End Game

[Dream to fly]

1968 M20F Executive 

Owned since 2016 flown it for all of 180 hrs and have been fixing ever since.  Down to the windshield and an annual and hit a road block so it is going up for sale.

things that have been done:

new hub reconditioned props (no ADs)

new prop cable

new flap cable

rebuilt flap pump

rebuilt master cylinder

new starter

reman alternator

new regulator

new magnetos 

new ignition harness

all new plugs

all new bladders

new fuel caps 

all CiES fuel sending units

new fuel servo

reman fuel selector

reman front wheel truss

all LED lights

new interior

new fasteners for cowling and belly

one piece belly pan and all lasar speed mods

all new inspection screws

new exhaust system

new electric fuel pump not dukes reman.

new oil cooler

new oil hoses with fire retardant shield 

remote oil filter

new instrument panels

Fast approach hub

Garmin 530W

SL30 with glide slope

JPI900

2 G5s

Garmin G500 pitch, trim altitude hold

PMA8000B

Garmin 335

all vacuum removed 

Lasar windshield mod needs completion 

New brakes rotors and pads

new front hub and bearings

all new tires and tubes

new trim control rods and u-joints

new door seals 

new side vent 

rebuilt heater control box

new pitot static tubing

new battery and cables to starter

there is probably more but I am numb as I type this.  make a reasonable offer. 

TT is approx 4000 SMOH 1400 approx  

 

[carusoam]

Yikes!

That must be some giant road block, Joe!

What comes next?

 

You picked a good time for the sale… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

Joe, 

Even if you wish to sell it and walk away, you're much better off getting the unfinished projects across the finish line.  See if you can find someone in the surrounding areas that will moonlight for you.  You might post a note on the bulletin boards of the pilot lounges of surrounding airports.  Is there a chance that your current A&P will return to work anytime soon? Might be a good time for you to take a few weeks and regroup.  You're >90% of the way there. I hate to see you walk at this juncture.

[IgorD]

Sent you a PM.

[KB4]

On 8/5/2021 at 7:55 PM, Dream to fly said:

1968 M20F Executive 

Owned since 2016 flown it for all of 180 hrs and have been fixing ever since.  Down to the windshield and an annual and hit a road block so it is going up for sale.

things that have been done:

new hub reconditioned props (no ADs)

new prop cable

new flap cable

rebuilt flap pump

rebuilt master cylinder

new starter

reman alternator

new regulator

new magnetos 

new ignition harness

all new plugs

all new bladders

new fuel caps 

all CiES fuel sending units

new fuel servo

reman fuel selector

reman front wheel truss

all LED lights

new interior

new fasteners for cowling and belly

one piece belly pan and all lasar speed mods

all new inspection screws

new exhaust system

new electric fuel pump not dukes reman.

new oil cooler

new oil hoses with fire retardant shield 

remote oil filter

new instrument panels

Fast approach hub

Garmin 530W

SL30 with glide slope

JPI900

2 G5s

Garmin G500 pitch, trim altitude hold

PMA8000B

Garmin 335

all vacuum removed 

Lasar windshield mod needs completion 

New brakes rotors and pads

new front hub and bearings

all new tires and tubes

new trim control rods and u-joints

new door seals 

new side vent 

rebuilt heater control box

new pitot static tubing

new battery and cables to starter

there is probably more but I am numb as I type this.  make a reasonable offer. 

TT is approx 4000 SMOH 1400 approx  

 

Sounds like you have very nicely restored bird.  Get it finished fly the crap out of it then think about selling, if you still want to. 
 

Maybe easier to list the few items you didn’t replace. JK 

[M20F-1968]

What is your road block?  Sounds like it is an unavailable A&P.  You really should get it finished, own it for a while, and then determine if you want to sell.  depending upon your expenditures, you likely will not get your money back.  You have a better chance of getting your money if the project is finished, flyable and very nice.  But, you did this to keep (am I correct)?  You will never get the value of your labor if you sell it off.  I met many obstacles during my rebuilt.  Think of them as just another bump in the road.

