Mooney 301 Question

[FlyWalt]

Happy Thanksgiving to all,

I’ve been doing some reading on this aircraft that was flown but never developed and I have to wonder what they were thinking when they killed the project. Evidently, the new owners in 1984 felt it would not compete in the market place at the time.

Also, I read that the one airframe was donated to an A&P school. Does anyone have an idea of if this aircraft still exist?

[aviatoreb]

It’s too bad.  They were at the right place at the right time with the right product / but underfunded and maybe without enough will to see it through.

[cctsurf]

I'm sure you know that it was the foundation for the TBM series?

[aviatoreb]

17 minutes ago, cctsurf said:

I'm sure you know that it was the foundation for the TBM series?

Exactly.  The M in TBM is for the brief Mooney marriage in sharing their project  And Mooney corporation eventually got zero out of what became a very successful product.

[carusoam]

The only thing missing was the suitable power source...

The prior experience was the M22 Mustang... six seats, pressure, big engine...

The TBM is where it went...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

The wing and control surfaces from the Mooney 301 are the design basis for the TBMs. 
 

It would still be a good plane -  between a cirrus and a SETP.  Cirrus has bet that there is nothing between cirrus and their SE jet, but there’s a market there. Piston or diesel, pressurized, trailing link gear and a parachute seem to make sense now a days.  It would be a great competitor to the Malibu /Mirage and ripe for a turbine conversion.  If a cheaper SETP existed at the top end of cirrus prices and the bottom end of TBM prices, there’s a market there.  

[aviatoreb]

45 minutes ago, bradp said:

The wing and control surfaces from the Mooney 301 are the design basis for the TBMs. 
 

It would still be a good plane -  between a cirrus and a SETP.  Cirrus has bet that there is nothing between cirrus and their SE jet, but there’s a market there. Piston or diesel, pressurized, trailing link gear and a parachute seem to make sense now a days.  It would be a great competitor to the Malibu /Mirage and ripe for a turbine conversion.  If a cheaper SETP existed at the top end of cirrus prices and the bottom end of TBM prices, there’s a market there.  

I think Diamond is moving into that niche with their DA50.  But their DA62 in some sense also fills that niche.

[FlyWalt]

3 hours ago, bradp said:Cirrus has bet that there is nothing between cirrus and their SE jet, but there’s a market there. Piston or diesel, pressurized, trailing link gear and a parachute seem to make sense now a days.  It would be a great competitor to the Malibu /Mirage and ripe for a turbine conversion.  If a cheaper SETP existed at the top end of cirrus prices and the bottom end of TBM prices, there’s a market there.  

I wonder if the new owners could be convinced to dust off the 301 project and consider developing it. Heck, I would consider setting up a Mooney dealership to sell it if they did.

The bottom line though is that I have out grown our M20 and need more seats. The six seat Mooney could be a tremendous competitor to the G36 Bonanza.

[Mark89114]

Isnt cessna coming out with a SETP besides the caravan?

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 minutes ago, Mark89114 said:

Isnt cessna coming out with a SETP besides the caravan?

Yes.
The Denali has been in the works for a few years.  Looks good in mock-up.  The engine promises 20% improvement in fuel burn compared to PT6A series.  Closer in size to a Pilatus   PC12.  

Denali

[carusoam]

10 hours ago, FlyWalt said:

I wonder if the new owners could be convinced to dust off the 301 project and consider developing it. Heck, I would consider setting up a Mooney dealership to sell it if they did.

The bottom line though is that I have out grown our M20 and need more seats. The six seat Mooney could be a tremendous competitor to the G36 Bonanza.

I’m sure @Jonny is pretty busy with the current situation... but, tomorrow is a new day... anything could happen...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Raymond J1]

Seen from here (so not necessarily in the right place), I have the impression that Mooney's projects suffer the failure of the engines chosen by him. For example, in Europe there was a place for the new M10 with Rotax turbo injection engine, here one wonders why Mooney did not continue that.

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Raymond J said:

Seen from here (so not necessarily in the right place), I have the impression that Mooney's projects suffer the failure of the engines chosen by him. For example, in Europe there was a place for the new M10 with Rotax turbo injection engine, here one wonders why Mooney did not continue that.

My impression is also in the USA the M10 with a rotax 915 would have been terrific.  And in principle still could be.

[Raymond J1]

In France , with this engine Rotax, the compagny "Issoire Aviation" as certified the "APM 41 Simba", an single engine, four seats. I think wich the Mooney M10 (T or P) was good centered for this market. The APM 41 replace the APM 40 motorised with Continental engine 125 HP out of production today.https://www.aerovfr.com/2019/07/lapm-41-simba-certifie-easa-avec-son-rotax-915is/

[carusoam]

Livened up JR’s link from above...

-a-

https://www.aerovfr.com/2019/07/lapm-41-simba-certifie-easa-avec-son-rotax-915is/

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Livened up JR’s link from above...

