Need advice / sharing my concerns with someone

[Will.iam]

The fact that Don is restoring the predator mooney that hasn’t flown in like a decade and was a one off special and he has a M22 mustang pressurized mooney that he is also restoring back to airworthiness shows the type of unusual circumstances and problems Don has to work through with the FAA to even get these airplanes going again. So replacing a spar on a wing of a mooney should be a piece of cake in comparison. It’s more of the question of the price to get there that can be the prohibitive part. 

[T. Peterson]

On 1/7/2022 at 6:55 PM, MikeOH said:

Ah, yes.  Just what I thought....a first time buyer, not an expert on Mooneys, pays to have an 'expert' examine the plane.  After the fact, he's told, by internet cognoscenti that, in effect, it's his fault for not telling the 'expert' what to look for????

GMAFB!

Just don't wonder why GA keeps shrinking and doesn't attract new pilots.  We are our own worst enemy, I'm afraid.

Absolutely!

The fellow or gal that sold the airplane should take it back.

[Will.iam]

Any update? Did you finally get to fly your mooney?

[redbaron1982]

5 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Any update? Did you finally get to fly your mooney?

Yes.

[PeteMc]

Hopefully it all ultimately worked out okay!!!  And with lots of great flights in the future the agony of the ordeal with start to fade away. 

If you care to share any  of the final details, it might be a good learning experience for the rest of us.  (But get you may not want to revisit it yet again...)

 

[redbaron1982]

12 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Hopefully it all ultimately worked out okay!!!  And with lots of great flights in the future the agony of the ordeal with start to fade away. 

If you care to share any  of the final details, it might be a good learning experience for the rest of us.  (But get you may not want to revisit it yet again...)

 

I already did so, but had to delete the post because fellow MSers didn't want to hear negative things about some shops. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by redbaron1982

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I already did so, but had to delete the post because fellow MSers didn't want to hear negative things about some shops. 

Yeah, that pissed me off! The aversion to negative vendor reports is baffling to me. Somehow the ‘blame’ is nearly always levied on the customer while simultaneously defending the vendor! Unbelievable!

[Pinecone]

Ignore those people.

If they have good experiences, they can post that in counter.  But your experience is what you experienced and many people want to hear that.

[Kesk]

Checking for corrosion is something that should absolutely be covered by a prebuy. That's probably the most important thing because it can scrap the airplane. Even an engine overhaul is minor compared to that. Especially on Mooneys as they are generally a bit older. If I had to prebuy a Diamond DA20, I could do it in a few hours and tell you everything wrong with it, the only unknown would be wing attach bearings and even those you can feel out by moving the wing. Mooneys are closer to Pipers than 172s or other planes to me, there's a lot more to look at.

We had a shop out in Florida do a prebuy for one of our PA-28s. I don't know exactly what the report was but it seemed like nothing major. Plane came in full of mold in the interior and with the middle bolt on the nose gear torque link not even tightened down. They sued the place but I don't know what came of it. Also, at some point a 100 hour found large damage on the RH wing internally and it had to be fixed by Straight Flight.

We've also had a prebuy miss a crumpled firewall from a hard landing. It really is a crapshoot and if you are not basically performing an annual you really don't know what state an aircraft is in. I'm talking seats pulled, every panel opened, every system checked, thorough check-flight, just the whole nine yards. Even when you do, people miss stuff. In cases like yours though the MSC really should accept some form of responsibility, although of course they won't. 

 

Edited February 20, 2024 by Kesk

[Schllc]

42 minutes ago, Kesk said:

Checking for corrosion is something that should absolutely be covered by a prebuy. That's probably the most important thing because it can scrap the airplane. Even an engine overhaul is minor compared to that. Especially on Mooneys as they are generally a bit older. If I had to prebuy a Diamond DA20, I could do it in a few hours and tell you everything wrong with it, the only unknown would be wing attach bearings and even those you can feel out by moving the wing. Mooneys are closer to Pipers than 172s or other planes to me, there's a lot more to look at.