John Breda

[Dream to fly]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:01 AM, M20F-1968 said:

What is your road block?  Sounds like it is an unavailable A&P.  You really should get it finished, own it for a while, and then determine if you want to sell.  depending upon your expenditures, you likely will not get your money back.  You have a better chance of getting your money if the project is finished, flyable and very nice.  But, you did this to keep (am I correct)?  You will never get the value of your labor if you sell it off.  I met many obstacles during my rebuilt.  Think of them as just another bump in the road.

John Breda

Thanks I am just fed up with the AP only routine.  I have located an AP that is willing to travel and do a complete inspection.  I am sure all said and done I am looking close to $5K but I really don't have a choice.  I can honestly say this whole endeavor has made me not want to fly anymore.  When a signature can destroy a dream it has too much power.  I understand why it is needed but the system is so corrupt and broken that it infuriates me to no end.  There is so much pencil whipping and price gouging that navigating thru all of it is just stupid.    Experimental and certified under 6000 pounds should all be treated the same except when part 135 is concerned.  My time to me is priceless but I enjoyed the journey until I stepped up to this plane.  All the others were fun and exciting but this particular Mooney is a thorn.  Thanks for the encouragement!!  The only good from this is that I have prevented this issue from plaguing anyone else with this plane consider it as I took one for the team.

[tmo]

Actually, the FAA got it more right than EASA, who are slowly trying to catch up when it comes to GA.

You could go get another guy to come and sign off your plane.

A few years ago something like that wouldn't have been imaginable over here.

As challenging as getting anything done on a plane is, it is still easier for me to go the FAA route than to deal with my local aviation authority.

And thanks for taking one for the team ;-)

[M20F-1968]

5 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Thanks I am just fed up with the AP only routine.  I have located an AP that is willing to travel and do a complete inspection.  I am sure all said and done I am looking close to $5K but I really don't have a choice.  I can honestly say this whole endeavor has made me not want to fly anymore.  When a signature can destroy a dream it has too much power.  I understand why it is needed but the system is so corrupt and broken that it infuriates me to no end.  There is so much pencil whipping and price gouging that navigating thru all of it is just stupid.    Experimental and certified under 6000 pounds should all be treated the same except when part 135 is concerned.  My time to me is priceless but I enjoyed the journey until I stepped up to this plane.  All the others were fun and exciting but this particular Mooney is a thorn.  Thanks for the encouragement!!  The only good from this is that I have prevented this issue from plaguing anyone else with this plane consider it as I took one for the team.

When I started my project I spent several years with A&P's who knew nothing of how to manage  a project of magnitude I set off out to accomplish.

 I bought the plan in 2003,  had one A&P work on it  who accomplished very little in six months and charged me more than he was worth.   I pulled the aircraft away from him and hired another person who at first glance seem to be able to do good work,  but in the end was both a scoundrel and a thief.   I secured $38,000 judgment against him which I am trying still to collect (Texas is one of the two debtor states in America).   He now owes me about 55,000 due to statutory interest.

 I had another A&P mechanic who supposedly was an avionics "expert"  but never did get anything installed into the airplane despite having been paid for work not done.  In  2007  I dismantled anything  on the aircraft that they touched.  I started over with new people and was determined to make an exceptional aircraft.  I found an excellent sheetmetal  person who was working in that capacity for Gulfstream and an AP/IA  with a good deal of Mooney experience.   We got the aircraft  ferried to Central Texas and ultimately flew it to Boston.  

