Mooney IFR or VFR?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I use whatever works for the trip, and have only requested pop-up clearances a couple of times.

That being said, I flew my Mooney for three years and 300+ hours before getting serious about IFR. That included a trip from WV to WY [1300+ nm each way] so my wife could see Yellowstone, and more trips than I can count going over the Appalachians to see family in NC and GA (summer, winter, Thanksgiving and Christmas). There were very few cancellations but several schedule adjustments, and I only diverted and landed elsewhere one time.

And just for @steingar, I was based in South Point, Ohio (KHTW, the original commercial airport for Huntington, WV), right on the bank of the Ohio River, with the same "beautiful" weather that I experienced living in metro-Columbus . . . .

But it is so very nice to get radio clearance from the nearby Class D and takeoff into the rainy gloom, then burst out after a minute or so and put on sunglasses. It's even nicer when Departure asks how thick the layer is!

Down here, though, Atlanta is a huge thorn in my side whether IFR or VFR. If IFR, I've actually been asked if I prefer HEFIN or SINCA; either one adds 20-25 minutes to my trip; when VFR, they are sometimes polite enough to ask me to "remain clear of the Bravo", otherwise it's "stay out of the Bravo"! I figure the emptiest volume inside the entire Bravo [which goes up to 12,500] is several thousand agl over the terminal, but approach is quite allergic to allowing any transient aircraft inside, and I'm not sure I could climb to 13,500 eastbound, cross the Bravo and get back under 12,500 in my C in less than the 30-minute limit. So I fly up and down the east or west side and often have to descend because they sent me around and through the arrival gate instead of straight through the empty air . . . 

It's tempting to fly across fhe bottom, turn north toward the arrivals at 9500, cancel flight following ("since you won't let me go through, guess I don't need services. Bye, ya'll!") and just listen to the chatter! But I haven't yet been that angry at Approach, in a bad enough mood and stupid all at once. But it's tempting! 

Hank Im with you.  I get super frustrated at ATC sometimes denying me access to airspace when it seems there’s plenty of room to zip through!  At least the class B you’re talking about is a known (dimensions, altitudes, etc).  My biggest complaint out west has been Portland approach. A lowly class C, with tops at 4,000’ but they frustrate the heck out of me as they control a big chunk of NW Oregon.  I often fly east/west over/near their airspace as I go into/out of khio.  Doesn’t matter, ifr or vfr, you’ll get vectors way around.  In fact several times When vfr I was sent so far north I was trying to figure out where/how I was going to get over mt Rainer when they finally let me go east.  Actually they gave me a north vector and tried to pass me to Seattle center when I said unable, you’ve sent me so far north that I can’t get safely across the cascades anymore.

That time I actually looked up the regs about controller directions when vfr.  As I had flight following, I was compelled to follow whatever direction they give me.  I actually asked atc for their phone number and called when I got home.  I tried to be nice and see what could be done because I prefer not to just cruise right over their airspace at 5,000’ with no flight following which is totally legal.  I want flight following, but every time I get it they give ridiculous vectors.  The supervisor said, oh yeah, don’t just fly right over the top, always talk to us.  When I said, yeah, that works both ways though, you’ll have to work with me too, he just insisted they were too busy to let vfr aircraft fly right over the class c.  The call ended politely but without any resolution.  I really like flight following but if they give me egregious vectors, I get angry, cancel ff, and go wherever I want, I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get a call from the faa.

Now any controllers reading this, I can easily list 10 busy class B/Cs that are awesome.  I don’t have a thing against atc.  Sometimes it’s just the culture and procedures at a particular place.  

[rbridges]

I don't file ifr for shorter trips in vmc, but I prefer ifr on longer trips because sky conditions can change. I prefer having ATC helping me out along the way. 

[carusoam]

Nothing to do with distance flown...

Everything to do with days away...

About me...

• VFR only for a decade, 1khrs... M20C.
• Got IR, then M20R...

We used the plane to allow the kids to know their grand parents... that worked pretty well...

JFK jr. did his thing... the whole family starts asking questions... (mostly the grand parents being visited)

 

So....

1) Go out on a Friday or Saturday morning when the weather is best.... ( everything is good)

2) Get caught watching the weather all the time, or mention leaving early.... (The invention of the smart phone has been great!)

