BobCW

@hammdo The owner before me did it so I'm unsure. I can take some pictures when I fly it next.

I see your point! My typical flights are 1-3 hours, but occasionally I do trips 3+ hour legs. I would love to be able to sit there and twiddle my thumbs, instead I pitch the yoke between my index finger & thumb, place my arm on the elbow rest, and make minor adjustments to pitch and roll. It gets old, bIt it’s just old school piloting! An AP certainly would make the long XC’s more convenient, but for the amount of times I fly >2 hours legs (I do a lot of same day round trips that are 3.5 total), it’s not worth the investment/downtime. If I had a partner, even at a 1/4 share, and was keeping the plane long term, I would do it.

Thanks! It is pretty turn key...It took quite a bit of work by Don Maxwell (see the receipt in my Drive) and post maintenance flying/troubleshooting by me to get it mechanically to where it is aesthetically. I'm not sure where you are in your aviation or ownership journey, but something I learned from this community is that when you buy your Mooney, try to get AS MUCH of your prioritized wishlist checked off as possible. Even if you're an A&P, it gets really expensive really quickly. If you can keep your costs down by doing some of your own work, you have to consider your family/job/other obligations as well. Can you really afford to spend X numbers of hours at the airport every week. Some guys have flexible jobs and limited family obligations and they can do it...I am not one of those guys. As weekend warrior I couldn't take on upgrade projects myself or I would never have gotten to fly time wise (I also don't have tons of AMU's laying around to spend). My advise it to stretch your budget and get all you can get. Above all, the most important thing is buying a plane that has been flown frequently and recently! You greatly de-risk the likelihood of having catastrophic first year problems or being stuck with a large first year annual bill. That's why Jimmy's GMax Valuation guide puts a dollar figure to a recent Don Maxwell Annual. If you do stretch your budget you still need to account for State Taxes (if applicable) and first year insurance (usually paid in full, but @Parker_Woodruff has a partner that finances it for a low fee). If I was keeping the plane for the following amounts of time listed below I would invest in these 3 items: 3-5 Years: Dual G5's (or GI275's...Dealers choice). Having an HSI would be helpful. Currently I have to incorporate the GTN750 in my "scan" to get Desired/Actual Track information. DG's are just not very good for flying straight lines when I get cleared direct (happens 90% of the time) and I'm not on vectors. It also would be nice to reference the course deviation bar/glide slope on the HSI rather than having to also build in the GI106B in my approach scan. 7-12 Years: Paint...I'm huge on aesthetics (can't you tell) and fresh paint would really make this plane stand out on the ramp and give you that $200K feeling in the low $100K's range. 12-20 Years: AP...I know everyone has their own opinion on AP's, but here's mine. Sure I want one, but I don't need one. After flying actual hard IMC many times with my wife and two daughters (distracting 4yo & 1yo) on board, I can say with confidence that you don't need an AP. They absolutely make it easier and reduce workload. Depending on your proficiency, I would agree that they make the approach phase (IAF>Breaking Out) safer or at least make you feel that way because your not trying to watch the plate on foreflight, scan the instruments, get on speed, get on descent, drop the gear, etc all by yourself. But if you can do all that then you'll build a lot of confidence in your ability to fly the airplane when the system doesn't work, when it tries to do something funky, or if you make a bad decsision and go VMC>IMC. I can tell you that with Mooney's in general and the way Don has this Airplane rigged, it is super stable. My skills and comfort level has definitely been push in actual conditions when the girls are being restless or when a controller didn't decend me quite enough prior to the IAF, but I was always able to keep my speed above calculated DMMS and the plane within the course deviation bar...if you can't you have always ask for a PT before the approach to get better setup or GA if you get outside the course/off the GP. The primary reason I put this 3/3 on the list is that a GFC/500 installed will cost $20-30K. It you get a 1/4 share partner you could use his buy in, of say $30K, to fund the AP. As @carusoam always says...PP thoughts only! Rob

I plan to stay on MS! I'm more of a reader than a poster, but it sure has educated me and helped me diagnose problems here and there (saving me lots of dollars vs. being an uninvolved owner). If I could stay in a Mooney I certainly would! You just can't beat the efficiency of speed/cost that it offers. Surprisingly with my family (all girls other than me), I don't have a GWT issue, its a volume issue. Strollers, carseats, pack n' plays, etc. seem to be in my life to stay. My wife loves the convenience of traveling privately, but a little more space to take all our stuff when we go somewhere for a week. We have made it work on family trip by sending large items in advance my in-laws, but really it turns into the stressful logistics planning fiasco every time. Will be looking to get into a bigger 5 or 6 seat plane in the next 12-18 months. Thanks! I heard someone with ATC once that was also in the 59_ _Q Range. I got a little too excited...

