Releasing Mooney for prebuy...

[MIm20c]

I’ve noticed over the years there seems to division between some buyers/sellers about the prebuy process.  On the buyers side they feel having their own shop/trusted shop/popular shop of the week go through everything to make sure expensive surprises are not found later on. Sometimes/often the sellers are unwilling to release their plane to just anyone to tear apart for fear the mechanic will be unreasonable or not have the expertise to do the job properly. 
 

Thoughts? Reasoning? Examples of extremes in both directions?

 

I’m looking at listing a plane in 6 months or so.  I’m considering a middle ground that I’ll fly the plane to a local (100 miles?) mechanic who will have to sign a release that the plane will be returned to the exact condition it arrived. That document, which will limit the days to complete inspection, will need a signature w/IA number before a screwdriver comes out.  Worthwhile? 

[alextstone]

I think as a start, perhaps agreeing to use a respected MSC might be fair to both parties.

[Davidv]

I don't think I could let any mechanic I didn't know perform a pre-buy without me present for the whole thing.  That's really the only thing that would give me some comfort that the pre-buy mechanic wasn't endangering my life or wallet while taking things apart and putting them back together.  As for the release, I'm not sure it would be too effective in mitigating your concerns.  At the end of the day, if something goes wrong later on, it's going to be near impossible to prove that it was that mechanic's fault unless it's totally egregious and the accident/breakdown that occurred didn't destroy the evidence.

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

mechanic who will have to sign a release that the plane will be returned to the exact condition it arrived

Is there a mechanic who would sign that? I doubt it. 

[MIm20c]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Is there a mechanic who would sign that? I doubt it. 

How would you change the wording so they would be required to put the plane back together?  Let’s say for instance he found some play in your turbo shaft and won’t put the plane together unless it’s corrected by him...and he’s the only one allowed to work on the field?

17 minutes ago, alextstone said:

I think as a start, perhaps agreeing to use a respected MSC might be fair to both parties.

If the buyer refuses to pay the higher cost of a msc prebuy?  Or one is not conveniently located?

[201er]

Do you wanna sell the plane or not?? If your goal is to sell the plane, does it really matter if the buyer picked the wrong mechanic if they’re keeping it? And if they’re not, I doubt the next buyer is going to have an issue (unless mechanic joe dug up a lot of undisclosed problems during the prenup).

[201er]

1 minute ago, MIm20c said:

How would you change the wording so they would be required to put the plane back together?  Let’s say for instance he found some play in your turbo shaft and won’t put the plane together unless it’s corrected by him...and he’s the only one allowed to work on the field?

If the buyer refuses to pay the higher cost of a msc prebuy?  Or one is not conveniently located?

Maybe you’re better phrasing how the plane must be returned from prebuy and who pays the put together bills in your buyer agreement. After all you’re holding their deposit.

[mike_elliott]

As an educated buyer, I would have a list of acceptable mooney knowledgeable shops to present to have a prebuy done at. As an educated seller, I would welcome my plane to go thru a prebuy at one of these shops.  If as a seller your hiding something or afraid of having to cover an airworthiness issue and reject this,  expect an educated buyer to walk. If your a buyer and are afraid of potentially paying about 2/3 the cost of a base annual for a very thorough pre purchase inspection, including the cost of repositioning, then you need to decide what your risk tolerance level is.

[ArtVandelay]

Buyer doesn’t trust the sellers mechanic, and sellers don’t trust the buyers mechanic.
Busch says to insure the prebuy is not called an inspection (call it appraisal), otherwise regulatory rules apply.
If I was the seller I would want a list of what the prebuy will consist of. I also would want to check out the reputation of the mechanic.

[G-SLOT]

I'm sympathetic to these issues, both as a buyer and as a seller.

There are a few shops near me that I would not let anywhere near my aircraft and, if that meant losing a buyer, so be it. My view is that, while I own the aircraft and am responsible for paying its bills and for its condition, I am entitled to be very fussy about anyone touching or flying it.

On the other hand, no buyer should be expected to make or pressured into a purchase decision without being comfortable that an independent and trusted expert has assessed and reported on its condition. After all, it's caveat emptor in most aircraft sales/purchases.

A prebuy inspection must be subject to the seller's approval and, if the seller's conditions as to location, shop or the extent of the inspection create a situation where the buyer cannot achieve what he/she wants from the inspection, the buyer should simply walk away. That said, the buyer should understand, and in some cases take comfort from, a seller who is maintenance focussed and concerned about what an unknown party might do to his/her aircraft - it swings both ways as one also has to be very careful about a seller trying to hide something.

I've seen terms in purchase contracts about the buyer returning the aircraft to the seller in no worse condition than prior to the prebuy inspection (if the deal does not go ahead). It's a little vague but captures the spirit. There are also typical terms around the prebuy shop being satisfactory to both parties. 

[MIm20c]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

Maybe you’re better phrasing how the plane must be returned from prebuy and who pays the put together bills in your buyer agreement. After all you’re holding their deposit.

