Traffic Pattern Conflict With Warrior

[201er]

Coming back to Linden, I made position announcements 10, 5, and 3 miles out. I joined on an extended left downwind to runway 27. A Warrior just departed 27 and called turning crosswind. His crosswind was just slightly ahead of my position on the downwind which made me predict a potential close call. However, I had a strong tailwind plus a faster airplane so I expected to end up ahead on downwind. The moment I saw him turn onto that early crosswind I made multiple attempts to establish radio contact.

Paraphrasing, "aircraft departed linden, Mooney is on left downwind 27." "airplane on downwind at Linden, you have a Mooney on downwind 27, say intentions?" "traffic on downwind at Linden, are you landing 27?"

He made a sharp left turn to parallel inside my downwind. At first I thought it was his attempt to avoid me, but later not so much. First of all, it would have made more sense for him to turn away and join behind. You don't want to box yourself in between the runway and another aircraft on downwind. He continues making radio calls such as "Warrior on downwind 27" completely unaware and unresponsive to my inquiries.

Finally, he starts turning a really tight base inside of my downwind and I made a turn to the right to break off the pattern and re-enter. I stated this as well. "Mooney breaking off to the right to reenter downwind due to traffic on base."

I might have believed one of us was having a radio problem if a helicopter pilot didn't chime in. He tried to explain to the Warrior that he cut off another aircraft in the pattern, the Mooney has been trying to reach you, etc. When the Warrior finally did respond, he said something like "Helicopter, I think I saw you land". I can see the helicopter pilot facepalm to that irrelevant response and at that point everyone just gave up and went on with their day. It's a good thing I broke off the approach and re-sequenced because this guy was clueless. I don't believe it would have been safe to try to work out the sequence with him or remain in his vicinity.

Kind of reminiscent of when a Cirrus cut me off in the pattern twice.

After I landed, I practiced several more patterns and so did the Warrior without conflict. He landed and went to parking before I made my last takeoff for my final pattern. I went all the way around the pattern and taxied back to the ramp and lo and behold the Warrior is still parked on the taxiway blocking my path to parking. I just stopped there idling on the taxiway and watched. Eventually the right seat occupant gets out and rushes around to push the Warrior back. With the pilot still at the controls, the right seater pushed the Warrior back by the spinner. This was the moment I gave up any hope of having a meaningful conversation and just went on with my day.

 

[Boilermonkey]

I can unfortunately relate.  This was a somewhat common experience flying from an uncontrolled field with a lot of training activity.  I'm now at a tower controled alfieps and it's slightly better.

[KB4]

Sounds like the old timer was simply task saturated with touch and go’s. Think we have all had the slow guy that decides to cut us off going 70kts.  I tend to think it’s a scared pilot with little skill/sit awareness, and like you my thoughts are always I am getting the hell away from that guy.  

[hammdo]

This is one of the reasons I'm at a towered airport. I prefer tat after several situations like this at the un-towered airports. Caddo Mills was like that and some of those guys didn't want to talk on the radio -- couple of time they would just 'arrive' on final straight in and the mad scramble began.

Even with ads-b, Caddo Mills is outside the 'required ADS-B ring' so it was always eyes out! I still fly to un-controlled airport as practice for 'anything goes'...

-Don

[Ragsf15e]

I’m definitely with you on his lack of communication and sit awareness, but doesn’t he have “right of way” since he’s established in the pattern and you were trying to enter the pattern?  
 

Im definitely not trying to say you effed it up, he was clearly having some issues, but I think the AIM says aircraft “established in the pattern” in the right of way discussion?

[MooneyMitch]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

His crosswind was just slightly ahead of my position on the downwind which made me predict a potential close call.

For myself and my opinion only,  the above phrase would be a signal to avoid any potential conflict.

Traffic and safety permitting, I would have made a radio call stating my position, stating I was making a 360 degree turn and then proceed in doing so, thereby eliminating any potential conflict.

 

[201er]

27 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m definitely with you on his lack of communication and sit awareness, but doesn’t he have “right of way” since he’s established in the pattern and you were trying to enter the pattern?  
 

Im definitely not trying to say you effed it up, he was clearly having some issues, but I think the AIM says aircraft “established in the pattern” in the right of way discussion?

FAR 91.113d Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.

 

He was perpendicular to my left. I was on his right. He was slower and could have easily angled the crosswind away a little and got in behind instead of cutting inside. Please point me to where in the regs or aim is says that the plane in the pattern has right of way and in what circumstances. I can't seem to find this.

[jaylw314]

Yes, I was thinking to myself the poor guy could have just been having radio problems until the end, then I joined in on the facepalm.

In fairness, I accidentally cut off a helicopter on an instrument approach last month to a non-towered airport because they seem to not use their tail numbers around here.  "Guard copter" called leaving the area and said he was coming back around for the practice approach, and I missed the second helicopter coming in using the "helicopter" name without tail number.

