Concorde batteries: No longer recommended?

[RobertGary1]

23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Many that claim extraordinary life from their battery may have never had it capacity tested.

Also anyone who keeps it on a charger may never know bad. Even a pretty bad battery can start an engine hot off the charger. But can it hold charge overnight?

[StevenL757]

4 minutes ago, EricJ said:

How long does it take to do the cap check on the Concorde?

Depends on the capacity tester, but the tests I’ve performed at the shop under my IA’s supervision have averaged 1.5 hours.

[PT20J]

18 minutes ago, EricJ said:

How long does it take to do the cap check on the Concorde?

 

According to the Concorde manual, the actual test takes 51 minutes. But, you may have to charge it before the test to make sure it's fully charged, and then charge it again after the test runs it down so that it's airworthy.

Edit: Note that per the Concorde procedure (below), the battery should receive a conditioning charge if it fails the capacity test and this can be repeated twice before the battery should be rejected.

[larryb]

I’ve been meaning to build myself a tester. Just haven’t gotten to it yet. A constant current regulator into a fixed load, heat sink and fan and monitored by a microcontroller. I agree that many old Concorde batteries would start a plane fine while simultaneously failing the cap test.

[Sabremech]

19 minutes ago, EricJ said:

How long does it take to do the cap check on the Concorde?

 

Cap check is under an hour. The typical charge after the cap check is usually about 4 plus hours. 
The Concorde tester I use is a very nice piece of equipment and simple to use.

David

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

Cap check is under an hour. The typical charge after the cap check is usually about 4 plus hours. 
The Concorde tester I use is a very nice piece of equipment and simple to use.

David

That's been my understanding, that it takes long enough that the cost to get it done by an FBO with the tester is a fair distance along the way to just getting another battery, so most don't bother and just wait until the battery performance begins to decay.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

If that’s the case, then I could do with the reasoning behind...

• Why the two TSOs exist

Some manufacturers may use the TSOs to specify batteries that are compliant for an appropriate application.   It does not appear that Mooney is one of them.

Quote

• Why you think the second paragraph applies to our aircraft and not the first

Because it does not appear that the relevant TSO is used to specify batteries for Mooney aircraft, or that the batteries used in many Mooney aircraft are covered by the TSO.   Concorde indicates which batteries are covered by the relevant TSO here:

https://concordebattery.com/otherpdf/5-0403.pdf

and the RG-35A or RG-35AXC, edit: or RG24-11M, do not appear.   The RG24-15 and RG24-11M, do, though, so if you have one of those then you could apply Par A, but that just says that the installation must be appropriate for the TSO.   I don't see a requirement for annual testing or any testing subsequent to installation according to the stated Airworthiness Limitations.

Quote

• What the purpose of the ICA is in the first place

Unfortunately, I don’t have any other documentation aside from what I’ve provided, but am looking forward to learning something new.

There does not appear to be an ICA for the relevant batteries.   The ICA was superceded by Concorde's document 5-0171, which is a CMM, not an ICA.   Within the CMM there is no ICA statement, but there is a statement of Airworthiness Limitations.   If the TSO does not apply, which it does not appear to for the case of Mooney aircraft, particularly for RG-35A or RG-35AXC batteries, then paragraph B applies, for which there are no airworthiness limitations for the battery.  In any case, I don't see a requirement for annual testing whether the TSO applies or not.

None of that says testing is a bad idea or shouldn't be done if one is concerned, but it does not appear to be a requirement at any time.

An easy test to perform, especially if you have a connector for the Battery Minder, is the Open Circuit Voltage test, which can be done with a DMM easily by checking the voltage across the terminals of the aircraft side of the Battery Minder connector with the master switch off.   If the OCV is 12.5V or better, it is an indication that the battery is reasonably healthy.   That's not a substitute for a capacity check, but if the OCV starts to drop below that it may be an indication that the battery may need some attention.   The tester units can sometimes rehabilitate a tired battery, but my understanding is that it's not inexpensive due to the time involved and the money might be better spent toward a new battery.

