CRASH SHORT OF KSEE (NOT A MOONEY)

[DCarlton]

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/story/2021-12-27/aircraft-reportedly-crashes-near-el-cajon-east-of-gillespie-field

I think we have some highly experienced MS participants at KSEE.  Looks like he was on approach; high terrain in that area; poor weather.  No ILS.  Either LOC or GPS.  Will be helpful to others to understand root cause.  

[Niko182]

Its a lear 35. Yikes.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Niko182

[DCarlton]

5 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Its a lear 35. Yikes.

According to the news, he was coming from one of the airports in your area; four people on board.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I’ve done that approach a few times. You are descending down the slope of rising terrain. The crash happened on flat terrain in the bottom of the valley. All I can figure is they were doing a dive and drive non precision approach and dove too far.

[PeteMc]

If I have the correct time, the Wx was not down to minimums either.

KSEE 280255Z VRB05KT 3SM BR BKN020 OVC026 10/08 A2998

[David Lloyd]

Dark and marginal weather, got too low and snagged some power lines.  CTL is NA at night, ATC cleared him for left pattern, VFR.  ATC and crew worked together to skirt the rules.  That's the kind of thing that gets rules changed later. Just watched a security video, looked like a tight turn, possibly a stall, a steep descent, then the power lines.

Either way, marginal night weather, hilly terrain, non-precision approach: Beware!

[Ragsf15e]

Lear is a handful on a tight pattern, low, at night, in poor vis…

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Dark and marginal weather, got too low and snagged some power lines.  CTL is NA at night, ATC cleared him for left pattern, VFR.  ATC and crew worked together to skirt the rules.  That's the kind of thing that gets rules changed later. Just watched a security video, looked like a tight turn, possibly a stall, a steep descent, then the power lines.

Either way, marginal night weather, hilly terrain, non-precision approach: Beware!

They were on the approach to 17, and as you said cancelled IFR so they could CTL on 27R which is NA at night. I saw that NEST camera video last night and it looks like they were in and out of the clouds still, or just barely at the bases. There is a very large hill there just east of 27R. Starting at 43:32 in the video below you can see it as we're on final for 27R. They were flying a left pattern so would have been pointing towards the hill at some point in the turn, maybe they were getting terrain warnings and banked more stalling out? I doubt in the rain at night they would have actually seen the hill.

I wouldn't want to try and fly that at night in the Mooney, I can't imagine at the speeds the jet guys are going.

If they clipped a power line, that didn't cause the crash, by that point it was inevitable. The NEST camera video shows them in a very steep bank just prior to going in. There is also audio from it, the pilot knew he was in trouble right before the crash. It is all sad. If 17 was not long enough for them because it was wet, they could have diverted to KMYF or even KSAN. 

 

 

[ilovecornfields]

I did my night currency at SEE last month and made left traffic for 27R (27L is closed at night and the lights are off). That hill has been there forever so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone based there (which they were).

Given the time of day, the short flight and the fact that it’s registered to a medevac company in guessing fatigue and being behind the airplane are the likely causes of the crash.

There aren’t a lot of novel ways to crash an airplane. We just keep perfecting the old ways.

[Skates97]

8 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I did my night currency at SEE last month and made left traffic for 27R (27L is closed at night and the lights are off). That hill has been there forever so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone based there (which they were).

Given the time of day, the short flight and the fact that it’s registered to a medevac company in guessing fatigue and being behind the airplane are the likely causes of the crash.

There aren’t a lot of novel ways to crash an airplane. We just keep perfecting the old ways.

I agree the hill shouldn't be a surprise. The LLC is showing it is based there, but it looks like this plane might have recently moved there. They have landed there three times in the past week, although only once after dark. But prior to that, there are no landings at KSEE going back to November 26th. I wouldn't think fatigue should be a factor yesterday. There was a 30 minute flight from KSEE to KHII. An hour and a half later a 40 minute flight from KHII to KSNA. Then an hour after that the ill-fated 18 minute flight from KSNA to KSEE. It looks like 2-3 legs a day was fairly common.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N880Z/history

[ilovecornfields]

10 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I agree the hill shouldn't be a surprise. The LLC is showing it is based there, but it looks like this plane might have recently moved there. They have landed there three times in the past week, although only once after dark. But prior to that, there are no landings at KSEE going back to November 26th. I wouldn't think fatigue should be a factor yesterday. There was a 30 minute flight from KSEE to KHII. An hour and a half later a 40 minute flight from KHII to KSNA. Then an hour after that the ill-fated 18 minute flight from KSNA to KSEE. It looks like 2-3 legs a day was fairly common.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N880Z/history

I’m not familiar with that company but some medevac companies do shifts since most of their flights are unscheduled. They may not have flown much, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t awake or on-call for a while. Or it may have nothing to do with it.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I agree the hill shouldn't be a surprise. The LLC is showing it is based there, but it looks like this plane might have recently moved there. They have landed there three times in the past week, although only once after dark. But prior to that, there are no landings at KSEE going back to November 26th. I wouldn't think fatigue should be a factor yesterday. There was a 30 minute flight from KSEE to KHII. An hour and a half later a 40 minute flight from KHII to KSNA. Then an hour after that the ill-fated 18 minute flight from KSNA to KSEE. It looks like 2-3 legs a day was fairly common.