[philip_g]

One time I declared an emergency diverted with a rough running engine to an uncontrolled field. To have some idiot cut me off in the pattern 

[201er]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you are right. Further to your point 14 CFR 91.113 says that “When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of- way.”  So the Archer was lower since it was climbing out on take off.  It would seem that the Archer had right of way.

I agree except the part about "for the purpose of landing." When an aircraft is on crosswind, the purpose is departure, climb, get to downwind.... not landing. I feel that the "for the purpose of landing" does not start until you reduce power and begin a descent. Why do you feel a climb on crosswind is for the purpose of landing? I've flown crosswind legs and even downwinds when leaving the pattern in a certain direction.

[Ragsf15e]

42 minutes ago, 201er said:

I agree except the part about "for the purpose of landing." When an aircraft is on crosswind, the purpose is departure, climb, get to downwind.... not landing. I feel that the "for the purpose of landing" does not start until you reduce power and begin a descent. Why do you feel a climb on crosswind is for the purpose of landing? I've flown crosswind legs and even downwinds when leaving the pattern in a certain direction.

I looked it up after writing, and I’d personally apply the part about the “lower aircraft” being the one on crosswind with the right of way.  Again, this guy was definitely having some issues, but if he’s on departure or crosswind leg in the pattern (not departing the pattern), I’d say he’s “landing”.  
 

If I was entering on a 45 to downwind, I wouldn’t expect conflicting downwind traffic to breakout for me, even if I was to their right side (left traffic pattern) and generally right side converging has right of way.  You just have to apply as best you can with a dose of common sense and caution that the other guy might see it different (or not see you at all).

I don’t think there’s a real clear answer for that one.

[thinwing]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you are right. Further to your point 14 CFR 91.113 says that “When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of- way.”  So the Archer was lower since it was climbing out on take off.  It would seem that the Archer had right of way. The only question is whether the Archer announced that it was flying the pattern and whether the Mooney heard the announcement. 
 

I know that if this was at my controlled airport, Tower, knowing the Archer’s intentions, would slow the Mooney down, even ordering a 360 of the Mooney.  They would give the Archer right of way to climb out and make the crosswind turn as they see fit - not putting pressure on the takeoff pilot to turn early or late. 

this situation occurred exactly to me at ksac where ATP does a lot of slower 172 training.Because of the speed difference tower gave the right of way to the lower in my case cessna and ordered me to slow it up and a 360 for spacing which i complied reducing power,speed brakes out and dirtingup as much as possible.Plus these are student pilots like I once was...

[GeeBee]

I find there are a lot of people who diligently broadcast their position in the pattern, but very few actually listening and making assessments of the traffic situation. If someone is abeam me on the down wind because they cut inside of me, I will slow to 80 knots and if required, extend my down wind. No biggie. That is why we train for slow flight. There are a lot of students right now, and I just try to STF away from them and extend whatever courtesy I can to them. It is easier for me, and for them.

[A64Pilot]

Where I fly, often people don’t have radios. I’ve just come to treat them all as if they didn’t and it works out better that way.

‘People often have the wrong freq etc

 

[201er]

24 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Well you said “After I landed, I practiced several more patterns and so did the Warrior without conflict. He landed and went to parking before I made my last takeoff for my final pattern. ”. You indicated that you were both working with pattern practicing touching and goes. You were both entering the pattern for the purpose of practicing your landings.  

A. My initial conflict was returning from a different airport

B. I did not do touch and goes, I fly a Mooney.

[Skates97]

27 minutes ago, 201er said:

A. My initial conflict was returning from a different airport

B. I did not do touch and goes, I fly a Mooney.

I fly an airplane so I do touch an goes, it also happens to be a Mooney. 

All joking aside about Touch and goes, I just try to stay out of the way of other planes at un-towered airports. I spent about 2 1/2 years at Corona (KAJO) which is well known around here for pilots that fly non-standard patterns, make short approaches without announcing, or just do whatever they feel like doing. My standard operating procedure was when in doubt just get out of their way and come back for another go at it.

[Yetti]

I don't believe in right of way.   I believe in not bending metal.    Whatever I need to do to accomplish that goal, doing extra circles, slowing down etc is, learning to merge onto a freeway.   IT's all good.

[haymak3r]

I own a mooney now can I comment?  

My first time out with my bird, and the tower has us slot in behind a cherokee. My instructor got quite upset as I was quickly getting too close. I was about to break off and do a 360, when the tower finally asked me to. First time experiencing this kind of speed, and can totally relate now. It reminds me of when I rode street bikes. Always have to have better SA than everybody else because people just don't pay attention

[DXB]

8 hours ago, 201er said:

Coming back to Linden, I made position announcements 10, 5, and 3 miles out. I joined on an extended left downwind to runway 27. A Warrior just departed 27 and called turning crosswind. His crosswind was just slightly ahead of my position on the downwind which made me predict a potential close call. However, I had a strong tailwind plus a faster airplane so I expected to end up ahead on downwind. The moment I saw him turn onto that early crosswind I made multiple attempts to establish radio contact.