3) Being late to be in the office on Monday.... X2 (her and me....)

4) Trying to fly VFR home predictably... that’s the challenge...

5) Weather forecasting has improved tremendously over the decades... 

 

Having the IR has eliminated the anxiety that the whole family seemed to experience....

Having a nice IFR capable ship also helps...

 

The odd challenge of staying current kind of requires a plan... Something to consider as you are training...

most of my flights never required flying an IFR procedure...

 

The reason the IR makes you a better pilot... it is many hours flying your plane with somebody that knows his stuff better than you... you are bound to learn something new...

It takes a ton of dough... like day care, mortgage, college, cars...  decide early on of this is right for you... the sooner you start, the sooner you will have the rating... and can be using it...

 

Talking with ATC always had some mystery behind it... with the IR, most of the mystery gets removed...
 

Getting flight following, seems to be a natural thing to do for the VFR trips... And that opens doors that are usually closed to the VFR pilot flying incognito...

Do it cause you want to...

Do it cause you can...

Do it for the freedom it adds and allows...

Do it because you will learn even more about the weather and even more about how it works...
 

The IR is like taking a college level class... a big book, lots of theory, theory that is directly connected to the lab sessions... the Lab sessions are the coolest part... actual flying with a professor... 

The better you are (Or become ) at multi-tasking... the more you can get out of the experience...

+1 the IR is not something that makes you better than the next person...  
When you hear somebody saying how great the IR is...  it can sound like they are bragging...

It really is an accomplishment... you only need to earn it once...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI....
 

Best regards,

-a-
 

 

[kortopates]

43 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Hank Im with you.  I get super frustrated at ATC sometimes denying me access to airspace when it seems there’s plenty of room to zip through!  At least the class B you’re talking about is a known (dimensions, altitudes, etc).  My biggest complaint out west has been Portland approach. A lowly class C, with tops at 4,000’ but they frustrate the heck out of me as they control a big chunk of NW Oregon.  I often fly east/west over/near their airspace as I go into/out of khio.  Doesn’t matter, ifr or vfr, you’ll get vectors way around.  In fact several times When vfr I was sent so far north I was trying to figure out where/how I was going to get over mt Rainer when they finally let me go east.  Actually they gave me a north vector and tried to pass me to Seattle center when I said unable, you’ve sent me so far north that I can’t get safely across the cascades anymore.

That time I actually looked up the regs about controller directions when vfr.  As I had flight following, I was compelled to follow whatever direction they give me.  I actually asked atc for their phone number and called when I got home.  I tried to be nice and see what could be done because I prefer not to just cruise right over their airspace at 5,000’ with no flight following which is totally legal.  I want flight following, but every time I get it they give ridiculous vectors.  The supervisor said, oh yeah, don’t just fly right over the top, always talk to us.  When I said, yeah, that works both ways though, you’ll have to work with me too, he just insisted they were too busy to let vfr aircraft fly right over the class c.  The call ended politely but without any resolution.  I really like flight following but if they give me egregious vectors, I get angry, cancel ff, and go wherever I want, I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get a call from the faa.

Now any controllers reading this, I can easily list 10 busy class B/Cs that are awesome.  I don’t have a thing against atc.  Sometimes it’s just the culture and procedures at a particular place.  

I think you're right about the culture. I've been flying long enough to see ATC cultures change. Further south where I fly under the largest TRACON in the country we had very similar issues. Many of little guys got to the point they would avoid talking to ATC. But ATC was smart enough to recognize that's not in anyone best interest and really took to heart how they could get local pilot support. This led to the TRACON appointing a senior controller to spend a portion of his time doing pilot outreach. This is when things finally got started in the right direction. As a Lead FASSTeam rep, we worked with him to understand our needs so that they would get what they needed in  much greater pilot participation. Our controller rep, who joined the FAASTeam to work with us, really came around and sold his fellow controllers, with the help of his management, that they really needed to be there for us consistently and make it easier for us to access the airspace. And to give you an idea how much things have improved we can now get a VFR Flight following clearance and code from most of our ground controllers in SOCAL before departure so that once airborne they're expecting us just like an IFR departure. Very rarely is anyone dropped now, but it can still happen, but its far easier to get a flight following on the ground before departure than try to get it in the air in the busiest sectors. Overall they have been great and we all know what to expect for common routes through the Bravo.