EDIT:   Correction, the only Mooney battery that appears to be subject to the TSO is the RG24-15.  The RG24-11M is not on the list of TSO'd batteries.

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by EricJ

[Sabremech]

11 minutes ago, EricJ said:

That's been my understanding, that it takes long enough that the cost to get it done by an FBO with the tester is a fair distance along the way to just getting another battery, so most don't bother and just wait until the battery performance begins to decay.

The tester is automatic and shuts off with either a pass or fail. There’s no need to stand there and monitor it either on the discharge or charge so the cost would more likely be a flat rate fee versus an hourly rate. 
With my experience and 12 year life of the Concorde, it was worth testing yearly. 

[carusoam]

So...

Looks like the title of Toto’s thread... is dead... 

Concorde Batteries are still recommended...

By some pretty well respected pilots, mechanics, and plane owners...

The POH for the M20R lists the Concorde as primary and the Gill as an alternate...

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Looks like the title of Toto’s thread... is dead

Ha. Yeah - except, of course, by my shop

[carusoam]

See if we can find that lonely recommendation for Gill batteries...

There is a thread around here for that...

Gill re-designed their battery a couple of years ago...

Gill is part of one of my favorite aviation suppliers... CMI...

 

Gone thread hunting...

-a-

 

@tls pilot wrote a nice pirep many years ago...  wonder if he has a follow up report for these things...

 

[toto]

7 minutes ago, carusoam said:

See if we can find that lonely recommendation for Gill batteries...

There is a thread around here for that...

Gill re-designed their battery a couple of years ago...

Gill is part of one of my favorite aviation suppliers... CMI...

 

Gone thread hunting...

-a-

I used Gill batteries for two decades before trying Concorde, and really I became convinced of the Concorde superiority by the good folks on MS. But three new Concorde batteries in less than one average battery lifespan definitely has me scratching my head.

It certainly could be a problem with the testing approach or whatever, but the same shop does the other plane with a Gill battery, and I honestly can't recall it ever being flagged at annual. 

[Andy95W]

Just now, toto said:

I used Gill batteries for two decades before trying Concorde, and really I became convinced of the Concorde superiority by the good folks on MS. But three new Concorde batteries in less than one average battery lifespan definitely has me scratching my head.

It certainly could be a problem with the testing approach or whatever, but the same shop does the other plane with a Gill battery, and I honestly can't recall it ever being flagged at annual. 

Concorde AGM batteries are very sensitive to voltage, mainly high voltage, which can ruin them quick.  Flooded (wet cell) batteries are much more tolerant of high voltage, all that really happens is the water boils out faster than it should- but that gets checked and added back every annual.

There is a chart in the Concorde manual of recommended charging voltage based on temperature.  Basically, if your voltage regulator is set for 13.9-14.1 volts, it should be happy and last a long time.  If that’s not the culprit for you, I’m at a loss.

[carusoam]

The coolest thing about the JPI.... they all record the voltage they are seeing in their supply line...

Download it’s history, and see if it is getting more voltage than it wants..

or less voltage than is required to fill up.

If the battery doesn’t get fully charged... passing the capacity test gets a bit harder...

Best regards,

-a-

[tls pilot]

a quick followup to @carusoam

Yes I can report my Gill Sealed LT batteries that I installed in June of 2015 continue to perform extremely well! The capacity test passes each time on both batteries. 

I am very pleased with the Gill Sealed LT batteries and have done yearly honest reports. 

[spistora]

I am planning to replace my wet Gill next annual as PM.  It was installed in 2016.  I planned to get a Concorde and will likely still get one. I would be interested to hear more about the sealed Gill if anyone else has experience with it. 

[carusoam]

Great to have the follow-up from TLS Pilot!

 

When it comes to sealed batteries...

Give a quick check of their specs...

Make sure there aren’t any altitude limitations with that...

Back in the day, there were...

I was tossing out a regular Gill and Cris was tossing a sealed one at the same time...

I had ordered a pair of regular Gills, one for him, one for me... we saved some dough on the shipping... 

The sealed Gills had a yellowish beige top compared to the all red case... as an identifier...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-