) Or must it be a device with 2 antenna ports?

How many AMUs?

How many kts TAS lost?

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

We installed diversity Mode S several years ago by swapping a GTX33ES with a GTX33DES which used the same rack and wiring. The only additional installation needed was the coaxial connector, cable and the top antenna.   

[Jerry 5TJ]

Question: Is there an ICAO flight plan equipment code for diversity Mode S?  

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

so i wonder how important the dual diversity will be till one flys out of radar coverage.

I don't think they're investing in the Ground Stations like the US did.  So the primary signal is Satellite and then possibly augmented at some key airports with Ground Stations. 

This is based off an article I read a few years ago, but even the recent AVWeb article mentioned "...Nav Canada suggests that the U.S. is the outlier when it comes to ADS-B because the rest of the world is going with space-based systems...."

[ohdub]

10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

But it’s not that you just need a “sporadic” feed… aren’t they using it for actual atc up there?  They’re gonna want a continuous high quality track.

My understanding is that they studied data they were getting from bottom mounted antenna in the hope of not needing to mandate diversity. While the satellites do receive broadcasts from them, they aren't consistent enough to be used for separation.

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Guys, what's needed to comply? A 0dB active splitter and yet another antenna on the roof? Can the existing gps antenna be used - (legally. Technically it's ok because the frequencies are close) Or must it be a device with 2 antenna ports?

How many AMUs?

How many kts TAS lost?

 

an entirely new ads-b box. Most of the existing ones Garmin etc do not support diversity. 

[PeteMc]

12 hours ago, milotron said:

but there are 66 for ADSB

Actually did not know it was going to be part of the Iridium NEXT system.  Thought it was going to be on a different system with only a few satellites. 

Technically you could do it with only a few satellites, but obviously more satellites means much more coverage.  And yes, the possibility of the belly antenna working is very likely at altitude.  But Canada has some pretty mountainous/hilly areas.  So as you descend into a lot of airports, your signal would still be lost.  So we're back to the reliability issue for the signal.

It will be interesting to see what studies determine.

 

(And where in E WA??)

 

[65MooneyPilot]

To my knowledge the space system is based on having 1090ES transponder. The airplanes I flew in the airlines and any airplane that flies above 18,000 is required to have 1090ES. We also had ADS-C for over water flights. If we had space based in America, we most likely would not have TIS and FIS which are broadcast on the 978UAT Frequency.  I installed a 1090ES transponder but I really like the traffic and weather from ADS-B in. 

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, 65MooneyPilot said:

If we had space based in America, we most likely would not have TIS and FIS

What are the other countries that are Space Based doing for TIS & FIS?

My transponder is both.  I have not looked, but are there a lot of 1090ES ONLY transponders?  Or are most dual?

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Actually did not know it was going to be part of the Iridium NEXT system.  Thought it was going to be on a different system with only a few satellites. 

That is interesting.   I've done a fair amount of work on the Iridium NEXT system.   The constellation is denser near the poles, so that should help a little.

[ohdub]

2 hours ago, PeteMc said:

What are the other countries that are Space Based doing for TIS & FIS?

My transponder is both.  I have not looked, but are there a lot of 1090ES ONLY transponders?  Or are most dual?

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the "out" part of any transponder is single band, it's only the "in" that is dual band.

Canada doesn't have TIS or FIS, except when you're close enough to the border to receive the US broadcast. Although there is company that has installed some FIS stations at various airports that want them, my home field being one of them, so wherever they are, you get it.