 Like the saying goes,  you have to kiss a lot of toads....   I now have a cadre  of people I rely on to work on the airplane  and reluctant to let  anyone else get involved  unless they come highly recommended with good with references.   It simply takes time to get to that point.   You also need to learn  as much as you can about the aircraft you own  which will make informed decisions about maintenance easier.   I suggest you hang in there long enough until you get the support crew you need.   The "thorn"  is not the airplane itself,  but rather the people you have engaged to help you that  are apparently making the project more difficult and more expensive than it needs to be.   See it for what it is  and rise above it.   There are plenty people on this site  who can direct you to individuals who have the knowledge,  and the desire to help.

John Breda

[Mcstealth]

8 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Thanks I am just fed up with the AP only routine.  I have located an AP that is willing to travel and do a complete inspection.  I am sure all said and done I am looking close to $5K but I really don't have a choice.  I can honestly say this whole endeavor has made me not want to fly anymore.  When a signature can destroy a dream it has too much power.  I understand why it is needed but the system is so corrupt and broken that it infuriates me to no end.  There is so much pencil whipping and price gouging that navigating thru all of it is just stupid.    Experimental and certified under 6000 pounds should all be treated the same except when part 135 is concerned.  My time to me is priceless but I enjoyed the journey until I stepped up to this plane.  All the others were fun and exciting but this particular Mooney is a thorn.  Thanks for the encouragement!!  The only good from this is that I have prevented this issue from plaguing anyone else with this plane consider it as I took one for the team.

Instead of throwing out there "make reasonable offer," why not let All American take a crack at it. Their inventory is very low right now, which is telling. 

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/

Edited August 18, 2021 by Mcstealth

[Dream to fly]

On 8/6/2021 at 1:16 AM, carusoam said:

Yikes!

That must be some giant road block, Joe!

What comes next?

 

You picked a good time for the sale… 

Best regards,

-a-

The road block is getting people with authority to use common sense.  If a part is broken and it is replaced with new and modern it is not broken anymore.   A perfect example is I changed the landing light to an LED with an STC.  This makes it legal but without an STC it is not. Ok I'll agree we need price gouging on certified.  However I changed the overhead panel light and dimmer control to LED with a logic circuit for dim control and you would have thought I shot the president.  The old system used 8.3 amps and the dimmer would get hot the new system uses .8 amps and you can hold it and focus the light and not worry about heat issues.  Nope the world has to come to an end!  I removed the Vacuum pump and blocked it with a machined piece of anodized 6061 aluminum 3/16 thick and o-ring recessed to make the seal, nope that wont work I had to buy a plate from aircraft spruce and a paper gasket because it has a number on it.  The valve covers are held on with straight slot screws, I hate straight slot screws so I changed them to a torx of the same diameter head, length and material nope can't do it.   The list goes on and on and all of it stems from nobody using common sense.    Yet everyday the masses of trucks and busses carrying the goods and people we all love are held together with duct tape and bailing wire.   A plane crashes the government is like flies on poop.  A truck or bus crashes and it is left to local authorities and if it gets back to the driver or mechanic maybe a sentence of a year or two or a slap on the wrist. 

[Marauder]

18 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

When I started my project I spent several years with A&P's who knew nothing of how to manage  a project of magnitude I set off out to accomplish.

 I bought the plan in 2003,  had one A&P work on it  who accomplished very little in six months and charged me more than he was worth.   I pulled the aircraft away from him and hired another person who at first glance seem to be able to do good work,  but in the end was both a scoundrel and a thief.   I secured $38,000 judgment against him which I am trying still to collect (Texas is one of the two debtor states in America).   He now owes me about 55,000 due to statutory interest.

 I had another A&P mechanic who supposedly was an avionics "expert"  but never did get anything installed into the airplane despite having been paid for work not done.  In  2007  I dismantled anything  on the aircraft that they touched.  I started over with new people and was determined to make an exceptional aircraft.  I found an excellent sheetmetal  person who was working in that capacity for Gulfstream and an AP/IA  with a good deal of Mooney experience.   We got the aircraft  ferried to Central Texas and ultimately flew it to Boston.  