I'd point out that the end of a holiday weekend, fatigue is always a potential contributing factor.  

[DCarlton]

Cockpit and ATC audio is sickening.  Very sad.  Two circle to land crashes within months of each other in San Diego this year.  One at MYF and one at SEE.  I'm not a professional pilot, but circling to land at KSEE in the dark in weather even if above minimums seems like a non-starter to me.  

Edited December 28, 2021 by DCarlton

[Niko182]

I presume within the next couple weeks we're going to see circle to lands at night NA at KSEE

[BaldEagle]

22 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I presume within the next couple weeks we're going to see circle to lands at night NA at KSEE

For the RNAV GPS 17 approach circling 27R at night is already NA.  It looks like what happened is that they cancelled IFR and then functionally performed the prohibited circle for 27R at night (but “VFR”).  That might not get you a violation, but if circling at night is NA it’s for a good reason — now throw some weather into the mix…. Caveat emptor: I’m a long lapsed CFII without much background on this particular accident (even though it is on my doorstep), and I generally don’t like to speculate because I’m usually wrong.

Looks like a case study in ADM to me.  I wonder if air ambulance ops will come under scrutiny as a result of this — there must be tremendous pressure to get the job done, and there might be some aspects that are unique to these kind of operations that negatively affect ADM.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, BaldEagle said:

For the RNAV GPS 17 approach circling 27R at night is already NA.  It looks like what happened is that they cancelled IFR and then functionally performed the prohibited circle for 27R at night (but “VFR”).  That might not get you a violation, but if circling at night is NA it’s for a good reason — now throw some weather into the mix…. Caveat emptor: I’m a long lapsed CFII without much background on this particular accident (even though it is on my doorstep), and I generally don’t like to speculate because I’m usually wrong.

Looks like a case study in ADM to me.  I wonder if air ambulance ops will come under scrutiny as a result of this — there must be tremendous pressure to get the job done, and there might be some aspects that are unique to these kind of operations that negatively affect ADM.

The tower didn't seem to hesitate to accept the request to cancel IFR and circle VFR.  I guess they have no choice if asked.  Circling behind those hills at night in any weather just seems like a fundamentally bad idea even VFR unless it's crystal clear.  They appear to have turned up the airport lights to 100% to help the pilots see the airport.  For us that aren't pros, we have to ask how two pilots make this mistake.  We all think we can do better.  It seems so obvious sitting behind a computer but it's not in real time.

Edited December 29, 2021 by DCarlton
corrected.

[ilovecornfields]

3 hours ago, BaldEagle said:

For the RNAV GPS 17 approach circling 27R at night is already NA.  It looks like what happened is that they cancelled IFR and then functionally performed the prohibited circle for 27R at night (but “VFR”).  That might not get you a violation, but if circling at night is NA it’s for a good reason — now throw some weather into the mix…. Caveat emptor: I’m a long lapsed CFII without much background on this particular accident (even though it is on my doorstep), and I generally don’t like to speculate because I’m usually wrong.

Looks like a case study in ADM to me.  I wonder if air ambulance ops will come under scrutiny as a result of this — there must be tremendous pressure to get the job done, and there might be some aspects that are unique to these kind of operations that negatively affect ADM.

What is an anti-authority attitude?

Pilots with an anti-authority attitude do not like being told what or how to do things. They tend to believe that the rules don’t apply to them. The pilot might not use checklists or perhaps disregard the advice of their instructor. This pilot might say or think, Why should I listen to you?The solution for this attitude would be for the pilot to tell themselves, Follow the rules, they are usually right!
 

Maybe a good time to remind ourselves of the difference between safe and legal. If circling was NA at night then cancelling IFR and effectively doing a circling maneuver may have been legal, but it wasn’t safe. 
 

It looks like they may have  outsmarted themselves by focusing on the wrong thing.

