Mooney down at KHEG (Jacksonville, FL)

[PT20J]

It is also likely that the hinge was worn or otherwise compromised on the aircraft that had the baggage door depart. Bob Kromer (former Mooney factory test pilot) told me that he performed flight tests with a door rigged so that he could unlatch it in flight and found no controllability or structural issues.

Skip

[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

It is also likely that the hinge was worn or otherwise compromised on the aircraft that had the baggage door depart. Bob Kromer (former Mooney factory test pilot) told me that he performed flight tests with a door rigged so that he could unlatch it in flight and found no controllability or structural issues.

Skip

During Certification the FAA required that I fly the S2R-H80 with the baggage door open, we had one on each side of the aircraft but I was only required to fly with one open and just in the pattern, no dive to Vd or anything scary.

[steingar]

Did it once to a non event, except landing in front of all my friends with the baggage door open.  A CFI friend on mine told me he did the same thing, but his departed the airframe (faster Mooney).  Expensive repair, too. It could have created an emergency had it hit the flight controls on the way out, like those folks in Europe.

 

[daytonabch04]

On 1/16/2022 at 7:55 PM, WAFI said:

Has anyone experienced the baggage door popping open even if it has been latched down?

I was told always latch and lock the baggage door as one of my checks. 

Just curios if someone had one come open even when latched or are we talking about leaving it unlatched on accident?

I don’t see my coming unlatched do to the solid feel it has when closed. 

Yes, don't ask me how I know...recently had it happen.  Ensure you LOCK your baggage door...not just ensure it is properly latched.  

[Mooney in Oz]

8 hours ago, daytonabch04 said:

Yes, don't ask me how I know...recently had it happen.  Ensure you LOCK your baggage door...not just ensure it is properly latched.  

Had it also happen to me upon takeoff some 15 years ago. If it wasn’t for the noise, I wouldn’t have known what happened. Flew a normal pattern and landed without issue.

Slight damage to the top of the baggage door just below the hinge where the skin had been stretched a few inches. It was barely noticeable and I could’ve left it as is, but being anally retentive as I am with my Mooney, I had my mechanic order a new skin, had it painted and fitted.

That was about 17 years ago and since then my last check before entering the aircraft for departure is to ensure the baggage door is locked.

[PT20J]

Having spent some time investigating the latch, I'm not convinced locking it does anything mechanical to keep the door from opening. The lock only latches the exterior handle closed and if it was already closed it is overcenter and won't come open. Perhaps though, it is a good memory aid to make sure the door is latched. There are a number of things that can go wrong with the emergency release inside the airplanes that have those and it is good to check the mechanism at annual inspection and certainly make sure the pin is inserted correctly and the cover is intact.

[ArtVandelay]

Having spent some time investigating the latch, I'm not convinced locking it does anything mechanical to keep the door from opening. The lock only latches the exterior handle closed and if it was already closed it is overcenter and won't come open. Perhaps though, it is a good memory aid to make sure the door is latched. There are a number of things that can go wrong with the emergency release inside the airplanes that have those and it is good to check the mechanism at annual inspection and certainly make sure the pin is inserted correctly and the cover is intact.

If I repeatedly fist bump the hatch, the handle will start to open up, but stops when it sticks out a 1/8” or so. For everyone I would suggest doing this test to insure yours doesn’t continue to open up.

[dominikos]

On 1/13/2022 at 5:54 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Turbocharged, 2 pax and had been flying 20 min. so some fuel burned off - so the weight would seem be well below max gross (even if they both weighed 200 each and it if had 50 gal maybe 700 lbs and at 2,500 lbs total), witness reports that the landing gear was up so the biggest normal source of drag was eliminated, practically at sea level, cool day- it should jump.  Why would it not climb and accelerate?!

Could have been as simple as throttle cable detaching and throttle getting stuck in semi opened position. I had it happen once, not a fun nor fast take off for sure.

[RobertGary1]

8 hours ago, dominikos said:

Could have been as simple as throttle cable detaching and throttle getting stuck in semi opened position. I had it happen once, not a fun nor fast take off for sure.

How could that be possible? If the cable breaks in the sheath you should be able to push it; just not pull it.

Baggage doors can be a big deal. Piper twins had a rash of fatalities such that many have been changed so you cannot close the door without locking it and you cannot get your key back without locking it. Its a bit of a pain but if you want your key back you have to lock the door.

[dominikos]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

How could that be possible? If the cable breaks in the sheath you should be able to push it; just not pull it.