We had a shop out in Florida do a prebuy for one of our PA-28s. I don't know exactly what the report was but it seemed like nothing major. Plane came in full of mold in the interior and with the middle bolt on the nose gear torque link not even tightened down. They sued the place but I don't know what came of it. Also, at some point a 100 hour found large damage on the RH wing internally and it had to be fixed by Straight Flight.

We've also had a prebuy miss a crumpled firewall from a hard landing. It really is a crapshoot and if you are not basically performing an annual you really don't know what state an aircraft is in. I'm talking seats pulled, every panel opened, every system checked, thorough check-flight, just the whole nine yards. Even when you do, people miss stuff. In cases like yours though the MSC really should accept some form of responsibility, although of course they won't. 

 

I have a very different take on the “prebuy” to be honest. 
I have never done one on any of the 11 planes I have purchased. 
To qualify this, most of them were relatively new, which is probably less likely to have issues but not immune.  I read so many horror stories about what was missed at a prebuy, and how the guy doing it should have known this or that… But you look at what is charged for these inspections and do the math.  How much can they really look at for $2500 and still make any money?  Things get missed all the time, even at annuals. 

I am NOT saying that performing a prebuy is foolish or unnecessary, I am saying it helps to consider all perspectives to set proper expectations. I do a detailed logbook review myself.  The logs say a lot about how a plane was cared for, both in the facilities frequented, the quality of the entry and the type of work done.  This is of course not foolproof, but what you are trying to do when you buy a plane is mitigate, not  eliminate risk. I prefer to speak to the owners and ask very pointed and specific questions to guage  their knowledge and understanding of their aircraft.  I also want a plane that is flying regularly.  It seems reasonable to assume that if an owner is willing to get in that plane and fly it weekly, there is a high probability that they are concerned enough for their life to maintain it properly.  I also borescope and run the engine myself. I am not an A&P or an IA, but I am very familiar with engines, and have rebuilt boat, car and motorcycle engines, and I know more that the average guy about the engines in my planes, which includes the ones I want to buy!

Basically buying a plane is like buying fruits or vegetables, you squeeze it, sniff it, look at it under the light, but until you bite into it, you’re not 100% sure of what you’re getting.   You aren’t able to return it once you do, and you aren’t going to get anywhere suing the grocery store. 
I’m sure there are some shops who have not done what was required, but for your own benefit, understand what you are paying for, and if you think you need a more thorough inspection, don’t shop for the cheapest guy, and educate yourself and be your own advocate. 
I suppose you could say I have been lucky and have not really gotten burned, but I’m sure my own due diligence played a part. 

[Shadrach]

21 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I have a very different take on the “prebuy” to be honest. 
I have never done one on any of the 11 planes I have purchased. 
To qualify this, most of them were relatively new, which is probably less likely to have issues but not immune.  I read so many horror stories about what was missed at a prebuy, and how the guy doing it should have known this or that… But you look at what is charged for these inspections and do the math.  How much can they really look at for $2500 and still make any money?  Things get missed all the time, even at annuals. 

I am NOT saying that performing a prebuy is foolish or unnecessary, I am saying it helps to consider all perspectives to set proper expectations. I do a detailed logbook review myself.  The logs say a lot about how a plane was cared for, both in the facilities frequented, the quality of the entry and the type of work done.  This is of course not foolproof, but what you are trying to do when you buy a plane is mitigate, not  eliminate risk. I prefer to speak to the owners and ask very pointed and specific questions to guage  their knowledge and understanding of their aircraft.  I also want a plane that is flying regularly.  It seems reasonable to assume that if an owner is willing to get in that plane and fly it weekly, there is a high probability that they are concerned enough for their life to maintain it properly.  I also borescope and run the engine myself. I am not an A&P or an IA, but I am very familiar with engines, and have rebuilt boat, car and motorcycle engines, and I know more that the average guy about the engines in my planes, which includes the ones I want to buy!

