Calling All Experts! First Time Mooney Buyer Needs Help!

[201Steve]

+1 for low interest rates. inflation will probably exceed the cost of your loan at the rate the fed is running the press. 
 

I always recommend going above and beyond your first and second budget revision. I hate debt and I hate large loans, but I think I’m this case, it’s worth it and you make out better in the end. I think if you can setup your loan, make your down payment, and have $20-30k cash in a separate account for the guaranteed surprises, it makes all the numbers a bit cleaner. Hoard the cash to pay for the surprises in full, while keeping the bulk of your loan protected by a secure, low interest loan. The opposite would be being cash poor, and then paying a $25,000 shop bill with your credit card to stay flying. You’ll get destroyed by interest. Think “metal in filter” engine Teardowns. 
 

-Not an expert on any thing, but a fierce contender in many thing. 

[MikeOH]

I think you're on the right track.  I, too, valued recent use over just about all else. Beware the 'hangar queens' and 'ramp rats' with low time engines.  The need for an OH shortly after purchase could easily eat up half your purchase price!

I bought my '70F with 2100 SMOH from an owner who had flown it 100 hours per year for the 13 years he owned it.  You may be surprised how hard it is to find a plane at the lower price range that has been flown adequately.  I'm three years and nearly 300 additional hours in with no problems (2400 SMOH).  Thing is, I got a run-out engine price so if it goes TU tomorrow I've had three years of 'free engine time.'  Read Mike Busch's publications regarding maintenance on condition; I think he's run Lycoming's to over 3000 hours!  Do you automatically rebuild your car's engine when it reaches an arbitrary number of miles?

I'm with KLRDMD, though.  I really wanted manual gear, but when the 'right one' came along I accepted the electric gear.  Frankly, it's been trouble free even though the required 100 and 200 hour lube intervals/inspections add a bit to the maintenance cost.  Note that the electric gear in the '70 M20F (and, I think later Fs) does NOT suffer from the notorious $1000 no back spring issue; just the lube/inspection AD.

Other advice is to buy with the avionics you want; GPS and, for certain, the AP.  Adding these after the fact is ridiculously expensive (you could drop $20-25K on the AP, alone!).  And, you will be lucky to get half that back on resale.

Finally, you'll likely have around 1000 pound useful with an M20F, which has 64 gallon tanks, leaving around 620 in the cabin.  With four on board (even kids), luggage, and full fuel you'll be pushing gross.  Be careful if the DA is high!

[BobCW]

23 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

I'd **personally** rather do that with an airplane built in the '70s over one in the '60s.

@Parker_Woodruff I was just having this discussion with someone else. In 2031, I would much rather have purchased the 1975 than the 1965. 

Also expect me to head your way for an insurance quote sometime this year! 

[BobCW]

25 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I always recommend going above and beyond your first and second budget revision

@201Steve another recommendation to flex the budget. Hmmm...this is a tough one!

27 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

With four on board (even kids), luggage, and full fuel you'll be pushing gross

@MikeOHI really do need the 1000lbs Gross I believe. Also thanks for the other insightful advice. I'm going to try and find something that has as many of the goodies in the dash as possible!

[Nokomis449]

What no one has mentioned yet is the lowly G model, AKA "The slowest Mooney".  It's the longer F body with a 180hp engine (vs the F's 200hp).  I'm still getting the rebuilt engine broken in, but I have a few speed mods and appear to be getting about 150kts true at lower altitudes.  Flew to Spruce Creek, FL a few weeks ago for the first long stretch of her legs since the rebuild and got 144kts TAS at 11,000, 66% power, 19.4MP and 2,400RPM, 36deg OAT.  Mine's a 1968 with the manual gear and it'd be a hard sell to move me into another model, because this one is plenty fast and also one of the easiest/cheapest to maintain.  I'm between Huntsville and Birmingham if that's close enough for a meet-up/look-see.

Full disclosure: I'm pretty biased toward the G.

If you know a helo instructor named Tomlinson, tell him the Mooney driver at 8A0 sez "hi".

Edited to add a pic and correct a misspilled wurd.

[carusoam]

Cleaning up some key words....