So I would encourage you to get involved with your local FAASTeam, if not already, and make this a priority to work with them. Hopefully you'll be well rewarded for the effort. Its going to take some time but it can really pay dividends for all with both much greater pilot participation and controllers trained to help with our VFR and IFR needs as well. 

[kortopates]

There is no right or wrong answer, when choosing to go IFR or VFR, just priorities and tradeoffs. I personally don't care about taking a few minutes to get an IFR release and very few IFR routing add much distance to my trip. But what I really value is a low stress trip through the SOCAL Bravo which is extremely busy when flying under and around the fringes. So I personally prefer IFR since it makes it far easier than VFR - most of the time. And the same hold true most of the time on long cross countries since being turbo equipped we'll fly high enough to get direct routes most anywhere once we're in Center airspace.

But here is a video on Rod Machado explaining why he prefers to fly VFR on long cross countries whenever the weather allows. He gave this talk to out San Diego pilots earlier this month.

https://cccconfer.zoom.us/rec/share/qBvW7QfIhxJicMcvCWn_I8tfoEtBWYW6Sv_WbCFFOuVK9iBowiyOLkBrDVtAq08U.uEULeRFxBChf2PzC?startTime=1601604084000

[Ned Gravel]

11 hours ago, Amelia said:

And then there are days I just have to stay home and read a book. Yeah, I could take off zero-zero, but what happens when there’s no legal alternate within 200 miles? Or the fan quits and I’m climbing through 200 feet in the fog? A couple of days ago, I promised a friend a ride home, but it was solid VLIFR on the entire east coast. Nope. Sorry. He drove.

Good call Mimi. Has happened more than once to me too.

[Skates97]

30 minutes ago, kortopates said:

And to give you an idea how much things have improved we can now get a VFR Flight following clearance and code from most of our ground controllers in SOCAL before departure so that once airborne they're expecting us just like an IFR departure. 

KFUL is just a Delta class but they handle it like this. Request flight following from ground, they give you your squawk, heading, and frequency for SoCal. Once you are airborne they quickly hand you off to SoCal and you're in your way. 

[Ned Gravel]

I was cured of reliance on VFR in 2010, when heading south for the FISK arrival, Green Bay approach called me for traffic that was squawking 1200 but not talking to anyone, at my altitude within a couple miles of me, (sunward) and on an apparent collision course.   We quickly agreed I should turn right and climb. Spotted the traffic about 10 loooooong secs later when they turned left and the sun glinted off their wings.  

Later that month, I was denied flight following because of ATC workload. 

Never again.  I have almost always filed and flown IFR since.  Takes no extra time for me on my iPad.  

There has never been a time since that I have regretted the extra set of eyes, even if the routing is not the quickest.  ATC does not always help with weather and that is a strategic decision for me anyway - not a tactical one.  But traffic separation is entirely tactical.

[Flash]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

As a pilot who likes to keep learning, (tailwheel endorsement signed off just today) the instrument rating was just another step in that learning process.

Congratulations on the endorsement, Paul. Very cool.

[Flash]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

As I had flight following, I was compelled to follow whatever direction they give me.

Nope. You always have the option to cancel flight following. I have done this when given we-don't-want-you-anywhere-near-our-airspace vectors.

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

if they give me egregious vectors, I get angry, cancel ff, and go wherever I want, I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get a call from the faa.

What would that call say? If you're flying in Class E or G airspace (and not in a TFR or a Restricted Area or a Prohibited Area), you have a right to go where you want (assuming you're in compliance with VFR minima). No, I'm not advising you to take advantage of this to loiter in an approach corridor out of some misguided desire to assert your freedom, but I do think it's perfectly reasonable to cancel flight following and do what you want if you think the controller is being unreasonable.

Here's what the AIM says about a pilot's responsibilities when receiving flight following:

Traffic Advisories (Traffic Information)

a. Pilot.

1. Acknowledges receipt of traffic advisories.
2. Informs controller if traffic in sight.
3. Advises ATC if a vector to avoid traffic is desired.
4. Does not expect to receive radar traffic advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to issue traffic information for a variety of reasons.
5. Advises controller if service is not desired. (Emphasis added.)