Baggage doors can be a big deal. Piper twins had a rash of fatalities such that many have been changed so you cannot close the door without locking it and you cannot get your key back without locking it. Its a bit of a pain but if you want your key back you have to lock the door.

Apologies, checked my notes, it was a mixture cable, mounting broke off after I leaned for taxing and didn’t realized - changed my take off checklist for take off as a result 

 

[cnoe]

On 1/18/2022 at 11:57 AM, daytonabch04 said:

Ensure you LOCK your baggage door...not just ensure it is properly latched.  

My condolences go out to the family and friends of the lost souls. And I apologize for the thread drift but I felt it necessary to provide an alternative point of view on baggage doors/emergency exits.

This has been discussed a great deal in the past and a fair number of us purposely leave this hatch "unlocked". I previously locked the latch religiously believing that the "lock" kept the door more secure, but I now choose to leave it unlocked so that any first-responder/rescuer will have easy access into my plane in the event of an incident in which I am incapacitated or need assistance. I have studied the latch/lock mechanism fully and the "lock" only secures the outer handle; it has absolutely no effect on the security of the latch (unless some external force is pulling on the handle). Granted there are perhaps some latches out there that were improperly installed or modified but mine is not one of them. There is an important Service Instruction (SI M20-82) that addresses this issue and I would advise owners to follow it. In fairness I will admit that in this SI Mooney "recommends" that the door be locked before flight. This document is available at https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SIM20-82.pdf

With all due respect "locking" your baggage door in flight isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. For me the door is either fully open, or fully closed-and-latched. But it's never locked in flight. Everybody gets to choose their own SOP on that one.

CNoe

[carusoam]

Hey there’s been a Chuck sighting!

Long time no see!

+1 for fully open or closed and latched….  And enabled to be opened from the inside….

Chuck wrote a great deal doing glider studies with his M20J a ways back…

And we shared a tent back yard at KOSH a couple of years ago… 

Best regards,

-a-

[daytonabch04]

13 hours ago, cnoe said:

My condolences go out to the family and friends of the lost souls. And I apologize for the thread drift but I felt it necessary to provide an alternative point of view on baggage doors/emergency exits.

This has been discussed a great deal in the past and a fair number of us purposely leave this hatch "unlocked". I previously locked the latch religiously believing that the "lock" kept the door more secure, but I now choose to leave it unlocked so that any first-responder/rescuer will have easy access into my plane in the event of an incident in which I am incapacitated or need assistance. I have studied the latch/lock mechanism fully and the "lock" only secures the outer handle; it has absolutely no effect on the security of the latch (unless some external force is pulling on the handle). Granted there are perhaps some latches out there that were improperly installed or modified but mine is not one of them. There is an important Service Instruction (SI M20-82) that addresses this issue and I would advise owners to follow it. In fairness I will admit that in this SI Mooney "recommends" that the door be locked before flight. This document is available at https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SIM20-82.pdf

With all due respect "locking" your baggage door in flight isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. For me the door is either fully open, or fully closed-and-latched. But it's never locked in flight. Everybody gets to choose their own SOP on that one.

CNoe

I would fully agree and I've been keeping my door closed, but in the unlocked position.  I had the unfortunate experience about a month ago, that my baggage door was in the fully closed position and my door opened up at 9k feet in cruise flight, 45 mins into my flight.  Luckily, the door stayed attached and didn't cause any further damage to the airframe, but I'm in the locked group now after a personal experience.  First responders can always knock out a plexiglass window to get to me, if needed. 

[201er]

14 hours ago, cnoe said:

I now choose to leave it unlocked so that any first-responder/rescuer will have easy access into my plane in the event of an incident in which I am incapacitated or need assistance.

If leaving the baggage door locked could have prevented the door from popping, the Jacksonville Mooney may not have needed first-responders to begin with...

[Hector]

The door was likely a contributing factor but there is more here. The mishap flight (12/26) and the previous flight just a few days prior (12/17) both show very low speeds around the pattern. On 12/17, just a few days before the mishap he did several T&Gs all with base speeds in the low 60kts range and final in the 50s or low 60. His upwind in the 50s and low 60s and even his cross-wind speeds also in the 60s. His last two flights both show VERY low speeds around the pattern. Was this his standard pattern speed? Can’t imagine someone flying at the edge of stall for pattern work. One thing I did learn here is how inaccurate the airport rumors can be. Until the preliminary NTSB report came out, the predominant rumor around the airport was that on the mishap date folks saw him have an extremely hard landing and the plane bounced into the air and crashed shortly thereafter. No doubt fueled by the belief Mooneys are hard to land.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cnoe]

15 hours ago, daytonabch04 said:

I had the unfortunate experience about a month ago, that my baggage door was in the fully closed position and my door opened up at 9k feet in cruise flight, 45 mins into my flight.

