Dukes fuel pump M20E

[J0nathan225]

Well my fuel pump seems to be frozen or broke. Dukes 1499-00-19. Hoping a tap or 2 fixes it or 2nd best hope: Weldon makes a drop in replacement. Anyone done this swap, I thought I read something about an expensive retro fit kit being needed?   or is: Weldon 18020-A  a drop in replacement for the 1499 dukes? 

[KSMooniac]

Send it to Aeromotors in WI and it will come back better than new.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[J0nathan225]

36 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Send it to Aeromotors in WI and it will come back better than new.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

So OH the dukes 1499 series?  I’m debating that.

It’s probably the cheaper option, but if there is a better (read: continuous duty more robust) pump that’s a direct fit, then I’d rather replace/upgrade to it.  My mind set is anything that breaks on a 1964 plane should be upgraded if there is a newer part available. 
 

I did read they aeromotors does good work though. 

[ArtVandelay]

So OH the dukes 1499 series?  I’m debating that.
It’s probably the cheaper option, but if there is a better (read: continuous duty more robust) pump that’s a direct fit, then I’d rather replace/upgrade to it.  My mind set is anything that breaks on a 1964 plane should be upgraded if there is a newer part available. 
 
I did read they aeromotors does good work though. 

I’ve read once Aeromotors gets done, it’s basically capable of continuous duty, internals (impeller?) are better than original. But that could be myth, no 1st hand knowledge.

[Janat83]

I had the same issue last month, I tapped on it and it's working normally again, I run it at least 30 times since then with no issues and good pressure, hopefully yours will be the same, otherwise it's $400 at Aeromotors 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, J0nathan225 said:

So OH the dukes 1499 series?  I’m debating that.

It’s probably the cheaper option, but if there is a better (read: continuous duty more robust) pump that’s a direct fit, then I’d rather replace/upgrade to it.  My mind set is anything that breaks on a 1964 plane should be upgraded if there is a newer part available. 
 

I did read they aeromotors does good work though. 

My mindset is that anything that works for 50 years on my airplane is worth rebuilding for another 50.

Im not trying to be a smartass though, there’s plenty of stuff to upgrade and/or make better... Voltage reg, generator-alternator, etc.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

My mindset is that anything that works for 50 years on my airplane is worth rebuilding for another 50.

Im not trying to be a smartass though, there’s plenty of stuff to upgrade and/or make better... Voltage reg, generator-alternator, etc.

I’m of that mindset as well, what often throws a wrench in that is when parts just aren’t available and or the overhauls are of poor quality.

‘If done well overhauled parts are often better than new, but sometimes overhauls are poorly done. The WWII era reverse current relays and voltage regulators we used to use had an excessively high failure rate. The Lamar generator control unit we eventually went to however was rock solid, so sometimes new technology is better.

The continuous duty Weldon fuel pump we used on the GE-H80 lasts about 200 hours though, then the brushes are worn out.

‘I should put an LED inline with my boost pump, I’m bad about forgetting to turn it off sometimes, an LED would remind me.

Edited June 2, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, J0nathan225 said:

Well my fuel pump seems to be frozen or broke. Dukes 1499-00-19. Hoping a tap or 2 fixes it or 2nd best hope: Weldon makes a drop in replacement. Anyone done this swap, I thought I read something about an expensive retro fit kit being needed?   or is: Weldon 18020-A  a drop in replacement for the 1499 dukes? 

 

Read my write up before you make a hasty decision.  Ole Bartlett is the owner of Aeromotors and gave me a detailed rundown of their improvements to the Dukes design.  They have tested it extensively.  Mine has been installed for almost 2.5 years and runs stronger than any of the previous pumps ever did.  You can hear and see the difference (on the fuel pressure needle) when priming. In cruise the electric pump will boosts pressure an additional 3-5lbs. Aeromotors also has Weldon pumps on the shelf. Ole could have sold me one (for more) but made it clear that the updated Dukes pump is the most robust option available. Details form my conversation with him in the thread below.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Shadrach

[spistora]

Sent mine to Aeromotors about 3 weeks ago, turn around was about 10 days.