Basically buying a plane is like buying fruits or vegetables, you squeeze it, sniff it, look at it under the light, but until you bite into it, you’re not 100% sure of what you’re getting.   You aren’t able to return it once you do, and you aren’t going to get anywhere suing the grocery store. 
I’m sure there are some shops who have not done what was required, but for your own benefit, understand what you are paying for, and if you think you need a more thorough inspection, don’t shop for the cheapest guy, and educate yourself and be your own advocate. 
I suppose you could say I have been lucky and have not really gotten burned, but I’m sure my own due diligence played a part. 

This statement is hilarious in its obvious distance from physical work. Good for you! You’ve made it when you think that two days worth of work wouldn’t reveal anything significant about an airframe or that two days worth of work isn’t worth $2500. Shockingly there are professionals who think such a pittance is reasonable compensation for a few days of turning screws, wrenches and using a flashlight and a mirror.

[redbaron1982]

Guys, I'm still trying to recover from this (could have a nice avionics upgrade or new paint, but instead, I had to fix corrosion (and so many others) issues).

Don't keep bringing this topic back! Lol!

My 2 cents after this year is, next time I'm not sure I'm doing a prebuy, I might, but I'm not going to expect them to find everything. I will go myself with a borescope, open up every single inspection panel, and look inside. How long can it take? 2 to 3 hours? Is not invasive, so I would expect the owner to be ok with it, and I think it would catch major issues.

Would do the same with the engine, borescope all cylinders.

[DCarlton]

23 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Guys, I'm still trying to recover from this (could have a nice avionics upgrade or new paint, but instead, I had to fix corrosion (and so many others) issues).

Don't keep bringing this topic back! Lol!

My 2 cents after this year is, next time I'm not sure I'm doing a prebuy, I might, but I'm not going to expect them to find everything. I will go myself with a borescope, open up every single inspection panel, and look inside. How long can it take? 2 to 3 hours? Is not invasive, so I would expect the owner to be ok with it, and I think it would catch major issues.

Would do the same with the engine, borescope all cylinders.

I'd actually like to find a camera on a short stick (like a short selfie stick) to use to play real time or record to a laptop or IPAD for visual inspections.  Something with better wide angle imagery than a borescope and something that gives you a better perspective than mirrors.  Wondering what the pros use ? Plan to look for something soon.  

[Schllc]

33 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

This statement is hilarious in its obvious distance from physical work. Good for you! You’ve made it when you think that two days worth of work wouldn’t reveal anything significant about an airframe or that two days worth of work isn’t worth $2500. Shockingly there are professionals who think such a pittance is reasonable compensation for a few days of turning screws, wrenches and using a flashlight and a mirror.

Let me try to clarify what I meant…

$2500 for a highly skilled mechanic for two days is not a lot of money, and I don’t mean it isn’t a lot of money to me.  
I think you may be the one distanced from physical labor, or at least distanced from what it costs today.  The skilled labor I have in my company makes around $65 per hour, put fica, ssi, workers comp, unemployment insurance, sick time/vacation, uniforms, tools, supplies etc on top of that and my overhead burden is close to $100 an hour.  I’d bet a good A&P is costing a competent shop in the same neighborhood.  This is not including profit, or contingency for mistakes either!

I also didn’t say a prebuy was not worth doing, I said understand what you are paying for, and  $2,500 just isn’t much for what most seem to be expecting. 
 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

Let me try to clarify what I meant…

$2500 for a highly skilled mechanic for two days is not a lot of money, and I don’t mean it isn’t a lot of money to me.  
I think you may be the one distanced from physical labor, or at least distanced from what it costs today.  The skilled labor I have in my company makes around $65 per hour, put fica, ssi, workers comp, unemployment insurance, sick time/vacation, uniforms, tools, supplies etc on top of that and my overhead burden is close to $100 an hour.  I’d bet a good A&P is costing a competent shop in the same neighborhood.  This is not including profit, or contingency for mistakes either!

