Which ads-b?

[Wildhorsetrail]

So the Mooney I'm planning to buy needs ads-b. I'd also like to update it with a GPS 175. I am familiar with the uavionix sky beacon which is super easy and quick to install. I understand the GDL 88 interfaces with the GPS 175. I'm considering whether to go with the quick and easy uavionix ads-b out, or the more complicated GDL 88 installation that will interface nicely with the GPS 175 and provide ads-b in, out, and weather. Anyone with experience on how well the GDL 88 works and complexity of install?

 

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[Ragsf15e]

Gnx375 is another good option so you’ll have it all in one box.

[carusoam]

Plan two routes…

Because that first year of ownership can turn out pretty tricky…

1) Pay the minimal amount to get past the ADSB out mandate…. To fly the plane…

2) Get a fully integrated WAAS system that combines the ADSB out…

3) Find the all in one box that does everything you need… to minimize changing the whole panel…

4) Avoid installing one box at a time… lots of extra costs come with just getting ready each time… often delayed one year at a time for annual….

 

If you get what you expected…

You have plenty of dough left over…

If you get a surprise… you haven’t spent all the dough you had….

 

Think as far down the road as possible…  

Best regards,

-a-

[201Mooniac]

GDL-88 works great but the complexity of the install doesn't seem to make it worth it.  I did it before there were really any other serious options.

[0TreeLemur]

When I first looked into it, I asked for Garmin.   They were back ordered during the height of the ADS-B install boom.   Installer recommended the Appareo ES transponder for ADS-B out which came with the Stratus 2i for ADS-B/FISB in.  It was cheaper and available, so that's what we did.  The transponder gets its position info from the Garmin 430W, and the Stratus uses the transponder antenna.  Stratus provides position info to other devices using wifi.   It's a clean solution, with the Stratus installed behind the panel.  Today you would get a Stratus 3i.  Something to consider.  We've had it since 2018 with no problems.

[carusoam]

Parts of the homework….

1) What do you have for a transponder?

2) What do you have as a WAAS position source?

3) What are the objectives of the install…

• CB solution (lowest installed cost to get by)
• Livable solution (willing to pay more to have something usable for the future long term panel)

 

4) There are a few ways to get an all in one box….

5) There are a few Big G boxes to select from if you have WAAS and a good transponder already…

6) There are a few big G boxes to select from if you don’t have a WAAS source…

7) …and others if you want ADSB in to go with that…

8) I think the GDL52 box has its own WAAS source, mounts remotely, and uses a standard modern transponder for rebroadcast…

 

Think out loud… share your thoughts…. What do you have, what don’t you have?

Where do you want to be in a few years….  

Best regards,

-a-

[Wildhorsetrail]

The transponder is an old KT-76A. There is no WAAS source at this point. I hesitate to put all my money into one box, otherwise I might go with the GNX 375. But if it fails I lose gps navigation, transponder, and ads-b out all in one fell swoop. I would prefer to go a little more piecemeal, which is why I lean toward Uavionix. This would also allow me to upgrade some things more slowly, spread out the cashflow, AND give me some time to develop a better idea of what my long term needs are.

[kortopates]

i don’t think they sell new GDL-88’s anymore. there outdated. The hot box has been the GTX-345 for several years.


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[carusoam]

See what @Alan Fox has to upgrade the KT76A…. There are some modern devices that slip into the old tray….

I had a KT76A that went bad during Mooney Summit… a few years back… Alan was carrying spares of a much newer version… (my lucky day)

Some transponders are too old to be the link in the re-broadcast scheme…

So… I came away with a digital push button solution to replace the backwards spinning knobs…. (Turn left to go higher?)

Go pre-flown modern avionics… good stuff at a lower cost….  

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

Nothing is easier or less obtrusive than the Tailbeacon, it works fine with a 76A, although the 76C is a slide in replacement and is available used for cheap.

The tailbeacon is standalone and install is a joke, stupidly it’s a 337 though, but then I’m sure they all are for some reason

[LANCECASPER]

10 hours ago, Wildhorsetrail said:

 

So the Mooney I'm planning to buy needs ads-b. I'd also like to update it with a GPS 175. I am familiar with the uavionix sky beacon which is super easy and quick to install. I understand the GDL 88 interfaces with the GPS 175. I'm considering whether to go with the quick and easy uavionix ads-b out, or the more complicated GDL 88 installation that will interface nicely with the GPS 175 and provide ads-b in, out, and weather. Anyone with experience on how well the GDL 88 works and complexity of install?

Just an observation  .  . . we are more than two years past the ads-b deadline (1/1/2020). If the present owner didn't do ads-b what other things haven't they been doing? A thorough pre-buy on this one by someone who really knows Mooneys may prevent you from en ding up with a money pit.

[N9405V]

I’ve got the tail beacon/KT-76A combination on my plane. Works great and is a very inexpensive option to meet the adsb requirements. Install literally takes about 5 minutes if you don’t drop a wire down into the tail one.


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[MMsuper21]

I like supporting the smaller guys but with 25 employees Uavionix is a mixed bag. I wanted the AV 30 but read about too many issues. 

Garmin has robots twisting their avionics knobs millions of times testing endurance. Nothing is bug free but chances are lower with the big budget guys. Garmin being international they comply not only with the FAA standards but other global ones. 

My plane came with the ESG with a stratus for adsb in which works fine. But I wish I had a Garmin device for gps source for something like the GI 275 or G5 engine monitor etc. 