Thanks Jim!

I'm very thankful for this community! About two years ago the members here helped me validate my "mission" and select the perfect plane. Due to some overseas travel and various life events that I have coming up over the next 12 months, I am not going to use the plane as much as I would like. Combine that with my family's plan to step up to a bigger plane in the future (like an A36), it makes practical and financial sense to sell my current plane and save on the fixed costs until upgrading. N5952Q: 1966 M20E Super 21 Serial Number: 838 TT: 2,921.68 SMOH: 375.61 SPOH: 375.61 Sob story aside, this plane checks all the boxes: Low-Time Engine with all the Right Upgrades, New Panel with WAAS GPS, New Attractive Interior, Appealing Paint Job, 201 Speed Mods, No Damage History, No Time in Corrosive Environments, and most importantly...it has been Recently & Frequently Flown. The low-time, recently overhauled engine features GAMI Injectors, Skytec Starter, Plane-Power alternator, Relocated Spin-On Oil Filter, and Quick Drain Oil Plug. Don Maxwell Aviation performed an Annual less than 16 months ago. The panel features the Garmin GTN 750 WAAS Nav-Com, Garmin GI 106B VOR/LOC, Garmin GTX-345R ADS-B In/Out Transponder, GMA 340 Audio Panel, and JPI 830 Engine Monitor. Subscription-free ADS-B weather, advisories, and traffic through the GTX-345R/GTN-750 Setup. Even pushes right to your iPad through the 750 Bluetooth on the Yoke Ram Mount. JPI EDM 830 Engine Monitor displays the Engine Parameters, CHTs, EGTs, and Fuel Flow. I can't tell you how 1) comforting and 2) helpful in troubleshooting this system has been for me over the last two years. The interior was completely redone in 2017 with new leather and plastics. The Airframe itself has low total time and features Speed Modifications (One-Piece Windshield and 201 Style Engine Cowling) that allow regular cruise speeds between 145-155 KTAS at 8.0-11.5gph depending on your LOP/ROP Setup, Winds, and Altitude. I usually cruise 5,000-6,500ft (my kid's comfortable ear limit) at 24 Squared and get 8.3PGH LOP and 11.2GPH ROP. Wheelen LED Wing-Tip Strobes and LED Landing Light add to the exterior appearance. The paint job is appealing and the plane does truly impress with that "10-foot-shine," but it does has several small cosmetic blemishes that are noticed up close. Photos, Logbooks (will upload soon), Oil Sample Reports, Savvy Aviation Reports, Aerospace 337/Title Report, and much more is available inside this Google Drive folder for your due diligence. Also, please feel free to review all my flight history using the Savvy Analysis Tool here. If you would like to search the Aircraft’s Tail Number Registration and Damage History use this free tool. I'm listing it at $110,000 (both Jimmy's GMax Valuation Guide and VRef exceed this total), but I'm willing lower it for a MSer if we can avoid some of the formalities and save myself all the hassle. Don did my Prebuy in 2021 and subsequently rolled that into an annual where I spent $25,500 ($13,000 to Jewell Aviation) to get this plane mechanically where it was aesteically. Since then, I've flown it over 120 Tach Hours and worked out all the gremlins. All the JPI Data is great, Oil Consumption is 1 Quart per 7-8 flight hours, I have rarely ever let CHT get above 400 (spread is low to high 300's), Savvy FEVA/Report Card/Trend Analysis are solid, and oil analysis looks fine. Call or Text 270-881-6396. Airplane is located in Springfield/Clarksville, TN at M91. I'm willing to fly it to you if your within a certain radius (300-500NM).

@tmo all it should take is a Prior Permission Request (PPR) with our Base Ops. I am actual working this weekend and can go over there and check. I've been flying twice here at ETIC when we had Civilian Fixed Wing Aircraft come in and land. One guy conducted Night Pattern work (I know because they wouldn't allow mixed NVG and unaided in the pattern).