A-E short bodies...

F-K mid bodies...

L-V long bodies...

There are three different lengths of fuselages for Mooneys...

Some of the mid-bodies got beautiful long noses to cover an extra pair of cylinders... and hide some turbo related equipment...

 

UL... Useful Load... the amount of fuel and people that can be loaded into the plane with near complete knowledge of how the plane is expected to perform...

The least amount of HP available...  180hp...

The most amount of HP available... 310hp...

The G is known as Mooney’s Turtle... It has the lowest hp/wt ratio of the fleet... but it is way better than the other brands best four seaters... 

the extra HP, is most useful in the T/O and climb... a 10% increase in HP can cut the T/O run by a 1/3...

This becomes extra important when expecting to use some short fields... or loading your plane up to MGTW...

There are no bad Mooney models...

Just, some individual planes have lived tougher lives than others... (true for Brand C and P as well, or even worse)

The PPI is the one chance you get to not accidentally buy somebody else’s problem... some problems aren’t usually known to the seller either... very few Mooneys have serious challenges... most parts can be swapped out...

Planes that have been sitting idle... can easily develop challenges...  

Planes that have been sitting out doors... have a much higher chance of developing challenges...

A PPI on a 50 year old M20C that has been sitting idle outdoors in NJ for two years... should get a really good PPI...

A PPI on a 20 year old LB that has been MSC cared for and lives in doors... has really short log books, and fewer owners... and the PPI probably doesn’t need to be overly important...

 

Example A: 1965 M20C... cost to buy 34amu... flown for a decade... sold completely run-out for around 18amu... loss of value... 16 amu...   1.6 amu per year...   

More was spent on fuel...

More was spent on insurance...

Almost as much was spent on the tie down outside... 1.2 amu

 

My M20C was an experiment... does GA fit into my life... 

 

Example B: GA fit into my life really well...

We went and got an M20R...  it’s a big M20C... with a little more room... and a little more speed... it’s just more Mooney... 

When the Mooney costs as much as your house... the PPI is more serious...

In NJ... PPIs for houses are mandatory... so an unknowing owner doesn’t accidentally buy something he can’t afford to fix...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[jaylw314]

15 hours ago, BobCW said:

@jaylw314 thanks for sharing! What exactly are the benefits of using an escrow service (better yet, what is the most reason for using it)? Just to show the buyer you are not a tire kicker or hold the plane while you perform the PPI? 

The main benefit of the escrow service is for your peace of mind, like a house-purchasing contract.  It gives you a place to put your money (including the down payment) which the seller can't run off with if there are any last minute shenanigans.  If you can be there in person and pick up the plane from the owner and hand them the check that day, you might not need it.  I was planning on picking the plane up with my instructor and flying it back, but the weather did not cooperate and I couldn't make it out the following week, so my instructor ended up needing to ferry it back.  He was going to pick it up on a weekend when the bank was closed, and I needed to get him onto my insurance which I couldn't do until the purchase actually happened, and then I needed to make sure he was authorized to sign for the closing documents, blah blah blah...

In other words, what started out as a simple plan turned into a barrel of what-if's in terms of closing the deal.  The escrow company was a huge help, having seen all this before, and they just said to call them once my instructor had the plane and the documents signed, and they dealt with the final payment and notifying the various players.

They also did the title search on the plane.  I saw that turn into a headache when we sold our club plane a few years back

[BobCW]

8 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

In other words, what started out as a simple plan turned into a barrel of what-if's in terms of closing the deal.  The escrow company was a huge help

Wow that personal example make it’s crystal clear! Thanks for sharing. Planning to use an escrow to protect the purchase process for me. Also thanks to @FJC for the direct message discussion on escrow! I have removed the question from my original post and made it a solid part of purchase plan (bullet list).

[Shiny moose]

My .02

Do not be in a hurry

Buy the model that fits your mission. 

Nothing wrong with a 60's Mooney or any other make, its about how its been maintained, locations its lived. 

Buy the best one you can afford, with some of your desired avionics

Not only an escrow but have the title search for history.