 Like the saying goes,  you have to kiss a lot of toads....   I now have a cadre  of people I rely on to work on the airplane  and reluctant to let  anyone else get involved  unless they come highly recommended with good with references.   It simply takes time to get to that point.   You also need to learn  as much as you can about the aircraft you own  which will make informed decisions about maintenance easier.   I suggest you hang in there long enough until you get the support crew you need.   The "thorn"  is not the airplane itself,  but rather the people you have engaged to help you that  are apparently making the project more difficult and more expensive than it needs to be.   See it for what it is  and rise above it.   There are plenty people on this site  who can direct you to individuals who have the knowledge,  and the desire to help.

John Breda

Unfortunately John's experience is not unique. I was fortunate that I did owner assisted annuals for the first seven years and got to see firsthand how some of these shops function. When I found a great mechanic, I used him for over 15 years until he hung up his spurs. I have been to 3 different shops since then and as John said, been kissing some toads. Hang in there!

[M20F-1968]

8 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

The road block is getting people with authority to use common sense.  If a part is broken and it is replaced with new and modern it is not broken anymore.   A perfect example is I changed the landing light to an LED with an STC.  This makes it legal but without an STC it is not. Ok I'll agree we need price gouging on certified.  However I changed the overhead panel light and dimmer control to LED with a logic circuit for dim control and you would have thought I shot the president.  The old system used 8.3 amps and the dimmer would get hot the new system uses .8 amps and you can hold it and focus the light and not worry about heat issues.  Nope the world has to come to an end!  I removed the Vacuum pump and blocked it with a machined piece of anodized 6061 aluminum 3/16 thick and o-ring recessed to make the seal, nope that wont work I had to buy a plate from aircraft spruce and a paper gasket because it has a number on it.  The valve covers are held on with straight slot screws, I hate straight slot screws so I changed them to a torx of the same diameter head, length and material nope can't do it.   The list goes on and on and all of it stems from nobody using common sense.    Yet everyday the masses of trucks and busses carrying the goods and people we all love are held together with duct tape and bailing wire.   A plane crashes the government is like flies on poop.  A truck or bus crashes and it is left to local authorities and if it gets back to the driver or mechanic maybe a sentence of a year or two or a slap on the wrist. 

It sounds like part of your "road block" is your desire to make things better.  I had a similar issue when I did my rebuild, but I also had a DER, a DAR, and two IA's to guide me as to what I could do and what I should not do.  You can not install home-made parts unless you have a DER's approval who specializes in that system.  Thus, you use the DER when a special certification is necessary.  It needs to be a big enough issue to get the DER involved.  You can do many modifications on an aircraft provided you follow the rules and have people with the appropriate credentials approve your plans before they are put into place, and have an IA approve the actual installation once it is performed to insure it was accomplished per the DER's pre-approval.  There are many things that can go wrong with an unapproved installation performed by well intended individuals who simply do not know what they do not know.  I am not applying that logic to your examples, but that is the lay of the land to ensure that modifications do not go awry.  

It sounds like you are concentrating on small battles that need not be battles at all.  Just buy the approved parts, play the game, and save your emotion and energy for the major modifications that you know you want to accomplish.  Again, you need to find your team of people who can lead you through the mine field unscathed.

John Breda

[Dream to fly]

13 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

It sounds like part of your "road block" is your desire to make things better.  I had a similar issue when I did my rebuild, but I also had a DER, a DAR, and two IA's to guide me as to what I could do and what I should not do.  You can not install home-made parts unless you have a DER's approval who specializes in that system.  Thus, you use the DER when a special certification is necessary.  It needs to be a big enough issue to get the DER involved.  You can do many modifications on an aircraft provided you follow the rules and have people with the appropriate credentials approve your plans before they are put into place, and have an IA approve the actual installation once it is performed to insure it was accomplished per the DER's pre-approval.  There are many things that can go wrong with an unapproved installation performed by well intended individuals who simply do not know what they do not know.  I am not applying that logic to your examples, but that is the lay of the land to ensure that modifications do not go awry.  

