Paint restoration - no clear coat

[SLOWR426]

My ‘67 F model is lacking in the luster department.  Looks like the paint job (not factory) has lost 98% of it’s clear coat.

Is it possible with some elbow grease to wax a flat, oxidized paint?  I have waxing experience from cars, but have never polished or done a clay bar on anything. I’d be worried about polishing through the paint on the rivets.

And if it’s possible to wax this, how long will it last?

[RLCarter]

Title says “No Clear Coat” your plane definitely HAD a clear coat at one time, I’d be very careful trying to buff to a shine as the base coat (color) probably isn’t very thick (a mil or 2) which you can burn through very quickly 

[jetdriven]

Problem with clear coat  paint jobs on aircraft, is eventually this happens, and that’s all got to come off and get redone

[carusoam]

Clear coat is not a standard for Mooneys... it weighs extra.

To find out more about what paint you have... it is in your logs from when that paint was probably added...

Low cost clear coats like on my chevys.... lasts about 10-15years.... outdoors....

They look really nice for a while... nice gloss and depth of shine....

The clear coat often gets drips... and turns yellow over time... before completely failing...

 

What’s next in the plan?

See if you can find out exactly what you have first...

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

I’d bet money it doesn’t have a clear coat, clear coat is a recent thing for aircraft and that paint doesn’t look recent.

You can tell by taking a rag with a little lacquer thinner on it and rub the paint,  if it gets color on the rag, it’s not clear coated.

Yes it can be fixed sort of, at least you can restore some of the shine, it will last as long as the wax lasts, if kept hangered quite a while.

To buff a airplane I use a Makita buffer, not a random orbit polisher, that will take forever.

Don’t use compound unless you know what your doing, use a fine polish, yes it will take longer but your far less likely to cause damage, with compound you can damage paint very quickly.

‘This buffer has a newer model is all, pretty much the same, you can see I bought the machine glaze to polish my Mooney after I bought it

Best idea is find an old car even a junkyard car or an old boat to practice on, then do the airplane once your comfortable

Get the foam pads too, the wool cuts faster than foam does.

After it’s polished I like Collinite fleet wax, it’s old school airplane and boat carnauba wax

Oh, beware of miracle paint restorers / rejuvenators, it’s going to take work, but the polishing machine  will make it a whole lot easier

Edited May 18, 2021 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

I would buff it out, it will make it look a lot better. If you tried some 1um (2500 grit) paper on the places where the clear coat is failing, you may be able to sand the clear coat off, but there is a high likelihood you will sand through the color coat.

[A64Pilot]

First year for Sherwin Willams base coat - clear coat was 2008, took a few years to catch on as us old school guys didn’t trust it, I still don’t

So I’d assume someone tried to spray automotive clear coat on old aircraft paint to give it a shine?

If so I’m afraid any polishing you do is sort of like the lipstick on a pig thing, meaning it may not be much of an improvement, but why not try.

[Rmag]

@SLOWR426's pictures are a basecoat clearcoat and it looks like either automotive paint, or a poor-quality aviation paint modeled after automotive paint processes.

With automotive paint the basecoat completely dries and then you put clear coat over it.  The clear is just laying on top of the base color, and over time you get what happens in the OP’s pictures.

I previously made a thread why you do not want to use automotive paints on your aircraft here:  Is using automotive paint on airplanes legal? - General Mooney Talk - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts

Modern Aviation paint is basecoat/clearcoat however the clear is applied as a wet on wet application so you get a chemical bond to the basecoat.  Paint applied this way will never have a separation of the clearcoat like the OP’s pictures.  The benefit of this that when you polish/buff the aircraft you are cutting clear, and never cutting into the actual basecoat color.

There is also aviation paint that is a single stage paint which does not get a clearcoat.  This is what should be used for a person not wanting a clearcoat or not using metallic or pearlescent paints.   Metallic or pearlescent paints require a clearcoat.  The negative with single stage paint is that when you polish and buff the paint, you are cutting the color of the paint.  Each time this is done, it slightly damages the colored paint and over time makes the paint lose its luster and look chalky or flat.

[PT20J]

50 minutes ago, Rmag said:

@SLOWR426's pictures are a basecoat clearcoat and it looks like either automotive paint, or a poor-quality aviation paint modeled after automotive paint processes.

