starter adapter replacement on 252 questions

[Will.iam]

I have a question to anybody that has had to replace their starter adapter on a TSIO-360mb engine, Who did you purchase from?  Did you send yours in for an IRAN or did you do the exchange option to save on down time of the aircraft.  What price did you pay? what is the labor / time to swap out a starter adapter?  Is a 252 harder to swap out due to the extra alternator and intercooler being in the way? do you have to take the engine off the mounts to get the adapter off?

One shop quoted 10 hours of labor and an adapter exchange for $3500.  Does this seem right?  I thought I saw on here somewhere that you can get the next spring size smaller to fit on the shaft and that cost $700 plus labor.  Just trying to figure out how much this is going to cost since I have no data points of reference.

Thanks,

Will

[jetdriven]

By the energizer starter and a new starter adapter. The rebuilt adapters and the iskra starters are total crap And they’ll  leave you stranded somewhere then you get to pay it again

[Will.iam]

29 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

By the energizer starter and a new starter adapter. The rebuilt adapters and the iskra starters are total crap And they’ll  leave you stranded somewhere then you get to pay it again

Good to know. How much labor time did it take to change the adapter?

where did you buy yours from?

[Guest]

I send mine to Niagara Airparts/ Canadian Aero Manufacturing.  Toss the Iskra and Sky-Tec starter motor in the trash and buy an Energizer or Tempest.

The more stuff to remove, the greater the labour cost.

Clarence

[231MJ]

+1 for Niagara Airparts.  Super helpful and fast turn.  A new/rebuilt starter is a good idea.  I got the energizer and now have much better cranking and it seems like less drain on the battery (my hot starts require more cranking time).  There is a lot to remove to get at the adapter and while it's out you should consider getting the alternator rebuilt.  It's easier to get at when the adapter is out. I know...it's money but will probably save some bucks in the long run.

[Will.iam]

I was hoping to see the part number to identify what type of starter i had. No such luck with the scat hose rubbing on it for who knows how long. I’ll try to get my borescope camera underneath to see if there are any other marking and to try and get the adapter number as well. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:10 PM, Will.iam said:

I was hoping to see the part number to identify what type of starter i had. No such luck with the scat hose rubbing on it for who knows how long. I’ll try to get my borescope camera underneath to see if there are any other marking and to try and get the adapter number as well. 

It looks like you have one of the heavier, good starters. It looks like a rebuilt 646275, but if someone is going in there to swap the starter adaptor, looking at the age of the starter and the labor to go  in there I would swap it out (go to Aircraft Spruce and search 646275). 

[louisut]

We purchased an overhauled one from http://www.aircraftspecialties.aero/. The overhaul was $1400 with a $3000 core. This was for a TSIO-520-NB though (642085). It started leaking a little some months later, and while the part repair was warrantied, the labor was not. Our A&P had bad experiences with Niagara and didn't want to work with them, but seems that others have had no issues... YMMV. The R&R was an all-day job.

I was concerned about the weight of the Energizer starter so I looked into lighter ones. Eventually I ruled out the lightweights (e.g. Skytec). Anecdotally they seem to be fine for four-cylinders, but struggle with large bore sixes. Hartzell has a line of "midweight" starters (e.g., PM1207) that are supposed to be as durable but ~10 lb lighter, but I had no luck actually sourcing one. I went as far as talking with Hartzell factory directly.

In the end, the starter tested ok so we decided to just keep it for the time being.

Edited June 2, 2021 by louisut

[Will.iam]

21 minutes ago, louisut said:

We purchased an overhauled one from http://www.aircraftspecialties.aero/. The overhaul was $1400 with a $3000 core. This was for a TSIO-520-NB though (642085). It started leaking a little some months later, and while the part repair was warrantied, the labor was not. Our A&P had bad experiences with Niagara and didn't want to work with them, but seems that others have had no issues... YMMV. The R&R was an all-day job.

I was concerned about the weight of the Energizer starter so I looked into lighter ones. Eventually I ruled out the lightweights (e.g. Skytec). Anecdotally they seem to be fine for four-cylinders, but struggle with large bore sixes. Hartzell has a line of "midweight" starters (e.g., PM1207) that are supposed to be as durable but ~10 lb lighter, but I had no luck actually sourcing one. I went as far as talking with Hartzell factory directly.

In the end, the starter tested ok so we decided to just keep it for the time being.

So when places say $1400 overhaul $3000 core that means i get charged $4300 and then when i send in my old starter they credit me back up to $3000 depending on how usable my old starter was correct?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Will.iam said:

So when places say $1400 overhaul $3000 core that means i get charged $4300 and then when i send in my old starter they credit me back up to $3000 depending on how usable my old starter was correct?

That’s been my experience, however you seldom get full core value back.

Clarence

[Will.iam]

On 6/2/2021 at 5:02 PM, M20Doc said:

That’s been my experience, however you seldom get full core value back.