Edited December 29, 2021 by ilovecornfields

[kortopates]

It sure looks like the circle 27L was either an after thought or delayed till they had descended for landing on R17, since they started to circle south when already 600’ below circling minimums. Of course to do so, they had to cancel IFR and do this VFR and the IFR minimums no longer applied, only VFR minimums.
I am not a Lear pilot, but I really hate it when traffic has forced circling behind what i refer to as the two “pimples” (not rattlesnake) where the pilot appeared to be clearing by about 100’ agl. I can’t help but wonder how much that hill might have affected the pilots banking and stalling as he threaded the gap onto final.
Vis was apparently 3 sm, so should have been doable. But still, it underlines the importance of 91.175 and perhaps the need to avoid making last minute changes to circle below min’s at night even if wx allowed canceling. As said above, legal doesn’t mean safe; especially at night with limited vis.


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[ilovecornfields]

Just saw that the mayor of El Cajon promised to investigate if there are “underlying issues” with Gillespie Field. If that plane burned 100 LL they probably would blame it on that!

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/2-nurses-2-pilots-killed-in-east-county-san-diego-plane-crash/509-d4d48e95-3069-4102-9d74-2ab81fb9e638

[PeteMc]

In the AVWeb article I just read it referenced a posted comment (don't know where) from another Lear pilot that Rwy 17 would have been too short, especially if wet.  So that might have been part of the decision process to do the circle to land.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, PeteMc said:

In the AVWeb article I just read it referenced a posted comment (don't know where) from another Lear pilot that Rwy 17 would have been too short, especially if wet.  So that might have been part of the decision process to do the circle to land.

If 4100 feet is not enough, why would the pilot have accepted the 17 approach from SOCAL in the first place if he's based at KSEE?  Shouldn't he have asked for the LOC or GPS to 27R unless he was trying to expedite getting on the ground (even though the winds favored 17)?  Coming from the LA area, 17 is straight in and 27R takes a little more time.  Tragic but it seems like bad decisions all around.  

Edited December 29, 2021 by DCarlton

[carusoam]

An example of a Lear Jet Accident in NJ in 2017…

Getting behind a quick moving plane, throw in some confusion, and surprise!

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/bergen/teterboro/2019/03/12/teterboro-nj-plane-crash-pilots-failed-follow-company-rules-feds-say/3139946002/

 

Lesson learned…

Don’t fall behind the plane…

Have a plan for when you do…

 

Plan B shouldn’t include steeper turns near the ground….

 

Go around…

Go missed…

Go somewhere else…

 

Live to tell about that time…. 
 

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

An example of a Lear Jet Accident in NJ in 2017…

Getting behind a quick moving plane, throw in some confusion, and surprise!

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/bergen/teterboro/2019/03/12/teterboro-nj-plane-crash-pilots-failed-follow-company-rules-feds-say/3139946002/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BML2lfqaK-4

 

[ZuluZulu]

On 12/28/2021 at 9:52 AM, Skates97 said:

I wouldn't want to try and fly that at night in the Mooney, I can't imagine at the speeds the jet guys are going.

"Cross midfield, make left downwind for 27R, cleared to land" is by far the most common instruction I get returning to SEE from the N/NW at night.  If night is the only added factor, I have not seen it as an issue.  The surrounding area is populated and well-lit, including the peaks of the hills.  I would not like to try that in marginal weather, though.  I would either land straight-in 17, which happened once when visibility was unexpectedly deteriorating quickly due to haze/mist, or divert to Ramona. (I'm still a VFR only pilot, for now).

On 12/29/2021 at 9:28 AM, DCarlton said:

If 4100 feet is not enough, why would the pilot have accepted the 17 approach from SOCAL in the first place if he's based at KSEE?  Shouldn't he have asked for the LOC or GPS to 27R unless he was trying to expedite getting on the ground (even though the winds favored 17)?  Coming from the LA area, 17 is straight in and 27R takes a little more time.  Tragic but it seems like bad decisions all around.  

There is no GPS to 27R.  There is an RNAV (GPS) for 9L in the opposite direction, though.

[DCarlton]

3 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

"Cross midfield, make left downwind for 27R, cleared to land" is by far the most common instruction I get returning to SEE from the N/NW at night.  If night is the only added factor, I have not seen it as an issue.  The surrounding area is populated and well-lit, including the peaks of the hills.  I would not like to try that in marginal weather, though.  I would either land straight-in 17, which happened once when visibility was unexpectedly deteriorating quickly due to haze/mist, or divert to Ramona. (I'm still a VFR only pilot, for now).

There is no GPS to 27R.  There is an RNAV (GPS) for 9L in the opposite direction, though.

Thanks I didn't look it up.  Recall there is a LOC; assumed by now there would be a GPS too.