I’m genuinely interested in hearing more about this incident. After landing was the outer handle sticking out? Does it have the plastic cover inside covering the emergency release? Was the assembly inspected or repaired by an A&P afterwards? The Service Instruction quoted doesn’t apply to the M20M so that shouldn’t be an issue.

I think the odds of me putting it down in a field, lake, or stand of pines is much greater than my hatch popping open in flight since it’s been thoroughly inspected and is regularly checked. Time will tell. Still I prefer giving any first responder (not just a trained and well-equipped rescue team) easy access to my cabin in case I need help. But I understand and support others’ choice to keep it locked if that provides you more peace of mind. All good!

CNoe

P.S. We missed you at KOSH this year Anthony! I try to visit MS occasionally still but my piano-playing duties at the brothel take up so much of my time these days.

[N231BN]

Given the low speeds in all phases of flight I can only guess that the airplane had a failed prop governor or the pilot didn't understand how a constant-speed prop works and was trying to keep the RPM below redline.

Low power output would result in slow climb and cruise but descent and approach would be normal.

An airspeed indictor issue would affect climb and approach but I don't think anyone shoots for a specific IAS in cruise, just set the power and go.

I may be way off here but it's the only thing that makes sense to me given the history of the flights previous to the accident.

[kortopates]

In the Mooney PPP's we had 3 latched closed doors open in flight, all several years ago now. After the 3rd one, we adpopted a policy of always locking the door before flight. Never had another one open with the door locked. I don't think we've ever seen a verified locked door open in flight - ever. 

As for the concern for giving first responders access, has anyone ever heard of a case of the baggage door being used by first responders? In an urban setting, firefighters/parameic don't mess with doors. They cut the roof off, put a neck brace on you and bring you up. If need be, they can cut the door open very swiftly. But even when the gear goes through the wing, you can still open the door just fine. It seems the chances of needing that baggage door for egress is even smaller than the odds of it opening in flight unlocked. Personally I'd rather minimize the chance of opening it in flight. Choose your poison.

Edited January 23, 2022 by kortopates

[ilovecornfields]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

In the Mooney PPP's we had 3 latched closed doors open in flight, all several years ago now. After the 3rd one, we adpopted a policy of always locking the door before flight. Never had another one open with the door locked. I don't think we've ever seen a verified locked door open in flight - ever. 

As for the concern for giving first responders access, has anyone ever heard of a case of the baggage door being used by first responders? In an urban setting, firefighters/parameic don't mess with doors. They cut the roof off, put a neck brace on you and bring you up. If need be, they can cut the door open very swiftly. But even when the gear goes through the wing, you can still open the door just fine. It seems the chances of needing that baggage door for egress is even smaller than the odds of it opening in flight unlocked. Personally I'd rather minimize the chance of opening it in flight. Choose your poison.

You remind me about a wreck I responded to 20 years ago on the interstate where a truck rolled over, there was a fatality in the vehicle and the passenger was trapped inside. There was quite a bit of damage on the passenger’s side and the door wouldn’t open. The fire department got really excited and started getting all of their power tools and cutting devices ready. My partner opened the drivers side door and pulled the guy out across the seat.

Yes, if the fire department wants to get into your plane they will do it. I assume it would take them about 10 seconds to break the windows.

Edited January 23, 2022 by ilovecornfields

[LANCECASPER]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:50 AM, Deb said:

The preliminary NTSB report has been released https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/104442/pdf.

I've mentioned this on Mooneyspace before, but it's worth repeating. It's not usually the baggage door popping open that's the problem, it's the major distraction it creates. My experience with that:

In September 1996 I bought a new Mooney TLS Bravo, and in early summer 1997 a friend needed me to drive him up to catch a commercial flight in Austin TX. No problem, I'll fly you to Austin Mueller (now closed).