Clarence

Yea i figured. If i got all my $3000 back then the old core was in such good shape there was nothing wrong with it and i wouldn’t have needed to replace it in the first place. 

[shawnd]

+1 on avoiding the light weight starters. They are known to cause issues (search around). After a clutch spring failure in the starter adapter, had mine overhauled by Western Skyways and had them get me a OH starter as well.  Works well.

[M20F]

18 hours ago, shawnd said:

+1 on avoiding the light weight starters. They are known to cause issues (search around). After a clutch spring failure in the starter adapter, had mine overhauled by Western Skyways and had them get me a OH starter as well.  Works well.

The first Skytec I put on lasted one start.  Since then almost 1000hrs.  We did notice the bolts holding it together started to loosen a bit ago and tightened them back up.  
 

If I had to do it all over again not sure what I would do.  I carry a spare on the hat rack. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/2/2021 at 2:15 PM, louisut said:

We purchased an overhauled one from http://www.aircraftspecialties.aero/. The overhaul was $1400 with a $3000 core. This was for a TSIO-520-NB though (642085). It started leaking a little some months later, and while the part repair was warrantied, the labor was not. Our A&P had bad experiences with Niagara and didn't want to work with them, but seems that others have had no issues... YMMV. The R&R was an all-day job.

I was concerned about the weight of the Energizer starter so I looked into lighter ones. Eventually I ruled out the lightweights (e.g. Skytec). Anecdotally they seem to be fine for four-cylinders, but struggle with large bore sixes. Hartzell has a line of "midweight" starters (e.g., PM1207) that are supposed to be as durable but ~10 lb lighter, but I had no luck actually sourcing one. I went as far as talking with Hartzell factory directly.

In the end, the starter tested ok so we decided to just keep it for the time being.

I had a bad experience with Aircraft Specialities/Tulsa in 2015 on an Ovation that I owned. They quoted me about the same for the adaptor, $1400 plus $3000 core. Before I purchased I asked what determined whether I would get my $3000 core returned. He said you'll get it back, don't worry. I went for it, sent my core back immediately after receiving the rebuilt adaptor, and weeks after I still hadn't received the refund on my core charge, so I had to contact them. They said, oh yeah the parts to rebuild it came to more than $3000, but you're off the hook for the rest. Well first of all I paid them $4400, so the first $1400 should account for some of the parts to rebuild it.  I asked for a list of all of the parts that were bad and he laughed and said that they don't do that. After going back and forth and getting nowhere I asked American Express to step in and Aircraft Specialities never responded to my dispute, so American Express refunded my core. Needless to say I have never bought anything else from Aircraft Specialties

[shawnd]

Day for thread updates -since its hot as heck in Seattle   Coordinated with Western Skyways and got an overhauled starter from Aerotech of Louisville and Western Skyways did the overhaul of the starter adapter. Took the opportunity to replace the vacuum pump as well. System works well now!

What it should look like:

What we found (luckily we found the broken off piece within the adapter assembly but we still flushed the system for safety):

 

[Bartman]

Good on you for finding that broken piece.  I have the Skytec on my 4cyl IO-360 and some have said you can taxi with the 149 NL starter.  My first one lasted about 800hrs but did crap out at the worst time on the ramp at KDTS. 

[carusoam]

Great update with pic Shawn!

-a-

[Will.iam]

Well dugosh Aviation sent my starter adapter to QAA initially they said all they needed was a starter adapter but then they also requested later on the mount as well so we burned a week waiting on the extra parts to ship up there so they can test it just found out today that the shaft and two gears need to be replaced $1800 + price of parts, and they’re searching for those parts as they’re not available right now I give it until Wednesday if they haven’t found the parts by then or if it’s going to take weeks to get I’m going to just switch over to a core exchange and most likely eat the thousand dollar core that i’ll probably not get back for the state of my starter adapter. So $2800 now or see what’s behind door number 2 by wednesday. 

[Will.iam]

They got the replacement parts in but will not be ready til the end of next week?!? I reminded them that they have had the part since the beginning of September because i wanted the repair to be complete before the last week in sept as my a&p is going on vacation in oct and i want the annual complete before he leaves. They said they would try to get to it sooner in the week. I knew the annual would take about a month because of all the work being done to it but never thought the main part i needed to get fixed would sit for 3 weeks before they even looked at it. I guess this is the new normal for parts these days? Might be the number one reason to get an exchange when i do an engine overhaul as being hostage to parts not available seems to be what to expect these days. 

[1980Mooney]

54 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

They got the replacement parts in but will not be ready til the end of next week?!? I reminded them that they have had the part since the beginning of September because i wanted the repair to be complete before the last week in sept as my a&p is going on vacation in oct and i want the annual complete before he leaves. They said they would try to get to it sooner in the week. I knew the annual would take about a month because of all the work being done to it but never thought the main part i needed to get fixed would sit for 3 weeks before they even looked at it. I guess this is the new normal for parts these days? Might be the number one reason to get an exchange when i do an engine overhaul as being hostage to parts not available seems to be what to expect these days. 