Congratulations! Come find me in Grafenwöhr and let's go fly!

@Will.iam did you make your own fuel sticks? I looked them up. You are right, they are beautiful! @AH-1 Cobra Pilot am I'm sad they retire the TH-67 just a few days ago. I loved doing Run-on Skid Landings. I will say, wheels and struts are much better for slopes and uneven terrain. Skids are cool though, no doubt...

It’s a good Aircraft and Mission! Well thank you. For most of us, especially Active Duty Pilots, interacting with GA is a total rarity.

@Shiny moose thanks for the excellent and comprehensive advice!

Wow that personal example make it’s crystal clear! Thanks for sharing. Planning to use an escrow to protect the purchase process for me. Also thanks to @FJC for the direct message discussion on escrow! I have removed the question from my original post and made it a solid part of purchase plan (bullet list).

@201Steve another recommendation to flex the budget. Hmmm...this is a tough one! @MikeOHI really do need the 1000lbs Gross I believe. Also thanks for the other insightful advice. I'm going to try and find something that has as many of the goodies in the dash as possible!

@Parker_Woodruff I was just having this discussion with someone else. In 2031, I would much rather have purchased the 1975 than the 1965. Also expect me to head your way for an insurance quote sometime this year!

I'm all about expanding the search. Just subscribed to an automated Barnstormers alert (thanks for the tip), I am monitoring the listing board here on MS, and I joined a few Facebook groups.

@jetdriven like you and @irishpilot point out, I do need to be very careful with this purchase. It would be terrible to end up with a lot of squawks in the first year or two. Sometimes you just can't prevent bad luck, but if you buy an airplane that with only a couple hundred hours over the last decade, don't be surprised. I think based off what I'm hearing here, a newer (70's) long-body F may be ideal. I just don't see myself stretching my budget much further. I believe I saw the older M20E...was it Red/White?

Thanks! I am definitely planning to keep this plane for at least 10 years. I am really going to look hard into the MX side of the aircraft I buy and am hoping to find a partner to bring in later!

@J0nathan225 great information! I am going to send you a direct message. Did you have a hangar across from Mike Lopez? I did my PPL training with him and took out the Warrior with Pete Schultz a few times after I finished. @Browncbr1 thanks for the reminder on dual training. I honestly like the manual gear more, but not enough to turn down a viable electric gear aircraft. @toto fortunately I will be in a hold status for a few months waiting to start the Chinook transition course!

@tmo added to the list (original post edited)! Thanks!

@merlin I'm in the market for an F. I am looking for an aircraft that meets my requirements (check out my recent thread where I lay it all out). If you think your aircraft meets those requirements, then let's talk. I am not a tire kicker, so this could be an easy option for you if it meets my mission, budget, and criteria. Message me if you think it does!

@jetdriven I'm hoping too. Unfortunately I believe that I will be somewhat limited by the aircraft's location. Planning to utilize the closest Authorized MSC.

@ArtVandelay solid advice! I am hoping to stay under $70,000 to leave room for my first annual and upgrades. That is exactly what I’ve seen. While I’m not committing 100% that I will keep my first plane forever, I don’t see my mission (or financial situation) changing drastically enough to warrant any change in the next 10-15 years.

@jaylw314 thanks for sharing! What exactly are the benefits of using an escrow service (better yet, what is the most reason for using it)? Just to show the buyer you are not a tire kicker or hold the plane while you perform the PPI? Exactly! Given the inventory that I’ve seen (and my price range) I will not be able to get everything that I want. Ideally I would like to find something that meets the primary criteria and the interior/exterior secondary criteria in addition to having something that I could reuse in a panel upgrade. I intend to complete a PPI no matter when the previous annual was completed. I have seen this topic heavily debated on here, but I look at it from a financial risk mitigation standpoint to protect my investment from a catastrophic loss. Depending on how close the next annual is to due at the time of the PPI, I will probably elect to roll the PPI into an annual for some concurrent cost savings.

@carusoam It sure is! I’m currently a UH-60 Black Hawk MEDEVAC driver. Unfortunately, I don’t get to fly it daily. I will be transitioning to the mighty Chinook later this year though! Also I’m realizing that my post is probably WAY to long, so again I apologize. I should have broken it up. Partial answers/opinions are perfectly fine!