I figured it deserved attention after 40 years of service. It had a slow drip but was still running fine.

[J0nathan225]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

My mindset is that anything that works for 50 years on my airplane is worth rebuilding for another 50.

Im not trying to be a smartass though, there’s plenty of stuff to upgrade and/or make better... Voltage reg, generator-alternator, etc.

Well played.  Well I'm off to tap on it, after that Aeromotor it is. Thanks everyone!

[J0nathan225]

1 hour ago, J0nathan225 said:

Well played.  Well I'm off to tap on it, after that Aeromotor it is. Thanks everyone!

It was more than a tap to me… but it worked! (For now)

[Shadrach]

22 hours ago, J0nathan225 said:

It was more than a tap to me… but it worked! (For now)

If I were you I would plan on pulling it soon. As someone who enjoys old British machinery, I am no stranger to persuading fuel pumps to function with a tap of encouragement.  In an airplane, I like to be sure that the redundancies built into the system will be there if I need them. I’ve had mechanical pumps go soft in flight. It gets your attention in a hurry.  My experience with the Dukes pump prior to the Aeromotors overhaul did not inspire confidence. Three overhauls and one IRAN in 50 years (3100hrs) of service. In terms of actual operational time I doubt I got 20hrs running hours out of any of them. It had always been a weak point.  I stopped using it in the pattern and on take off because I thought it best to confine its use to only when needed.  The new pump is absolutely a different animal operationally. I don’t sweat running it on take off or in the pattern. Ole told me I could run it continuously with no issues and I believe him. $400 was a small price to pay to eliminate a weak spot in the fuel system.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Shadrach

[A64Pilot]

Tapping is usually worn or stuck brushes, problem is if you ever need if, it’s likely you won’t be able to tap it.

Very often things like this in aircraft suffer more from disuse than anything else, brushes get stuck often from corrosion in the brush holders for instance.

Sometimes the worst thing you can do is not use things 

Edited June 3, 2021 by A64Pilot

[JimB]

On 6/2/2021 at 8:28 AM, J0nathan225 said:

Well my fuel pump seems to be frozen or broke. Dukes 1499-00-19. Hoping a tap or 2 fixes it or 2nd best hope: Weldon makes a drop in replacement. Anyone done this swap, I thought I read something about an expensive retro fit kit being needed?   or is: Weldon 18020-A  a drop in replacement for the 1499 dukes? 

From what I see in the IPC, the original pump is PN 610153-501 (Dukes 1499-00-19). If you go to the FAA PMA database, it appears the Weldon PMA pump is PN 18020-A. As a PMA part it is supposed to be an exact replacement. Not saying it is, but it's supposed to be...    

Weldon-Pump-Mooney-Aircraft-Application-List.pdf

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by JimB

[JimB]

And according to this older post, it was a direct and easy swap. 

 

 

[Marauder]

14 hours ago, J0nathan225 said:

Well played.  Well I'm off to tap on it, after that Aeromotor it is. Thanks everyone!

I did the Weldon conversion back in the 1990s. I had my original pump repaired twice prior to that. Back then, the Weldon required a retrofit kit. Weldon, as you mentioned above, has a drop in version. I highly recommend it. It is a continuous use pump (just in case you miss it on the checklist). The original pump is not and if I recall correctly, the issue was with the material used for the impellers. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Marauder

[Shadrach]

40 minutes ago, JimB said:

And according to this older post, it was a direct and easy swap. 

 

 

Weldon is a great idea.  I mean this is Aviation...Spending $1300 when a $350 OH will give the same level of reliability is just smart maintenance...

[Marauder]

I had to take a trip down memory lane (and in my logs) to look at the history of my Dukes pump. My Dukes failed three times. Once back in the mid 1980s and it was repaired by the previous owner. The second time was for a motor issue that George's took care of for me in the early 1990s. The third time was for a failed impeller in 1995. Instead of repairing it, I replaced it with the Mooney retrofit kit 940018 which included the Weldon pump. It required a replumbing. That pump has been in operation for 26 years.