Good luck on that. With that kind of timing it seems extremely tight. 
 

Yes this is the new norm. I just went through an annual from hell.  This is the longest slowest Annual I have ever experienced. My A&P was slow. There were a number of things that they didn’t look at for weeks and then discovered a problem. At what should have been the end of the Annual at 3.5 weeks they declared there was corrosion on the engine mount.  I had to send my engine mount to Rocket Engineering for repair - everything was slow. - shipping and Rocket - and I am talking months. This Annual is measured in months rather than weeks. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[Will.iam]

25 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Good luck on that. With that kind of timing it seems extremely tight. 
 

Yes this is the new norm. I just went through an annual from hell.  This is the longest slowest Annual I have ever experienced. My A&P was slow. There were a number of things that they didn’t look at for weeks and then discovered a problem. At what should have been the end of the Annual at 3.5 weeks they declared there was corrosion on the engine mount.  I had to send my engine mount to Rocket Engineering for repair - everything was slow. - shipping and Rocket - and I am talking months. This Annual is measured in months rather than weeks. 

Uuugh depressing. 

[carusoam]

Will,

To help get your message across…. For a single part that is keeping you from flying…

Tradition is to use the letters AOG with all of your communication…

This lets everyone know you need this thing ASAP because your aircraft is stuck on the Ground without it…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Will.iam]

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Will,

To help get your message across…. For a single part that is keeping you from flying…

Tradition is to use the letters AOG with all of your communication…

This lets everyone know you need this thing ASAP because your aircraft is stuck on the Ground without it…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

True but the aircraft is in annual and for the annual to extend a couple more weeks because of a part that is on backorder I wouldn’t think of this as AOG as i planned the airplane to be on the ground and the location. I view AOG as an unplanned outbase landing / stuck. I.E. if i came out to my plane and on preflight noticed a part i needed to get and was grounded until the part came in I wouldn’t think of it as an AOG because the plane is in my home hanger. 

[carusoam]

Sort of AOG…

Kinda AOG…

 

Dear sirs, please get this part for me so my flying doesn’t get delayed another couple of weeks… waiting for my mechanic to get back in town…

If I get by Tuesday… the world will be a better place….

 

Its a flying emergency… almost…

 

Comfortable enough that you are not stuck paying for a hotel bill 1kmi away…. 

 

Soooo….   It’s not exactly AOG… and that would be crying wolf….

But….  They do have a system in place that gets enabled by the letters AOG…. See if you can enable the system…. Without crying wolf…

 

Sounds like the opportunity has gotten by already… as your mechanic has already headed out… and things are on hold until he gets back…

 

PP thoughts about owner communication, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[1980Mooney]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Sort of AOG…

Kinda AOG…

 

Dear sirs, please get this part for me so my flying doesn’t get delayed another couple of weeks… waiting for my mechanic to get back in town…

If I get by Tuesday… the world will be a better place….

 

Its a flying emergency… almost…

 

Comfortable enough that you are not stuck paying for a hotel bill 1kmi away…. 

 

Soooo….   It’s not exactly AOG… and that would be crying wolf….

But….  They do have a system in place that gets enabled by the letters AOG…. See if you can enable the system…. Without crying wolf…

 

Sounds like the opportunity has gotten by already… as your mechanic has already headed out… and things are on hold until he gets back…

 

PP thoughts about owner communication, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

 

I am wondering how in this day and age “AOG“ makes any difference. If a part is available, in inventory or on the shelf then all you have to do is agree to pay exorbitant overnight shipping. It doesn’t seem that there’s any way to expedite faster than that.  If a part is not available then no amount of “AOG“ is going to make it magically appear - look at the no-back spring thread above. https://mooneyspace.com/topic/39944-source-for-gear-clutch-backspring/?tab=comments#comment-689670  Basically you can go pound sand while waiting. 
 

Now if you’re dealing with something that has a service component required such as IRAN or overhaul it raises a different question.  Virtually every shop has a backlog and no spare capacity.  I suspect the shop has other failed starter adapters in various states of overhaul and repair. Probably every one of those starter adapters came from a  plane that has been down for a significant amount of time waiting for a functioning starter adapter. What justification would the shop have to preferentially move one overhaul up and push another back further disadvantaging that owner. They are all down and unflyable. Everyone just needs to wait in line. 
 

I’m not sure what others experience has been lately but it seems to me that the service businesses are staying very disciplined regarding working what they deem regular hours and not interrupting their holidays or vacations.  I have been dealing with Rocket Engineering for 3 months getting an engine mount repaired. They work 4 hours a day 4 days a week. I just spoke to Houston Tank Specialists at Eagle Lake. They are booked through January. If you have a serious chronic leak you just have to get in line and wait. And i would be seriously upset if my schedule got bumped after waiting weeks and months because they said someone was “AOG”