I also didn’t say a prebuy was not worth doing, I said understand what you are paying for, and  $2,500 just isn’t much for what most seem to be expecting. 
 

I’m certain that my business is nowhere near as successful as yours. Perhaps because I have my hands in so many things. People who know me would tell you that I am too hands on with many aspects of my personal life. Likely to my detriment. I’m spread pretty thin but I am trying to be better.  

I think your labor cost numbers for a skilled mechanic are are a little on the high side given shop rates nationally range from $95 to $130. (It’s criminal that auto shop rates are higher).

A pretty detailed airframe inspection can be done in a few days. I think most shops would be pleased if an A&P could generate $1250 a day for inspection work. And I know that a one man operation would be thrilled. At 235 work days a year that’d be ~300k gross. I don’t know any IAs that are making that and many would be pleased to do half of that.

I think we should do away with prebuys as we know them and just focus on detailed corrosion inspections. 

[Austintatious]

4 hours ago, Schllc said:

Let me try to clarify what I meant…

$2500 for a highly skilled mechanic for two days is not a lot of money, and I don’t mean it isn’t a lot of money to me.  
I think you may be the one distanced from physical labor, or at least distanced from what it costs today.  The skilled labor I have in my company makes around $65 per hour, put fica, ssi, workers comp, unemployment insurance, sick time/vacation, uniforms, tools, supplies etc on top of that and my overhead burden is close to $100 an hour.  I’d bet a good A&P is costing a competent shop in the same neighborhood.  This is not including profit, or contingency for mistakes either!

I also didn’t say a prebuy was not worth doing, I said understand what you are paying for, and  $2,500 just isn’t much for what most seem to be expecting. 
 

Really?  $2500.00 for 2 days isn't a lot of money?   If we are talking 8 hr days that is 16 hours @ $156.25 an hour.  That is a $300,000 dollar a year salary.  That is top 5% wage earnings in the USA....

I dont think it is unreasonable to expect to pay 2500.00 for a PPI, but I also think it is a chunk of money... I could fly my airplane for about 15 hours for that amount of money.  And if in said PPI they cant be bothered to look for serious show stoppers like spar corrosion, engine issues, structural damage.... then the 2500 is little more than a ripoff.

Seems simple to me... start with the big expensive to fix stuff... check that out thoroughly before you move on to writing up that the carpet is wrinkled in the back.

 

[Justin Schmidt]

One must be able to understand labor, overhead, and business financials.

[DCarlton]

I took my wife’s Porsche into the dealer a few weeks ago for routine service.  The fully burdened shop rate is now $310 per hour.  Couldn’t believe it.  I thought $240 an hour was insane territory.  It makes aircraft maintenance feel like a bargain even at CA shop rates.  For a half days work plan on $1200 if you have a $100 coupon.  

[Kesk]

8 hours ago, Schllc said:

I have a very different take on the “prebuy” to be honest. 
I have never done one on any of the 11 planes I have purchased. 
To qualify this, most of them were relatively new, which is probably less likely to have issues but not immune.  I read so many horror stories about what was missed at a prebuy, and how the guy doing it should have known this or that… But you look at what is charged for these inspections and do the math.  How much can they really look at for $2500 and still make any money?  Things get missed all the time, even at annuals. 

I am NOT saying that performing a prebuy is foolish or unnecessary, I am saying it helps to consider all perspectives to set proper expectations. I do a detailed logbook review myself.  The logs say a lot about how a plane was cared for, both in the facilities frequented, the quality of the entry and the type of work done.  This is of course not foolproof, but what you are trying to do when you buy a plane is mitigate, not  eliminate risk. I prefer to speak to the owners and ask very pointed and specific questions to guage  their knowledge and understanding of their aircraft.  I also want a plane that is flying regularly.  It seems reasonable to assume that if an owner is willing to get in that plane and fly it weekly, there is a high probability that they are concerned enough for their life to maintain it properly.  I also borescope and run the engine myself. I am not an A&P or an IA, but I am very familiar with engines, and have rebuilt boat, car and motorcycle engines, and I know more that the average guy about the engines in my planes, which includes the ones I want to buy!