Hello Mooney Space Community! Apologies in advance, this is a lengthy post and I will be asking for your help. I am a long-time reader, but now since I am in the market to purchase, I decided it was time to create an account. I also went ahead and donated to the site to hopefully show my thankfulness for any advice that I may receive. From what I’ve seen this is an extremely passionate and helpful community. Ok, so on to brass tacks! Based on my research and requirements I am considering 1965-1980 M20E/F/J Models. I would also consider a 1965 or newer C Model with 201 upgrades, but I am preferential to the 200hp models. The Budget we have is $90,000 (or 90 Aviation Monetary Units as I've heard it called here). Ideally, I would like to purchase an aircraft priced <70AMU so that I can enhance one of the secondary criteria listed below. My Background: I am a U.S. Army Helicopter Pilot with 560.2 Hours TT (48.7 in Airplanes). I currently hold my Commercial Helicopter, Instrument Helicopter, Private ASEL, and Sport ASES ratings. I plan to use the aircraft to complete my Airplane Instrument. While I have wanted an Airplane ever since finishing flight school, I have not been in a position for ownership until now. I have chosen to remain on Active Duty for at least the next five years, so my financial situation is very stable. I will also be stationed in the same location over that period, which is what really got the wife on board! My Mission: Fast, fuel efficient, reliable, IFR cross country aircraft to move my family on 1.5-3 hour flights throughout the Southeastern United States. Mooney delivers on everything I need, which is why I have chosen to allocate my AMU’s towards an M20! Also, I want to mention that Useful Load is of particular interest to me since I will be flying my wife and small children around (with luggage). I know (or at least I’ve read) that Mooney’s can vary greatly on this figure. Extended fuel tanks are not of additional value to me based on my current mission. How Can You Help? Since I am very new to both GA and Aircraft Ownership, I need your expertise in two distinct categories: Primary and Secondary Airplane Purchase Consideration Criteria Airplane Review/Purchase Plan The questions I am trying to answer are what have I missed? What am I not considering? What should I remove? I am flexible on everything listed below. An aircraft that has 1,200 Hours SMOH but has flown 200 hours in the last year would be preferable to one with 900 Hours that flew 20. Primary Criteria: <1,000 Hours SMOH Recent Flight Time Not Excessively High Airframe TT ( >6,500 Hours) No Corrosion Old, Limited, or No Damage History – Gear up Landing in the 80’s that has had a MOH since doesn’t concern me, but recent unproven major damage does. IFR Certified Tank Bladder or Sealed Tanks No AD Prop *WAAS GPS (See Secondary Criteria Avionics/Panel) *Autopilot (See Secondary Criteria Avionics/Panel) Secondary Criteria: As I mentioned in the beginning, from my research I can only get two of the three secondary criteria, while remaining under budget. I also want to clarify that I recognize that, with the except of paint condition, these are not very important items. But since these are my AMU’s, I am going to be picky and purchase an aircraft that not only meets the mission, but looks good doing it! Also my parents and in-laws completely and solely judge the “safeness” of the aircraft off the look. Remember that I am only looking to “check” two of these three boxes. The intended purchase price of 55AMU-70AMU would leave 20-35AMU in the budget to address the remaining area. Exterior – I am a plain guy and I want a no-frills paint job. Green, Baby Blue, Brown, Orange are no-go’s at this station. A simple white base with Red, Blue, or Grey accents would be just fine. The paint doesn’t need to be that new, just in relatively good condition 7/10. I probably wouldn’t do any speed mods myself, but it’s a nice bonus if they are on the aircraft. Interior – Simplicity is once again the key here. I am looking for an interior that has at least been redone in the 2000’s. Tan, Grey, or Black scheme would be fine. I would like the wall, headliner, carpet to match the seats. Plus one for Mooney Eagle stitching on the headrests. There are plenty of examples from Aero Comfort or Airtex that would fit the bill and I would likely use one of those two providers if this was an area that needed attention. Avionics/Panel – First off, I’m not looking to get my dream panel. I am simply looking to build upon what’s already in the dash. Let me start by telling you what I would like to do in a perfect world. Custom Fabricated Flat Panel