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Flash

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Hank Im with you.  I get super frustrated at ATC sometimes denying me access to airspace when it seems there’s plenty of room to zip through!  At least the class B you’re talking about is a known (dimensions, altitudes, etc).  My biggest complaint out west has been Portland approach. A lowly class C, with tops at 4,000’ but they frustrate the heck out of me as they control a big chunk of NW Oregon.  I often fly east/west over/near their airspace as I go into/out of khio.  Doesn’t matter, ifr or vfr, you’ll get vectors way around.  In fact several times When vfr I was sent so far north I was trying to figure out where/how I was going to get over mt Rainer when they finally let me go east.  Actually they gave me a north vector and tried to pass me to Seattle center when I said unable, you’ve sent me so far north that I can’t get safely across the cascades anymore.

That time I actually looked up the regs about controller directions when vfr.  As I had flight following, I was compelled to follow whatever direction they give me.  I actually asked atc for their phone number and called when I got home.  I tried to be nice and see what could be done because I prefer not to just cruise right over their airspace at 5,000’ with no flight following which is totally legal.  I want flight following, but every time I get it they give ridiculous vectors.  The supervisor said, oh yeah, don’t just fly right over the top, always talk to us.  When I said, yeah, that works both ways though, you’ll have to work with me too, he just insisted they were too busy to let vfr aircraft fly right over the class c.  The call ended politely but without any resolution.  I really like flight following but if they give me egregious vectors, I get angry, cancel ff, and go wherever I want, I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get a call from the faa.

Now any controllers reading this, I can easily list 10 busy class B/Cs that are awesome.  I don’t have a thing against atc.  Sometimes it’s just the culture and procedures at a particular place.  

I can't say I've had such experiences with Portland TRACON.  In fact, I recall when I installed my ADS-B Out a couple years ago and had to do the rule airspace thing for 30 minutes to get my rebate, I flew VFR over the Portland Class C.  I asked Portland TRACON for flight following, and when the controller asked for a destination, he chuckled when I told him I had none and why.  He just asked if I could do my racetrack north/south over PDX and to let him know when I was done.

A couple times with flight following into Pearson in Vancouver, the approach controller sounded surprised when I said I'd take the Willamette River route under the Class C.  He said next time, just ask and they'd send me directly over PDX, they did it all the time for Pearson traffic.

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

I've been flying long enough to see ATC cultures change. Further south where I fly under the largest TRACON in the country we had very similar issues. Many of little guys got to the point they would avoid talking to ATC. But ATC was smart enough to recognize that's not in anyone best interest and really took to heart how they could get local pilot support.

I had noticed that in recent years ATC seemed to become much more receptive to VFR flight following requests.  In decades past it was common to be dropped rather than handed off but I haven’t experienced that in years. 

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

But what I really value is a low stress trip through the SOCAL Bravo which is extremely busy when flying under and around the fringes. So I personally prefer IFR since it makes it far easier than VFR - most of the time.

When I lived in Northern California I flew in and out of John Wayne hundreds of times. Never, not even once, VFR.  I found it easier, more predictable and lower stress to go IFR.  

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, Flash said:

Nope. You always have the option to cancel flight following. I have done this when given we-don't-want-you-anywhere-near-our-airspace vectors.

What would that call say? If you're flying in Class E or G airspace (and not in a TFR or a Restricted Area or a Prohibited Area), you have a right to go where you want (assuming you're in compliance with VFR minima). No, I'm not advising you to take advantage of this to loiter in an approach corridor out of some misguided desire to assert your freedom, but I do think it's perfectly reasonable to cancel flight following and do what you want if you think the controller is being unreasonable.

Here's what the AIM says about a pilot's responsibilities when receiving flight following:

Traffic Advisories (Traffic Information)

a. Pilot.

1. Acknowledges receipt of traffic advisories.
2. Informs controller if traffic in sight.
3. Advises ATC if a vector to avoid traffic is desired.
4. Does not expect to receive radar traffic advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to issue traffic information for a variety of reasons.
5. Advises controller if service is not desired. (Emphasis added.)