With automotive paint the basecoat completely dries and then you put clear coat over it.  The clear is just laying on top of the base color, and over time you get what happens in the OP’s pictures.

I previously made a thread why you do not want to use automotive paints on your aircraft here:  Is using automotive paint on airplanes legal? - General Mooney Talk - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts

Modern Aviation paint is basecoat/clearcoat however the clear is applied as a wet on wet application so you get a chemical bond to the basecoat.  Paint applied this way will never have a separation of the clearcoat like the OP’s pictures.  The benefit of this that when you polish/buff the aircraft you are cutting clear, and never cutting into the actual basecoat color.

There is also aviation paint is a single stage paint which does not get a clearcoat.  This is what should be used for a person not wanting a clearcoat or not using metallic or pearlescent paints.   Metallic or pearlescent paints require a clearcoat.  The negative with single stage paint is that when you polish and buff the paint, you are cutting the color of the paint.  Each time this is done, it slightly damages the colored paint and over time makes the paint lose its luster and look chalky or flat.

Seems like an advantage to clearcoat is blending repairs. Single stage 2K polyurethane is pretty tough to blend. Any thoughts on this?

Skip

[A64Pilot]

Single stage is easier to repair in my opinion, and longer lasting and more durable, but maybe not as pretty and you can’t have metallic etc paints

My swag is that new aircraft are still usually single stage, be interesting to know. We did some custom base coat / clear coat and it looks pretty

When I first took over a manufacturing line, we were having all kinds of paint issues on new aircraft, turns out we were using automotive paint, and cheap automotive paint at that. 

‘So I started researching aircraft paint, I found out that Air Force one, the Blue Angles and Thunderbirds all used the same brand and type of paint, that was Sherwin Williams Jet-Glo and our paint problems ceased when I switched us to Jet-Glo, and also even though the paint was much more expensive, the re-work went almost to zero so it in fact saved money buying the high dollar paint, Later the new owner switched to PPG to save money and some of our old problems resurfaced.  A very high quality paint is easier to apply and doesn’t require as much skill to get a quality job.

‘Now PPG is I’m sure a fine paint but I believe it takes more skill to get good results and we didn’t have the required skill level apparently, because I have seen some gorgeous PPG paint jobs.

Maule uses I believe U-Tec automotive single stage paint with the additive for rubber bumpers to make the paint flexible so it doesn’t crack on the fabric parts of the airplane. 

This is a neighbors RV-8 and it’s automotive paint, I doubt he could do that in aircraft paint.

‘Automotive paint most of it anyway has become extremely conscious of VOC’s and I don’t believe aircraft paint has yet, and losing the VOC’s and keeping the quality is tough.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Rmag]

18 hours ago, PT20J said:

Seems like an advantage to clearcoat is blending repairs. Single stage 2K polyurethane is pretty tough to blend. Any thoughts on this?

An experienced painter can blend either.  What becomes difficult is trying to blend old worn sun-faded paint, etc.  To do good blends you need to know the tricks that come from years of doing them.

I Agree with @A64Pilot above regarding Sherwin Williams Jet-Glo is a good paint.  As is Axalta.  Also agree that PPG is cheaper and not as good, but an experienced painter can use it.  We mostly spray Axalta which used to be DuPont.  But we will spray Sherwin, PPG, Akzo Nobel if required by a specific fleet customer that has a whole fleet of one kind of paint, etc..  We never spray automotive on aircraft.

[carusoam]

@A64Pilot,

With a show plane finish like that...

Does that plane actually fly?

any limitations like nice weather only?

Or simply avoid rain or snow....
 

PP thoughts only, not a paint guru...

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

He flies it pretty often, I assume he avoids rain like the plague though, I would.

‘The whole bottom is a single large image, I think maybe an Angel, the left wing is the Blue Angels with the pilots pictures, the right is a P-38 and it’s pilots image.

[Vaughn]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

He flies it pretty often, I assume he avoids rain like the plague though, I would.