He had flown with me many times and knew that hot starts in Texas summers can be tricky. We went over it before we ever left the ground. He was going to exit the airplane, get his bag, shut the baggage door and walk behind the airplane to the FBO for his ride to the terminal while I kept it at idle and didn't have to shut down. We landed, taxied, we went over it again, he exited, got his bag. I got my clearance, taxied, took off and  shortly after take-off I heard a loud bang from the back of the airplane - the baggage door has popped open on my new airplane. I was sure it had probably exited the airframe and had taken the tail section with it. I let the tower know what happened and that I was coming around to land on the perpendicular runway - all the way picturing what my airplane must look like. I turned final and wanted to get this thing on the ground to assess the damage. On final, a Delta pilot waiting for take-off, who had heard everything, says "Mooney, check your gear down". I got that horrible feeling. I would like to think that I would have made a short-final gumps check, but I'm not sure. After all was said and done after landing and then taxiing to the FBO and looking over the airplane, I closed the baggage door, locked it and there wasn't a scratch or a bend anywhere on the airplane. I had turned a minor distraction into what could have been a major problem. 

[EricJ]

If you're lucky and there are "first responders" around with equipment, they'll get you out whether anything is locked or bent or not.   It may take a little longer, but you'll get out.

I don't want them to take longer.   If they can get to me more quickly or easily, I want them to be able to do that because I don't know what circumstances may be limiting time available.

I don't want there to have to be "first responders".   If a hiker or bystander gets there first and can open the hatch, I want them to be able to do that.

If nobody shows up but I need to be able to get out, I want to be able to do that.

So, my baggage door stays unlocked.

[Hector]

There is considerable but not seemingly excessive friction built into the baggage door lock assembly on my C model.  There is no way that thing is coming open in flight if it is latched completely. The baggage door lock assembly on my previous J model was a different, flush, design that had much less friction.  My point is that all Mooneys might not be created equal in this regard and different SOPs might be required.  

Same here. Considerable friction enough to let you know it is secured. I’m on the fence on this one. Don’t see a problem either way but in my C I have a hard time seeing how it could fly open if latched properly. I don’t bother locking it but make sure I’m the only person to latch it close.


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[Flash]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

If nobody shows up but I need to be able to get out, I want to be able to do that.

My baggage door opens from the inside whether or not it is locked from the outside. I would be surprised if that's not the case with your door, too.

This consideration doesn't affect your first point; if you're incapacitated but there is an ordinary person (as opposed to an emergency responder) outside the aircraft who could get in and help you, having an unlocked baggage compartment would help.

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, Flash said:

My baggage door opens from the inside whether or not it is locked from the outside. I would be surprised if that's not the case with your door, too.

This consideration doesn't affect your first point; if you're incapacitated but there is an ordinary person (as opposed to an emergency responder) outside the aircraft who could get in and help you, having an unlocked baggage compartment would help.

I have an early J that had no interior latch mechanism.   I added one, but if the latch is locked it won't work, so I leave it unlocked for egress.

[daytonabch04]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I've mentioned this on Mooneyspace before, but it's worth repeating. It's not usually the baggage door popping open that's the problem, it's the major distraction it creates. My experience with that:

In September 1996 I bought a new Mooney TLS Bravo, and in early summer 1997 a friend needed me to drive him up to catch a commercial flight in Austin TX. No problem, I'll fly you to Austin Mueller (now closed).

He had flown with me many times and knew that hot starts in Texas summers can be tricky. We went over it before we ever left the ground. He was going to exit the airplane, get his bag, shut the baggage door and walk behind the airplane to the FBO for his ride to the terminal while I kept it at idle and didn't have to shut down. We landed, taxied, we went over it again, he exited, got his bag. I got my clearance, taxied, took off and  shortly after take-off I heard a loud bang from the back of the airplane - the baggage door has popped open on my new airplane. I was sure it had probably exited the airframe and had taken the tail section with it. I let the tower know what happened and that I was coming around to land on the perpendicular runway - all the way picturing what my airplane must look like. I turned final and wanted to get this thing on the ground to assess the damage. On final, a Delta pilot waiting for take-off, who had heard everything, says "Mooney, check your gear down". I got that horrible feeling. I would like to think that I would have made a short-final gumps check, but I'm not sure. After all was said and done after landing and then taxiing to the FBO and looking over the airplane, I closed the baggage door, locked it and there wasn't a scratch or a bend anywhere on the airplane. I had turned a minor distraction into what could have been a major problem. 

Mine happened at 9k in cruise flight, 45 mins into my flight...how does that happen when it was latched? The loud pop/boom scared me too and then it was quiet...I had no clue if my door was still attached and hit the tail or not.  I lost a pitot cover out the baggage door and wasn't sure if anything else flew out or not.  I knew the first thing I had to do was fly the plane and slow down and communicate to ATC I was diverting. I slowed it down to 110-120 kts and circled an airport, landed and assessed the damage.  Luckily, the door was still attached but the skin crinkled up.  Easy fix to fly again, but it'll get your attention when it happens.  Mine was rather recent..