 

I agree you can try that, but the aim says you need to comply with controllers headings and altitude no matter if you’re vfr or ifr.  You’re probably right about eventually not getting in trouble.  However if they give you a vector away from somewhere and you don’t like it, so you cancel and then go right there, i think between this aim bullet and the general “unsafe operations” reg, you could get some grief.  It seems a bit passive aggressive to do it too.  I try not to get flustered when flying but still speak up for what I want.

[Ragsf15e]

8 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I can't say I've had such experiences with Portland TRACON.  In fact, I recall when I installed my ADS-B Out a couple years ago and had to do the rule airspace thing for 30 minutes to get my rebate, I flew VFR over the Portland Class C.  I asked Portland TRACON for flight following, and when the controller asked for a destination, he chuckled when I told him I had none and why.  He just asked if I could do my racetrack north/south over PDX and to let him know when I was done.

A couple times with flight following into Pearson in Vancouver, the approach controller sounded surprised when I said I'd take the Willamette River route under the Class C.  He said next time, just ask and they'd send me directly over PDX, they did it all the time for Pearson traffic.

That’s good to hear, maybe it’s just me, or it’s something about coming in there east/west.  I’ve asked for directly over pdx a few times and actually got it once, but several times one controller told me to expect it and then handed me off to the next who proceeded to send me way around.

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

That’s good to hear, maybe it’s just me, or it’s something about coming in there east/west.  I’ve asked for directly over pdx a few times and actually got it once, but several times one controller told me to expect it and then handed me off to the next who proceeded to send me way around.

I imagine east/west is more problematic, since the big traffic in and out goes that way.

PDX isn't a dinky airport.  It's the only major airport between SEATAC and SFO, and the eastern approach funnels aircraft through a low point in the Cascades.  There's a reason PDX gets its own inset on the sectionals even though it's a Class C airport.

[RobertGary1]

I guess I’ve been flying long enough that neither holds any special place in my heart. I usually do a combo of the two depending on where I’m going. Flying through the Bay Area or socal usually you try to be vfr as much as possible because otherwise your clearance will take you far off to the east. Both have vfr only routes that are much more direct. 
 

My commute into San Jose I try for vfr since they’ll squeeze me in between airliners but if the fog rolls jn I tell them I’ll give them 130 knots on the ils and pick up the clearance.

 

 -Robert 

[Bravoman]

On 10/30/2020 at 8:34 PM, Hank said:

I use whatever works for the trip, and have only requested pop-up clearances a couple of times.

That being said, I flew my Mooney for three years and 300+ hours before getting serious about IFR. That included a trip from WV to WY [1300+ nm each way] so my wife could see Yellowstone, and more trips than I can count going over the Appalachians to see family in NC and GA (summer, winter, Thanksgiving and Christmas). There were very few cancellations but several schedule adjustments, and I only diverted and landed elsewhere one time.

And just for @steingar, I was based in South Point, Ohio (KHTW, the original commercial airport for Huntington, WV), right on the bank of the Ohio River, with the same "beautiful" weather that I experienced living in metro-Columbus . . . .

But it is so very nice to get radio clearance from the nearby Class D and takeoff into the rainy gloom, then burst out after a minute or so and put on sunglasses. It's even nicer when Departure asks how thick the layer is!

Down here, though, Atlanta is a huge thorn in my side whether IFR or VFR. If IFR, I've actually been asked if I prefer HEFIN or SINCA; either one adds 20-25 minutes to my trip; when VFR, they are sometimes polite enough to ask me to "remain clear of the Bravo", otherwise it's "stay out of the Bravo"! I figure the emptiest volume inside the entire Bravo [which goes up to 12,500] is several thousand agl over the terminal, but approach is quite allergic to allowing any transient aircraft inside, and I'm not sure I could climb to 13,500 eastbound, cross the Bravo and get back under 12,500 in my C in less than the 30-minute limit. So I fly up and down the east or west side and often have to descend because they sent me around and through the arrival gate instead of straight through the empty air . . . 

It's tempting to fly across fhe bottom, turn north toward the arrivals at 9500, cancel flight following ("since you won't let me go through, guess I don't need services. Bye, ya'll!") and just listen to the chatter! But I haven't yet been that angry at Approach, in a bad enough mood and stupid all at once. But it's tempting! 