Paraphrasing, "aircraft departed linden, Mooney is on left downwind 27." "airplane on downwind at Linden, you have a Mooney on downwind 27, say intentions?" "traffic on downwind at Linden, are you landing 27?"

He made a sharp left turn to parallel inside my downwind. At first I thought it was his attempt to avoid me, but later not so much. First of all, it would have made more sense for him to turn away and join behind. You don't want to box yourself in between the runway and another aircraft on downwind. He continues making radio calls such as "Warrior on downwind 27" completely unaware and unresponsive to my inquiries.

Finally, he starts turning a really tight base inside of my downwind and I made a turn to the right to break off the pattern and re-enter. I stated this as well. "Mooney breaking off to the right to reenter downwind due to traffic on base."

I might have believed one of us was having a radio problem if a helicopter pilot didn't chime in. He tried to explain to the Warrior that he cut off another aircraft in the pattern, the Mooney has been trying to reach you, etc. When the Warrior finally did respond, he said something like "Helicopter, I think I saw you land". I can see the helicopter pilot facepalm to that irrelevant response and at that point everyone just gave up and went on with their day. It's a good thing I broke off the approach and re-sequenced because this guy was clueless. I don't believe it would have been safe to try to work out the sequence with him or remain in his vicinity.

Kind of reminiscent of when a Cirrus cut me off in the pattern twice.

After I landed, I practiced several more patterns and so did the Warrior without conflict. He landed and went to parking before I made my last takeoff for my final pattern. I went all the way around the pattern and taxied back to the ramp and lo and behold the Warrior is still parked on the taxiway blocking my path to parking. I just stopped there idling on the taxiway and watched. Eventually the right seat occupant gets out and rushes around to push the Warrior back. With the pilot still at the controls, the right seater pushed the Warrior back by the spinner. This was the moment I gave up any hope of having a meaningful conversation and just went on with my day.

 

If the departing traffic  indicated he was staying in the pattern and was on the upwind before you were established on the downwind, I think it was your responsibility to give way to that traffic, which is already part of the pattern.  I don’t think being on a long extended downwind at that point makes you of the pattern yet.  Your direct downwind pattern entry is also nonstandard and would seem only to increase the onus on you to give way to any traffic already in the pattern.  The warrior’s main deficiency seems to be not having made all the standard position reports. 

[cbarry]

This scenario points out one of my beliefs:  it seems the only time pilots are ready to stop flying is when there’s a race to land!  In the case of this potential conflict, I purposely stay slightly wider than standard when entering the pattern.  This helps give me a better view and clearance from established pattern traffic (that may or may not be paying attention) or I simply will fly a 360 away from the pattern and re-enter on a 45 to downwind.

[OR75]

maybe he is a pilot who used to take parachute jumpers up (elevators !!) Parachute jumping tend to be at uncontrolled fields

After the jump, those pilots tend to come down fast, take any runway and ignore any aircraft in the pattern - under the pretext they are working ?

    

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

B. I did not do touch and goes, I fly a Mooney.

I have Scottsdale tower on a scanner in my office.   The other day a Mooney requested touch-and-goes.   I thought, "OMG!  THEY'RE GONNA DIE!", but they were fine. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

A. My initial conflict was returning from a different airport

B. I did not do touch and goes, I fly a Mooney.

I’m not sure of the difference?

“After I landed, I practiced several more patterns and so did the Warrior without conflict“

Clarence

[skydvrboy]

I once had an old pilot tell me, "It doesn't matter if you get there first or second.  You just don't want to tie!"

As for controlled fields and training aircraft, we have a college flight school on our airport.  They always seem to clear me in front of the slower trainers if possible, especially on the ground, but even airborne since they know I'm faster.  My last flight there were 4 trainers lined up to depart midfield when I rolled up to the runway hold short line and told tower I was ready to go.  They cleared me first and approved a right turnout, which occurred before I was even overhead the trainers.  I then heard tower subsequently clear each of them to depart.

[Pete M]

Hi guys, I'm a cfi at princeton, near linden, uncontrolled. Probably spend about 6 hours a day in the air around here. Ya know, not every circumstance is spelled out in the regs and we all have to share the same sandbox:)  In general if you are approaching a field you should yield to anyone in the pattern. Lots of student training occurs at these little airports and the crews can be saturated or you may be dealing with a solo student pilot. Add in old equipment and bad radios. if I understand this correctly by the time you reached the warroir you were or would have been in trail and overtaking which means you have a duty to avoid. Either way you should have executed a right 360 on dw for spacing. As for the talking...uncontrolled field...no radio required. Some a/c have no electrical so dont expect people to talk to you and traffic in the pattern is under no obligation to coordinate your arrival. Be the bigger man and more experienced aviator and use your superior skills to manage the situation:) A lot of these guys could use your help in making things easier to manage for them:)