It sounds like you are concentrating on small battles that need not be battles at all.  Just buy the approved parts, play the game, and save your emotion and energy for the major modifications that you know you want to accomplish.  Again, you need to find your team of people who can lead you through the mine field unscathed.

John Breda

I totally agree with you that mods can't just be done and the way I typed it made it sound like I went rogue and just did things without approval.  I had AP/IA supervision and I had guidance.  The problem was I had AP/IA quit their jobs, have a mental break down literally, or up and die and the work started will not be looked at by others.  Its very frustrating when one  says its good and it can work and the other says no way in hell.  But the guy that says no way gets enough money and poof its good.  I had an AP/IA install with me my bladders, sending unit, EDM900, and fuel pump and he basically cracks from a family matter and ends up in the funny farm.  The next AP/IA won't sign until he re does all the work.  I have no choice so I have to agree.  6 hours later and a check written for $9600 and the plane is signed off.  That is my road block, that is my disgust they didn't redo my work I call bull shit.  I do apologize my previous post didn't explain it well.  I have found an AP/IA willing to travel and will be here at the end of next month to complete the windshield install and complete the annual.  After that I hope to either sell or it will be going a MSC for all annuals. 

[MB65E]

Did you meet the Pietsch’s yet? Sorry for your troubles. You are being walked all over. These airplanes take years to line out from lack of maintenance. Mine took 3 years of only me working on it prior me putting my family in it. Now 11 years in I have a machine that I just took on a squawk free 4600nm trip.  Doing it right takes time. There is Probably not 20 IA’s in the state of ND so that’s not exactly helping. Seems like the funds are there for you to keep it. Just need to solve the people problem. Once you get it lined out is cheaper annually than a BMW. Might look into your A&P. 
-Matt

[Dream to fly]

Did you meet the Pietsch’s yet? Sorry for your troubles. You are being walked all over. These airplanes take years to line out from lack of maintenance. Mine took 3 years of only me working on it prior me putting my family in it. Now 11 years in I have a machine that I just took on a squawk free 4600nm trip.  Doing it right takes time. There is Probably not 20 IA’s in the state of ND so that’s not exactly helping. Seems like the funds are there for you to keep it. Just need to solve the people problem. Once you get it lined out is cheaper annually than a BMW. Might look into your A&P. 
-Matt

I have. They are so busy they can't fit me in. They know the business and are great people. I am stuck anyway because last Monday the Hazen airport decided to redo the pavement. There is no runway right now. I love aviation!

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[MB65E]

Hang in there. 
-Matt

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Dream to fly said:

I have. They are so busy they can't fit me in. They know the business and are great people. I am stuck anyway because last Monday the Hazen airport decided to redo the pavement. There is no runway right now. I love aviation!

Is there a taxiway you could depart from to get it to a friendly, knowledgeable A&P / IA?

[Dream to fly]

Is there a taxiway you could depart from to get it to a friendly, knowledgeable A&P / IA?

No. I went yesterday to start the final work o the windshield and just about fell over. It looks like a bomb went off. They have the lighting out and the pavement gone. They say 60 days. So I have an AP IA coming out of Wisconsin at the end of September so hopefully he can make it right and then time will tell.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

On 8/18/2021 at 9:47 AM, Dream to fly said:

The road block is getting people with authority to use common sense.  If a part is broken and it is replaced with new and modern it is not broken anymore.   A perfect example is I changed the landing light to an LED with an STC.  This makes it legal but without an STC it is not. Ok I'll agree we need price gouging on certified.  However I changed the overhead panel light and dimmer control to LED with a logic circuit for dim control and you would have thought I shot the president.  The old system used 8.3 amps and the dimmer would get hot the new system uses .8 amps and you can hold it and focus the light and not worry about heat issues.  Nope the world has to come to an end!  I removed the Vacuum pump and blocked it with a machined piece of anodized 6061 aluminum 3/16 thick and o-ring recessed to make the seal, nope that wont work I had to buy a plate from aircraft spruce and a paper gasket because it has a number on it.  The valve covers are held on with straight slot screws, I hate straight slot screws so I changed them to a torx of the same diameter head, length and material nope can't do it.   The list goes on and on and all of it stems from nobody using common sense.    Yet everyday the masses of trucks and busses carrying the goods and people we all love are held together with duct tape and bailing wire.   A plane crashes the government is like flies on poop.  A truck or bus crashes and it is left to local authorities and if it gets back to the driver or mechanic maybe a sentence of a year or two or a slap on the wrist. 

I totally get it. Its why the experimental world is thriving.   That said, I love my Mooney.

[mccdeuce]

@Dream to fly I wanted to share a quick story with you to hopefully get you back at the real core which is your dream to be airborne. You have been through an ordeal for sure.
 

My very first airplane was a Grumman yankee.  I lost 2 cylinders in flight, and barely made the runway back. The mechanic on the field and I decided to swap the engine from a 235 to a 290. Everything was great and the plane flew like a champ with the extra HP. Couple years later, couple annuals later, different IAs later, I take it to a different shop as I had moved again. I tell him I am selling the plane, but she’s going out of annual and there is a crack in the windshield.  The plane is listed for $18k. A month later he hands me a bill for $14.5k. This was a big name/brand shop, I was upset but had very little recourse. I sought counsel who advised that I pay and move on.

what got me truly back into the love of general aviation? Flying a passenger!! Friends, wife, dog, even a stranger a few times (friends of friends who wanted to go) sharing the gift of flight is amazing.

A good mechanic can get you through this. Use this network to support you and then take a copilot flying. For some different passengers, Volunteer with Young Eagles or Veterans Airlift and find a way to accept this drama as the past.  

we will be here to be a sounding board or to let you vent. But do not let some bad apples ruin the end goal for you. I look forward to seeing this thread closed as the plane is no longer for sale.

[Jesse Cohen]

Curious how things ended with the IA you had come out. Did you ever get her up in the air?

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, Jesse Cohen said:

Curious how things ended with the IA you had come out. Did you ever get her up in the air?

He won't get this message unless he happens to check this thread. It's good to quote him or ping him. @Dream to fly

[Dream to fly]

Evening,  It actually went really well.  I ended up not getting the guy from Wisconsin but two AP/IAs  local from Bismarck who had previous knowledge as to what happened from the beginning.  My thinking was I really didn't feel like re-explaining and justifying my every move.  At the end of September I had a few weekends and nights available and between me and a few APs at the field we finished the windshield install and got it done.  The paint is a shade or two off but hopefully Vanco Aviation will be painting the plane next fall so as of right now its a non issue for me.  The last week of October I had the IA come up and we spent two days going over books and pages of every item in the logs and then spent hours combing thru the airplane.  Barring a few discrepancies with regard to how I do it vs how they do it vs what is acceptable, it went off with out blood shed.  Nothing failed and nothing was hidden or overlooked.  If anyone of the three people involved didn't like something for how it looked, was routed, or installed it was fixed.  On Nov 1 the plane was officially signed off and as soon as I get the cowl back from the painter for a touchup the plane will be in the sky hopefully burning tons of gas.   It has already made several high speed taxi runs and did multiple run-ups.  All with easier than ever before starting, idling and no oil leaking.  It is amazing when work is completed correctly.   I think I have removed all the previous sins and unless there is parts failure the plane should easily make the next annual with no major headaches.  At least I am praying for that.   I'll post pictures as soon as I get a chance to take some.  

[Jesse Cohen]

@Dream to fly Awesome to hear. It's great that it all worked out and you get to enjoy the fruits of all your labor.