I definitely prefer to be on an instrument flight plan when  in and around the Atlanta Bravo. Our typical trip down to Saint Augustine and back from RYY and PDK typically gets us put on the WRGNZ  arrival on the way back. I’m sure it takes some extra time than cutting under the bravo floor but my blood pressure is a lot lower just staying IFR.  Heading south from those airports it’s always vectors over  Hartsfield, which is much more direct, and I highly doubt they would routinely do that for VFR traffic. 

[SantosDumont]

I live in the west and I've filed and used my IR only a handful of times, mostly to pop through layers.  The MEAs are so high here that if I'm flying through visible moisture I probably need to worry about icing.  Also why climb to 12k when I can get through the pass just fine at 6.5k?  I greatly prefer VFR flying and if weather is bad I'll just ride SouthWest and let them deal with it.

[Mooneymite]

On 10/30/2020 at 8:34 PM, Hank said:

I use whatever works for the trip, and have only requested pop-up clearances a couple of times.

That being said, I flew my Mooney for three years and 300+ hours before getting serious about IFR. That included a trip from WV to WY [1300+ nm each way] so my wife could see Yellowstone, and more trips than I can count going over the Appalachians to see family in NC and GA (summer, winter, Thanksgiving and Christmas). There were very few cancellations but several schedule adjustments, and I only diverted and landed elsewhere one time.

And just for @steingar, I was based in South Point, Ohio (KHTW, the original commercial airport for Huntington, WV), right on the bank of the Ohio River, with the same "beautiful" weather that I experienced living in metro-Columbus . . . .

But it is so very nice to get radio clearance from the nearby Class D and takeoff into the rainy gloom, then burst out after a minute or so and put on sunglasses. It's even nicer when Departure asks how thick the layer is!

Down here, though, Atlanta is a huge thorn in my side whether IFR or VFR. If IFR, I've actually been asked if I prefer HEFIN or SINCA; either one adds 20-25 minutes to my trip; when VFR, they are sometimes polite enough to ask me to "remain clear of the Bravo", otherwise it's "stay out of the Bravo"! I figure the emptiest volume inside the entire Bravo [which goes up to 12,500] is several thousand agl over the terminal, but approach is quite allergic to allowing any transient aircraft inside, and I'm not sure I could climb to 13,500 eastbound, cross the Bravo and get back under 12,500 in my C in less than the 30-minute limit. So I fly up and down the east or west side and often have to descend because they sent me around and through the arrival gate instead of straight through the empty air . . . 

It's tempting to fly across fhe bottom, turn north toward the arrivals at 9500, cancel flight following ("since you won't let me go through, guess I don't need services. Bye, ya'll!") and just listen to the chatter! But I haven't yet been that angry at Approach, in a bad enough mood and stupid all at once. But it's tempting! 

Hank, as you know, I live under that class B, but frankly it virtually never inconveniences me very much, except for having to sometimes fly lower than I'd like.  Ater flying commercially for years, I'd say that for the worlds busiest airport, ATL approach is amazingly accommodating... at least to me.  When I'm directly north bound, it always allows me an up and over through the corridor and when it can, it does clear me into the sacred B, but it is just not going to inconvenience Delta to do it.

Without ADS-B any class B is going to present problems, IFR, or VFR.

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Hank, as you know, I live under that class B, but frankly it virtually never inconveniences me very much, except for having to sometimes fly lower than I'd like.  Ater flying commercially for years, I'd say that for the worlds busiest airport, ATL approach is amazingly accommodating... at least to me.  When I'm directly north bound, it always allows me an up and over through the corridor and when it can, it does clear me into the sacred B, but it is just not going to inconvenience Delta to do it.

Without ADS-B any class B is going to present problems, IFR, or VFR.

I tend to cross it in a ENE direction. VFR, they tell me to stay out; IFR, I get either the HEFIN or SINCA penalty box. I've even asked for the T-Routes going through and been denied.

They are likely quite accommodating to GA traffic whose destination is inside / under the Bravo, but I just need to get past their roadblock that I can't go over and they won't let me go through--every single time I get to go around, been like that since I first flew this way from WV in probably 2008.