I met with Weldon at Oshkosh a few years ago and they mentioned that they now sell the direct fit pump. 

[Shadrach]

20 hours ago, Marauder said:

I had to take a trip down memory lane (and in my logs) to look at the history of my Dukes pump. My Dukes failed three times. Once back in the mid 1980s and it was repaired by the previous owner. The second time was for a motor issue that George's took care of for me in the early 1990s. The third time was for a failed impeller in 1995. Instead of repairing it, I replaced it with the Mooney retrofit kit 940018 which included the Weldon pump. It required a replumbing. That pump has been in operation for 26 years.

I met with Weldon at Oshkosh a few years ago and they mentioned that they now sell the direct fit pump. 

My experience with the Dukes was the same as yours... up until 2 1/2 years ago. Had Ole not designed fixes for all of the weak points, I'd have likely gone with a Weldon. Ole recommended the upgraded Dukes.  Given that he sells and overhauls both I was inclined to take his advice. So far it’s exceeded expectations.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Shadrach

[Moonpilot]

Last week I had to make a force landing as the leaking pump, whch my mechanic checked dripped out 7.5 plus gallons loosing my reserve 15 miles of the airport.

This Duke pump which is usually used for prime and emergency failed me while loosing fuel in flight… This will become a required ad.

I have never read about anyone loosing fuel in flight because of this pump, maybe I am the first.. 

Plane has to be recovered and wings removed to transport eight hours, fortunately gear didn’t come down all the way and acted like an anchor sending down and off the hill possibly flipping.  

Replace if within doubt. 

 

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

56 minutes ago, Moonpilot said:

Last week I had to make a force landing as the leaking pump, whch my mechanic checked dripped out 7.5 plus gallons loosing my reserve 15 miles of the airport.

This Duke pump which is usually used for prime and emergency failed me while loosing fuel in flight… This will become a required ad.

I have never read about anyone loosing fuel in flight because of this pump, maybe I am the first.. 

Plane has to be recovered and wings removed to transport eight hours, fortunately gear didn’t come down all the way and acted like an anchor sending down and off the hill possibly flipping.  

Replace if within doubt. 

 

 

 

 

Glad you and yours were OK. How long of a flight? How long was the pump in service? 

[Janat83]

1 hour ago, Moonpilot said:

Last week I had to make a force landing as the leaking pump, whch my mechanic checked dripped out 7.5 plus gallons loosing my reserve 15 miles of the airport.

This Duke pump which is usually used for prime and emergency failed me while loosing fuel in flight… This will become a required ad.

I have never read about anyone loosing fuel in flight because of this pump, maybe I am the first.. 

Plane has to be recovered and wings removed to transport eight hours, fortunately gear didn’t come down all the way and acted like an anchor sending down and off the hill possibly flipping.  

Replace if within doubt. 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you're OK, sad story and I'm shocked to know that it happened that fast. 

[carusoam]

On 9/11/2022 at 10:06 PM, Moonpilot said:

Last week I had to make a force landing as the leaking pump, whch my mechanic checked dripped out 7.5 plus gallons loosing my reserve 15 miles of the airport.

This Duke pump which is usually used for prime and emergency failed me while loosing fuel in flight… This will become a required ad.

I have never read about anyone loosing fuel in flight because of this pump, maybe I am the first.. 

Plane has to be recovered and wings removed to transport eight hours, fortunately gear didn’t come down all the way and acted like an anchor sending down and off the hill possibly flipping.  

Replace if within doubt. 

 

 

 

 

Welcome aboard MoonPilot…

Got any pics?

Where did this occur (location, airport, state, town…)

 

We have a few people that know about recovery of Mooneys around here…

Let me invite a few…

@M20Doc

@mike_elliott

There will be many people interested in how the fuel escaped…

ADs can be slower than most MSers…

Best regards,

-a-