-a-

https://www.aerovfr.com/2019/07/lapm-41-simba-certifie-easa-avec-son-rotax-915is/

That Rotax 915is strikes me as a really superb aircraft engine and everything we are discussing here as a more modern designed, and built engine, with higher tolerances, etc.  And known as a bullet proof reliable, economical package.  I am surprised more main stream aircraft builders don't pick up on it.  For example the Diamond Da42 uses a pair of 140hp diesel engines - I think that airplane would be superb on a pair of rotax as an alternative.

Its too small for our Mooneys.  I wonder why rotax doesn't offer a 6 cylinder version of otherwise the same engine.  That would be a great 210hp engine.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

On 11/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, aviatoreb said:

My impression is also in the USA the M10 with a rotax 915 would have been terrific.  And in principle still could be.

What went through the grapevine was that it definitly was not engine choice which killed the M10 but massive problems with the airframe itself.

I also think what Mooney most desparately needs is a new entry level airframe which opens up the first owner's market to them and which basically comes with the original concept of lots of bang=speed for relatively few money. In other words, a replacement for the whole series from the C upwards to the J. There is nothing left in that segment of a 180-200 hp 160 kt airframe.

 

As for the 301, I doubt that Mooney could resurrect it even if they so wished, as I suppose it went into the TBM, which means the whole thing is owned by Daher-Socata now.

[tmo]

I'm pretty sure Rotax had an attempt to make a bigger engine, but decided to get more out of the 912 (which the 914 and 915 engines basically are).

There are many other uncertified engines around, for example UL Power - some of their engines actually do exist, and the E-AB people in Europe seem to like them.

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, tmo said:

I'm pretty sure Rotax had an attempt to make a bigger engine, but decided to get more out of the 912 (which the 914 and 915 engines basically are).

There are many other uncertified engines around, for example UL Power - some of their engines actually do exist, and the E-AB people in Europe seem to like them.

It's hard to imagine what would stop them mechanically but perhaps their market analysis and production and economic factors are what stop them.

[David Lloyd]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:36 PM, FlyWalt said:

Happy Thanksgiving to all,

I’ve been doing some reading on this aircraft that was flown but never developed and I have to wonder what they were thinking when they killed the project. Evidently, the new owners in 1984 felt it would not compete in the market place at the time.

Also, I read that the one airframe was donated to an A&P school. Does anyone have an idea of if this aircraft still exist?

I remember reading, maybe in Flying (before the internet, so you know it is true), the reason the 301 was never developed was the company already had 200 knot airplanes, 220 or thereabouts was not really going to make a difference.  They needed something closer to 300 knots and the 301 no matter how much money was spent, was not going to do it.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

I remember reading, maybe in Flying (before the internet, so you know it is true), the reason the 301 was never developed was the company already had 200 knot airplanes, 220 or thereabouts was not really going to make a difference.  They needed something closer to 300 knots and the 301 no matter how much money was spent, was not going to do it.

I wonder if they could have done something useful with the IO720 - or if they could have made a turbo normalized version of that. As a pet project I read somewhere that someone turbo normalized a Comanche 400 into a 265TAS airplane.

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, David Lloyd said:

They needed something closer to 300 knots and the 301 no matter how much money was spent, was not going to do it.

Probably that is why Socata started over and created the 300 knot TBM700 as a clean-sheet design.  

[Mcstealth]

On 11/27/2020 at 8:16 PM, carusoam said:

 

The prior experience was the M22 Mustang... six seats.......

Five seats I think? Going to go look now.

[Seth]

A new pressurized fuselage (4 adults 1 kid like a SR22) with the Mooney M22 Flaps, M22 Gear, M20 Wing and a turbo diesel powerplant - that would be a new segment of aircraft. Doesn't have to be blistering fast, but if its pressurized it will take advantage of the turbo diesel aspect, the Mooney wing flies fine in the teens, it would cost less than a Meridian, as it's a 4/5 place, and less than a TBM.

One can dream. The parts are there except for a newly designed fuselage which could be the missing link with the other parts that are good.

 

-Seth 

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, Seth said:

A new pressurized fuselage (4 adults 1 kid like a SR22) with the Mooney M22 Flaps, M22 Gear, M20 Wing and a turbo diesel powerplant - that would be a new segment of aircraft. Doesn't have to be blistering fast, but if its pressurized it will take advantage of the turbo diesel aspect, the Mooney wing flies fine in the teens, it would cost less than a Meridian, as it's a 4/5 place, and less than a TBM.

One can dream. The parts are there except for a newly designed fuselage which could be the missing link with the other parts that are good.

 

-Seth 

The Diamond DA50 is almost what you are describing https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/private-pilots/aircraft/da50/tech-specs/ except it is not pressurized.

The Diamond DA62 is also very similar other than it has a second engine but with diesels it is so efficient it easily competes for fuel economy to our big bore continentals.

I wonder why Diamond doesn't move to pressurized either of these.  Especially the DA62 segment I bet they would sell well.  That said, as a former Diamond DA40 owner, I can say that this company is absolutely a pain in the neck to deal with as an owner needing rudimentary support.  They are just awful to their owners.  Its one of the reasons I left that make over 10 years ago.  The only reason they continue to succeed is that they do for really design very very nice airplanes.

Of course as with any new airplane, these are very very expensive.  Better come to the table with >$1M for these new aircraft.