[PMcClure]

55 minutes ago, Hank said:

I tend to cross it in a ENE direction. VFR, they tell me to stay out; IFR, I get either the HEFIN or SINCA penalty box. I've even asked for the T-Routes going through and been denied.

They are likely quite accommodating to GA traffic whose destination is inside / under the Bravo, but I just need to get paLst their roadblock that I can't go over and they won't let me go through--every single time I get to go around, been like that since I first flew this way from WV in probably 2008.

I get the same treatment as Hank. Nello on the north side, hefin on the west or sinca to the south. Occasionally, i can get cleared through bravo on request and below 7000 on the outer rings. 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I tend to cross it in a ENE direction. VFR, they tell me to stay out; IFR, I get either the HEFIN or SINCA penalty box. I've even asked for the T-Routes going through and been denied.

They are likely quite accommodating to GA traffic whose destination is inside / under the Bravo, but I just need to get past their roadblock that I can't go over and they won't let me go through--every single time I get to go around, been like that since I first flew this way from WV in probably 2008.

Yes, but are you willing to go low?  The ground to 12,500' sector just isn't that big!  When I go NE across the B, I start out low, but approach almost always climbs me early.....  Just be aware of the extended centerlines where approach is trying to prevent the big jets from getting traffic alerts and it all make sense.  It is also very dependent on whether it is in an east, or west configuration.

As you can probably tell, I think Atlanta approach really does a great job given its constraints.  However...some days just aren't good days to fly the B.  Also, there are "individuals" you'll know by their voices that are not accommodating.....at all.

[WilliamR]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:25 PM, Mooneymite said:

Yes, but are you willing to go low?  The ground to 12,500' sector just isn't that big!  When I go NE across the B, I start out low, but approach almost always climbs me early.....  Just be aware of the extended centerlines where approach is trying to prevent the big jets from getting traffic alerts and it all make sense.  It is also very dependent on whether it is in an east, or west configuration.

As you can probably tell, I think Atlanta approach really does a great job given its constraints.  However...some days just aren't good days to fly the B.  Also, there are "individuals" you'll know by their voices that are not accommodating.....at all.

I'll echo this, there are one or two guys at ATL Tracon that can be pills, but most can be generally accommodating.  The differences in vectoring depending on whether there's an east or west arrival being used are material.  Tooling around the Atlanta metro area at 5-9000 really puts you in the heart of the arrivals feeding into ATL.  Below 3000, not so much.  Really, being at 2.4 gets you really close to ATL and keeps you from setting off RAs on every inbound Delta jet. 

William

[donkaye, MCFI]

At this point in my flying career I go for efficiency, with that dependent on weather.  Really knowing the VFR and IFR rules makes the decision fairly simple.  If I'm going to San Diego, for example, from San Jose and the weather is good, to save time from filing a route to go around Lemoore NAS I'll pre-file IFR from LHS, a VOR just before LA Airspace, and go VFR to there where I pick up the IFR.  I won't fly VFR in LA Airspace unless I'm working with a Student.  Coming back I file IFR, then near LA ask for a direct route instead of the delay going V459.  That is usually denied.  I then ask for VFR on Top and often get it.  If that is denied, I just cancel IFR, get Flight Following, and go the way I want to, assuming the weather is  VFR.   A couple of weeks ago I needed to go over to Reid Hillview to get the plane washed.  The smoke was so thick that it was IFR and 2½ miles at San Jose.  I asked for a special VFR over to KRHV.  Usually that works well, since KRHV is only 5 miles from KSJC.  After waiting 20 minutes, I gave up and got an IFR over there.  That was one time I should have just filed in the first place.  Bottom line, use both VFR and IFR and Special VFR in the most efficient manner to get you what you want in a safe manner.  Note that when you change to VFR on Top on an IFR Clearance you give up something, the separation provided on a Hard Altitude IFR Clearance.

[midlifeflyer]

Now that mountains aren't an issue, usually IFR for a trip of that length, but I'm in the "whatever works" group. It was brought home to me on a trip many years ago.

Flying out of APA south of Denver, I was heading IFR northeast to South Dakota. Heading east...and east...and east...and..., ATC finally asked, "is this an IFR training flight." When i said it wasn't, he indicated it would be a long time before I could turn north due to the DEN arrival corridor and gently suggested canceling IFR might be a good choice.