Find a very quaified trustworthy Mechanic for the PPI. Not the same one thats been maintaining that particular aircraft 

Have a great PPI done, How about just get an annual done, with(if you can) all airworthy items paid for by seller( airworthy can be subjective, so have discussions on this issue before any PPI is started). 

a list of non airworthy items for your review and approval for purchase, so you can take care of these known issues throughout the next year using your local mechanic. 

Talk with your insurance company, they could require more dual and solo hours than you think. This will add to your initial budget as you will want this done rather quickly.  

Find a real mooney instructor. 

You might spend thousands of dollars upfront, but save yourself 10s of thousands by not buying someone elses problems 

 

[BobCW]

@Shiny moose thanks for the excellent and comprehensive advice!

[carusoam]

Great details Moose!

-a-

[B00kem22]

On 2/14/2021 at 10:13 PM, BobCW said:

@carusoam It sure is!

I’m currently a UH-60 Black Hawk MEDEVAC driver 

My brother does the same for NE Nat guard.  

[jaylw314]

On 2/14/2021 at 8:13 PM, BobCW said:

@carusoam It sure is!

I’m currently a UH-60 Black Hawk MEDEVAC driver. Unfortunately, I don’t get to fly it daily. I will be transitioning to the mighty Chinook later this year though!

I will say, flying in Salem OR, the ANG Black Hawk guys are some of the most polite pilots I've run into out here.  Doing night pattern work at an uncontrolled field, they go out of their way to make things easy for a lone guy in a Mooney.  If Black Hawk drivers are like that you're certainly welcome here! 

[BobCW]

4 hours ago, B00kem22 said:

My brother does the same for NE Nat guard.

It’s a good Aircraft and Mission!

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

If Black Hawk drivers are like that you're certainly welcome here! 

Well thank you. For most of us, especially Active Duty Pilots, interacting with GA is a total rarity.

[Will.iam]

Realize that while taking off fully fueled is nice but the bladders of the young ones will rarely exceed 4 hours flying time and 2 to 3 hours is a good break. Besides it allows you to see more airports /places. You already alluded to extended tanks would be not of much value. I would say the same for topping off the tanks. We use ours to see family that 1 to 2 hours away so 30 to 40 gallons is the norm as getting fuel at the destination usually covers parking fees so don’t want to tanker extra. 

[Nokomis449]

Speaking of Blackhawks... A local company, Ace Aeronautics (aceaero.com) modifies Blackhawks and other rotary/fixed wing aircraft and have an STC to install G5000H panels in UH-60/S-70's.  Mostly ex-military guys, they have two of the prettiest Blackhawk paint jobs I've seen on their two in-house UH-60's.  They are also a Part 145 operation and recently did a pitot/static/transponder check for me on my Mooney.  They have a paint shop and all, and could well be my new go-to shop for maintenance.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard BOOkem...

-a-

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

You should be able to get your SEL Instrument rating with no more than an hour or two of instruction before a checkride.  The only helicopter vs. fixed-wing instrument flying differences that immediately occur to me are, Torque is no longer one of the "T"s and you no longer get to divide anything by two.

BTW, real helicopters have skids.

[RobertGary1]

Don’t forget to factor in costs for prepurchase and travel. 
I have the prop AD. It’s not too bad. I pay $130 very 100 hours and it takes about 20 minutes. 

[J0nathan225]

9 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

You should be able to get your SEL Instrument rating with no more than an hour or two of instruction before a checkride.  The only helicopter vs. fixed-wing instrument flying differences that immediately occur to me are, Torque is no longer one of the "T"s and you no longer get to divide anything by two.

BTW, real helicopters have skids.

Real OLD helicopters have skids   

[Hank]

10 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

BTW, real helicopters have skids.

But do they retract???  

[tmo]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

But do they retract???  

Even if one lands "skids up" there is no prop strike, so bonus...

[Hank]

4 hours ago, tmo said:

Even if one lands "skids up" there is no prop strike, so bonus...

I was thinking about the drag they make hanging out in the air . . . .

[tmo]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

I was thinking about the drag they make hanging out in the air . . . .

It's probably less than the other fun stuff hanging off to the side...

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

But do they retract???  

Only when you land too hard.