‘The whole bottom is a single large image, I think maybe an Angel, the left wing is the Blue Angels with the pilots pictures, the right is a P-38 and it’s pilots image.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 10:26 PM, SLOWR426 said:

My ‘67 F model is lacking in the luster department.  Looks like the paint job (not factory) has lost 98% of it’s clear coat.

Is it possible with some elbow grease to wax a flat, oxidized paint?  I have waxing experience from cars, but have never polished or done a clay bar on anything. I’d be worried about polishing through the paint on the rivets.

And if it’s possible to wax this, how long will it last?

My M20F's paint was oxidized, very flat, it felt a little rough too. I washed it really well then polished it using Griot's Polishing Compound, Griot's Garage 10862 Complete Compound 16oz https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PA2LMD2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_52XDKJFE5NZAT33F7CMA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 using a variable speed polisher with a 6" orange buffing pad. Worked 2x2 foot sections, plenty of good videos out there, this one is great: 

I had previously tried a combination of Meigures, Griots results were superior. I then applied Rejex, again in small sections, don't let it set too long. The paint was almost slippery after just polishing. Looks great! Try small areas, keep the polisher close and in control and take your time. If you're in the Arkansas River Valley I'd be glad to help.

[carusoam]

I used Maguiars on my ancient M20C...

Being outdoors is pretty tough on the surface...

Of course... removing the surface works pretty well.... but there is only so many times you can do that...

Once a year... all done by hand.... don’t need to go to the gym for a month after that... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Warren]

If you want it to look “OK,” you can try simply waxing it.  This will help fill in/cover up some of the oxidized paint.  It will require frequent reapplication but is by far the lowest cost option.

If you really want to make it look its best, the only option is to do a polish.  You have to remove all the oxidized paint and get down to good quality paint.  Depending on how thick the paint is this can be a touchy process.  However, you will not get a good shine until the oxidized paint is gone.  The thinner it is, the more careful you have to be.  Worst case you burn through in some areas and may have to do some touch up.  It is much easier to match the base color (after a good polish) than an oxidized paint.

Once you get it to a good shine, protect it so you don’t have to do it again.  Ceramic coatings are great for this.  And, the basis for any quality ceramic coating is a paint correction prior to application.

From the pictures, the only bad areas are the stripes on the top surfaces (those most exposed to the sun).  The sides and base color looks pretty good. Polishing should quickly remove all the loose material and get you on to polishing the paint.  Go slowly and hopefully you can removed the oxidized layer to reveal good looking paint.  Worst case is the stripes are beyond saving and will cut through in some areas.  You should then be able to match and touch up the stripes and have a pretty good looking plane.

[M20F]

11 hours ago, Warren said:

If you want it to look “OK,” you can try simply waxing it.  This will help fill in/cover up some of the oxidized paint.  It will require frequent reapplication but is by far the lowest cost option.

If you really want to make it look its best, the only option is to do a polish.  You have to remove all the oxidized paint and get down to good quality paint.  Depending on how thick the paint is this can be a touchy process.  However, you will not get a good shine until the oxidized paint is gone.  The thinner it is, the more careful you have to be.  Worst case you burn through in some areas and may have to do some touch up.  It is much easier to match the base color (after a good polish) than an oxidized paint.

Once you get it to a good shine, protect it so you don’t have to do it again.  Ceramic coatings are great for this.  And, the basis for any quality ceramic coating is a paint correction prior to application.

From the pictures, the only bad areas are the stripes on the top surfaces (those most exposed to the sun).  The sides and base color looks pretty good. Polishing should quickly remove all the loose material and get you on to polishing the paint.  Go slowly and hopefully you can removed the oxidized layer to reveal good looking paint.  Worst case is the stripes are beyond saving and will cut through in some areas.  You should then be able to match and touch up the stripes and have a pretty good looking plane.

This is the deal.  If your paint is thin you can’t really do much.  Only way it gets better is grinding off the oxidation, which if the paint is thin just doesn’t work.  You will also find a lot of varying thickness on most single stage paints.  My 71 MGB varies between 2’ thick and 2 mm’s as an example. 
 

Once you get it nice Jescar Powerlock is what you want to use.  I was a Collinite guy for years but Jescar just is amazing stuff. 
 

I find single stage a lot easier to make better but takes a lot more work to keep it that way.  The Mooney looks great from 15’ away :-)