My vote would be GNX 375 

[RLCarter]

3 of us on the field went with the Garmin GDL-82 for ADS-B out and 2 went the UAVIONIX tail beacon route. All 5 of us wanted the Sky Beacon for “Out” but they stopped trying to get the Sky Sensor certified for the “In”. The UAVIONIX is very easy to install but you have to have you “Nav” lights on all the time or re-wire to supply power with out running the wingtip lights, you will also need an iPhone or iPad to program them. Plan on a long day (or 2) to install the Garmin GDL-82, it mounts on the avionics rack in the tail on the Mooney and you’ll need a laptop to program the Garmin. There are several portable boxes for the “In” that will give you traffic/weather on a tablet…. I came real close to installing the certified Sky Beacon on my Mooney with the matching non-certified for the “In” on the other side, which would have given me wingtip strobes which it didn’t have

[LANCECASPER]

I’ve seen a lot of people who did the skybeacon or tail beacon later take it out and do something else (maybe after an older transponder failure?). In that case they paid twice for ads-b, however at least they were able to recoup 2/3 of their investment selling the Uavionix device. Although it’s a tough pill to swallow, if you can do it it’s better to do it once, do ads-b in and out, and never look back. My vote for @Wildhorsetrail is the Garmin GNX375. You get a WAAS GPS, solid state transponder and ads-b in and out with Bluetooth streaming for the ipad. It’s one of the few good deals in avionics. 

[David Lloyd]

All that Lance said about the 375.  One install, does a bunch, talks to your iPad and other stuff for later.  Get rid of the old.  And that is why I have a 375.

[skoozey]

8 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

 My iPhone gets a GPS fix almost instantly.

No doubt the iPhone has a faster GPS algorithm, but keep in mind it's also cell assisted, wifi assisted and makes SW assumptions (ie based on last known position.) It also has no qualms about calling your "fix" before it's finished finding satellites. The aircraft systems may be flawed, but they will never be as fast as we might expect from phones.

[MikeOH]

Another happy TailBeacon owner.  Been working for just over 2 years.

I just couldn't accept paying more than the 2 AMUs it cost me for a system that I didn't want in the first place!  I already had ADS-B In via Scout ($200) on my iPad/Foreflight.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard skoozey!

Great first post!

Best regards,

-a-

[Vance Harral]

12 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Just an observation  .  . . we are more than two years past the ads-b deadline (1/1/2020). If the present owner didn't do ads-b what other things haven't they been doing? A thorough pre-buy on this one by someone who really knows Mooneys may prevent you from en ding up with a money pit.

Caution is appropriate, and a thorough pre-buy is always a good idea.  But lack of ADS-B in 2022 is arguably less likely to be indicative of a poor maintenance attitude than other "deferrals".

A number of aircraft owners simply don't want to be tracked, don't fly in rule airspace, and therefore don't need or want ADS-B.  I'm not one of them, but I know some.  I think those of us who like ADS-B and/or live in big metro areas, tend to forget there are still huge swaths of airspace where ADS-B isn't required even after the 2020 deadline.  In general, it's not required in Class E airspace outside the lateral boundaries of Class B/C, up to 10K MSL.  Quite a lot of country falls in that category.  Not sure where the OP is buying his airplane, but if it's based out of, say, some small town in the midwest, the lack of ADS-B doesn't necessarily mean the current owner doesn't care for the airplane.

[Brent]

12 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Same here.  My only complaint with my TailBeacon is that I have to sit still before taxiing for at least five minutes to give the thing time to get a good GPS fix or I will have a low percentage NIC failure on my PAPR, which I run after every flight.  My solution was to move the transponder and TailBeacon up to the very top of my after starting engine checklist, but it still seems a little ridiculous to me these days.  My iPhone gets a GPS fix almost instantly. This is both a known issue and the recommended solution according to Uavionix’s Qualified Installer Guide to Understanding PAPR Failures.  

As the supervised installer, configuring my TailBeacon’s threshold for pairing with my transponder also took a little trial and error, but once the proper percentage was established that has been bulletproof.  

Does everyone routinely run PAPRs and know if they are failing?  I have only had one low percentage NIC failure since I learned not to taxi too soon.  What are the consequences of this kind of PAPR failure anyway?   ATC doesn’t seem to notice the difference, but I want my equipment to meet performance standards.  

https://uavionix.com/downloads/QI/training/QI-Guide-to-Understanding-PAPR-Failures.pdf

I was experiencing PAPR failures not long after I got my plane in late 2017. I didn't know it until I got a registered letter from the FAA - except I wasn't home when the mail came on a Friday, so I had to wait and wonder until the following Monday. New airplane owner, recent instrument rating - what was this all about? Anyway, it was the PAPR failure notification. Replaced the altitude encoder and updated firmware on the GNS 430 and GTX 330ES transponder. Everything worked fine after that. More recently, I ran a PAPR last week to verify new avionics. No red blocks.  

[A64Pilot]

My tailbeacon has been flawless, My ADSB in is though a GDL-39, the GDL-39 of course also functions as a GPS source and ADSB in data for Foreflight on my Ipad, it’s connected to a 696, and it’s easily removed to be put in my C-140 if I wanted to.

As much as possible especially with Garmin, I’d rather if possible use portable devices as Garmin seems to have a habit of orphaning devices

So far as I know I’ve had no problems with my tailbeacon, but I leave all lights on all of the time, so it powers up with the Master, so maybe that’s why?

I’ve never run a PAPR though, but assume I’d get a letter if it weren’t operating correctly.

Edited February 5, 2022 by A64Pilot