That’s all I was referring to, good idea to have it in the buyers agreement. 

[mike_elliott]

Just now, MIm20c said:

That’s all I was referring to, good idea to have it in the buyers agreement. 

It is in most of the precanned PA's I have seen

[bradp]

I’d be ok with certain shops opening up my plane.  Others I wouldn’t let near it.  Should be worked out prior to signing a PA. 

[gsxrpilot]

37 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

How would you change the wording so they would be required to put the plane back together?  Let’s say for instance he found some play in your turbo shaft and won’t put the plane together unless it’s corrected by him...and he’s the only one allowed to work on the field?

That's a valid point. I think I'd just want to make sure it's just a pre-buy appraisal as @ArtVandelay put it. Nothing is going in the log book, and so there is no liability on the part of the shop. They open it up, have a look, and put it back together.

I also believe that the agreement should be between the seller and the buyer, in writing, and backed up with a deposit. If there is a problem with the shop, I'm keeping the deposit.

The only unairworthy designation an IA can ever attach to an airplane is during an Annual or 100 hr Inspection and it's noted in the log book. Make sure the shop understands and agrees with that position.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Do you wanna sell the plane or not?? If your goal is to sell the plane, does it really matter if the buyer picked the wrong mechanic if they’re keeping it? And if they’re not, I doubt the next buyer is going to have an issue (unless mechanic joe dug up a lot of undisclosed problems during the prenup).

Because the mechanic could really f the plane up. I don’t allow people to touch my plane without my supervision. That’s what I’ve learned from decades of ownership.

Most important thing is to have the mechanic release any ability to have a mechanics lien. If the seller walks the owner is left holding the bag to pay the mechanic if they want their plane back. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

If it was my plane, I'd let the buyer pick between SWTA and Don Maxwell.

[1964-M20E]

Ok so essentially a pre-buy is remove certain inspection panels, belly panels and cowling to have a look see and perform some non-invasive or destructive testing.  I know a lot of people will turn the PPI into an annual if they purchase the plane.

One method is for you or your mechanic open it up at your hangar and the buyer bring his selected mechanic to the hangar to do the PPI and then you close it up afterward.  This way the plane is in your hangar and it does not matter what the visiting mechanic finds you cannot be held hostage.

 

When I bought my first Mooney the owner ferried it to the shop and the mechanic and I went to work under the plane opening it up.  Afterwards we closed it up and I bought the plane.   Since I dove to the field where the mechanic was I flew the plane home a few weeks later.

The second Mooney the owner had the plane open when I arrived did the inspections and then bought it.  I had to fly it home a couple of weeks later because I drove there.  I was without a plane at the time.

[GeeBee]

Negotiate the pre-buy shop in the purchase agreement, and be done with it.

 

[thinwing]

4 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

If it was my plane, I'd let the buyer pick between SWTA and Don Maxwell.

good advice if I based in Dallas...not so great if im on either coast

[Parker_Woodruff]

4 minutes ago, thinwing said:

good advice if I based in Dallas...not so great if im on either coast

Top Gun or LASAR if I lived over there.  Or maybe Advanced up in OR.

[thinwing]

agreed

[Parker_Woodruff]

AGL on the east coast

[mike_elliott]

Oasis in the Midwest

[steingar]

Buyer and seller have to agree.  That's all there is to it.

[RJBrown]

Every deal is different.

when I bought 231NH it was in the Denver metro area. I drove to his house, on a airport, we flew together to the local Mooney Dealer/repair shop Arapahoe Aero. We were both present for the prebuy.

When I sold 231NH the buyer paid me to fly it to Top Gun, paid my hotel bill while the plane was checked. Then paid my airline ticket to Denver. Top Gun then did a annual. Buyer paid my airline ticket back to California. We flew it together to Las Vegas. He left it there for 90 days because of sales/use tax rules. Funds transferred from Vegas he paid my flight home. The Vegas deal saved him $17,500 in state taxes.

Purchase of 1079V. It was based in Greeley Colorado. I inspected and flew with him there. He flew it to Arapahoe Aero for prebuy. We closed through escrow.

When I sold it the buyer trusted the recent annual at Arapahoe Aero. No prebuy. 
each time the planes were as represented and both parties were happy afterwards.

While shopping I found a Bravo in Texas. I flew there, test flew and had a prebuy done in Denton Texas at US Aviation, a Mooney Service Center.

The plane was NOT as represented. Seller was not lying about the plane. He had bought it recently without a prebuy and thought he had a great plane. He was forced to sell because of a divorce. He had been had by the California lawyer that saw him coming. I made a corresponding offer and was turned down. 6 months later he sold it for less than I offered. Between the Crooked lawyer and the exwife he got screwed over in the deal. Poor guy shoulda had a pre nup and a pre buy. Cost him close to $100,000 to own a plane he flew just a few times. Hate to think what the good doctor paid for Her Services.
 

each time the buyer paid the costs associated with the pre buy. Each was done at a Mooney Service center.
The money to prebuy and then pass on the Bravo was money well spent.