that features the removal of the vacuum system and minimizes as many gauges as possible. Install a G3X Touch (VSI/HSI and Moving Map), G5 VSI, Garmin GPS (GNC 355/GNX375/GTN600Xi), Flight Stream 510, GFC 500 Autopilot, and Engine Monitor. With that setup I would be able to push flight plans from my iPad to the GPS and fly coupled routes/approaches. Later I would need to add a Garmin transponder and second Garmin comm so that everything could be controlled through the G3X Touch. If the aircraft already has a solid functioning AP that could interface with Garmin, then I could skip the GFC500 since the remaining Garmin avionics alone are already in the ballpark of 20-25AMU. As I mentioned before, I am not looking for that wishlist, just an aircraft with something that I can reuse. An AP, JPI, GPS, or G5 would go a long way towards my panel upgrade. I’ve seen a couple aircraft with a host of previous generation avionics. While those would be great in the present, the cost of those aircraft leave me with little (or nothing) left in the budget. I believe I would rather get a standard six pack aircraft and build from there, rather than paying for something that isn’t forward compatible like the current generation. Here are a Few Airplanes Currently on the Market that Seem Worthy of Consideration: 1967 M20F - This is GMax Aircraft by Jimmy (which from what I've read is a really good thing). It has some speed mods and meets the primary criteria. I'm not crazy about the paint which is in average or less than average condition. The interior styling is great, but the front seats would have to be addressed. The panel has some nice items, including a GNX375 to build a new panel off of. 1965 M20E - The oldest plane on the list but great fresh 2020 paint and my favorite interior on the list. It has low time since overhaul and relatively low time on the airframe (this is probably the most troublesome thing). Brittain PC 2 Axis (Maxwell 2011) and an MVP-50 Engine Monitor. No damage history. 1967 M20F - Fresh 2019 paint. Interior would need to be redone. Low time engine and airframe (like the #2 short-body). It has a Garmin 480 WAAS, which is nice. I suppose I could rethink the avionics upgrade and maybe included the 480 or sell it. 1970 M20F - In Contract 2/15/21 1977 M20J - In Canada and outside of my SMOH criteria, but it is the newest plane I've seen in my price range (and a J Model too). It has a S-TEC 50 and older Digital Engine Monitoring Gauge. Paint is great and interior meets the bill. 1976 M20F - Doesn't meet any of the three secondary criteria. Paint is "Challenged" and interior (although within the last 10 years) is not my preference at all. The nice thing is that it's another GMax and it meets the important primary criteria (and it has speed mods). #1-4 are clearly ahead of #5/6, with #1/2 and #3/4 hard to separate respectively. Airplane Review/Purchase Plan: Finalize my Pre-Approval for Financing with AOPA. Review Airplane Candidate History Here. Review Flight Recency from Flight Aware. Check VREF Value through AOPA. Inquire with Seller. Obtain Seller Approval for PPI at Closest MSC pending Logbook Review – I am expecting to spend $1,500-$2,000 on the PPI. Obtain Digital Aircraft, Engine, and Prop Logs from Seller. Send Logs (+$250) to Laura at Southwest Texas Aviation – I am assuming they would pull all the applicable Ads from Here. Use Aero-Space Reports for Official Title/History Reports – Not sure is this discounted $95 package offered through AOPA is needed? Schedule PPI at closest MSC (with recent experience) pending successful Log/Title/History Review. Draft PPI Checklist for MSC with any concern areas taken from the SWTA Report. AOPA Legal for Purchase Agreement AOPA Legal for LLC Establishment – Personal preference here, but let me any downsides or bad experiences with having an business “own” the aircraft. Aero-Space Escrow Service though AOPA. Depending on when the next Annual/100 Hour is due, potentially proceed with one or both of those inspections. Obtain Insurance – Considering all options, but I’ve read good things about Parker from Airspeed Insurance. Aircraft Registration. As you can tell from list above, I am leaning relatively hard on AOPA. I am not sure what everyone’s feelings are about their services, but for an inexperienced owner like myself, their consolidation of resources adds value, even if the individual services aren’t the market-best. I am, however, completely open to using other vendors. If you made it this far, thank you! I look forward to your feedback and hope that I’ve demonstrated through my research how serious I am about becoming part of this community