Basically buying a plane is like buying fruits or vegetables, you squeeze it, sniff it, look at it under the light, but until you bite into it, you’re not 100% sure of what you’re getting.   You aren’t able to return it once you do, and you aren’t going to get anywhere suing the grocery store. 
I’m sure there are some shops who have not done what was required, but for your own benefit, understand what you are paying for, and if you think you need a more thorough inspection, don’t shop for the cheapest guy, and educate yourself and be your own advocate. 
I suppose you could say I have been lucky and have not really gotten burned, but I’m sure my own due diligence played a part. 

I think it really depends on the plane and who you have to prebuy. No doubt a lot of guys out there want free money with no strings attached, you want someone truly experienced for a prebuy or it aint worth a whole lot. However on a 60s or 70s aircraft...might be worth it. You can possibly negotiate down just looking over it yourself so it's an easier sale.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I took my wife’s Porsche into the dealer a few weeks ago for routine service.  The fully burdened shop rate is now $310 per hour.  Couldn’t believe it.  I thought $240 an hour was insane territory.  It makes aircraft maintenance feel like a bargain even at CA shop rates.  For a half days work plan on $1200 if you have a $100 coupon.  

Dealers are for warranty work only in my opinion. I will give a hat tip to Porsche of Marin (formerly Sonnen Porsche). They are one of the best dealerships in the country. Competitive parts pricing and honest and transparent on labor. Definitely not inexpensive. Comes with the territory. Porsche is one of the most profitable auto brands in the world. Quite a turn around from the 90s when they nearly folded.

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, Kesk said:

I think it really depends on the plane and who you have to prebuy. No doubt a lot of guys out there want free money with no strings attached, you want someone truly experienced for a prebuy or it aint worth a whole lot. However on a 60s or 70s aircraft...might be worth it. You can possibly negotiate down just looking over it yourself so it's an easier sale.

Corrosion is cruel and it really does not care if the airframe was made 20 years ago or 50 years ago. Mooney did upgrade the coatings for the steel cage in later years. I stripped and resealed most of ours in two part zinc epoxy. Probably good for another 50 years.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Dealers are for warranty work only in my opinion. I will give a hat tip to Porsche of Marin (formerly Sonnen Porsche). They are one of the best dearerships in the country. Competitive parts pricing and honest and transparent on labor. Definitely not inexpensive. Comes with the territory. Porsche is one of the most profitable auto brands in the world. Quite a turn around from the 90s when they nearly folded.

I expect any business with "Marin" in the name to be the most expensive.

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I expect any business with "Marin" in the name to be the most expensive.

You would think that would be the case? However, there are some long established gems in that area. I live on the East coast now but have ordered dealer only parts from Porsche Marin for shipment to Maryland because they were more competitive than my local dealer just 30 miles away...even with shipping. 

There is also a tire shop called Cains in San Rafael that did the best custom alignment and Road Force balance I've ever had. They exceeded expectations in all areas except pricing.  Just like in aviation, it's good to know the lay of the local service provider landscape. Going in blind can burn you badly... 

[201Mooniac]

17 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I took my wife’s Porsche into the dealer a few weeks ago for routine service.  The fully burdened shop rate is now $310 per hour.  Couldn’t believe it.  I thought $240 an hour was insane territory.  It makes aircraft maintenance feel like a bargain even at CA shop rates.  For a half days work plan on $1200 if you have a $100 coupon.  

Shop rate at my local Porsche dealer is now $450/hr.  I no longer use them for my maintenance.

[Shadrach]

32 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Shop rate at my local Porsche dealer is now $450/hr.  I no longer use them for my maintenance.

Yikes. That is outrageous.

I am beginning to see a trend in shared tastes. I wonder how many on the board married blondes…