Looking for - Turbo for a Continental TSIO 360 LB and some questions

[Johnny_SA]

Good day

I'm Looking for a Turbo for a Continental TSIO 360 LB.  Seems ours is on its way out.  Can be used, overhauled or new. 

Anybody know of something or any dealer you guys/girls would recommend?

Symptoms - We have had low oil pressure for a while, bottom of green arc.  During the last 50hours I've notice that the oil pressure take longer and longer to build up after start (Same temperature conditions).  On my last flight the pressure stayed in the yellow arc, 24PSI. 

Any thoughts?

[xavierde]

How is your oil temp looking with oil pressure at that level?

[Johnny_SA]

[Johnny_SA]

Seems Normal to me

[Jim F]

Hi Johnny,

First always verify your A/C gauge is correct by teeing in a known good gauge.  Second, why do you think low oil pressure is turbo related.  Third what are the hours on the lower section? and fourth has your mechanic tried to adjust the oil pressure relief valve?

Jim

[tmo]

2 hours ago, Johnny_SA said:

Seems Normal to me

While I believe Continentals are known for lowish oil pressure, I would not consider this normal on mine, if the RPM isn't below say 1200. If OP says "On my last flight the pressure stayed in the yellow arc, 24PSI" then I'd definitely not consider it normal in-flight pressure.

+1 to the checking of the gauge / wiring (do not forget ground) / etc.

If you mean temperature looks normal, than yes, I agree, that looks good.

[dzeleski]

Looks like thats at cruise at 10,500. In which case that is no longer acceptable pressure. Idle on a hot day right before take off is one thing, not at cruise though. I would not be flying this airplane until you can determine if its a sensor/gauge failing, an oil pressure adjustment, or a mechanical failure.

[Johnny_SA]

Hello, Thank you for your replies.  Nice to meet some fellow M20K owners.

Thanks, that is a good idea to verify the Temp.  We have a JPI EDM900 in, but I'm not sure if they work from the same temp sensor for the oil. Don;t thinks so though.

Engine is 850h since Factory OH.  The pressure relief has set on every MPI and oil change, as I always mention the low oil pressure to our mechanic.  Blow byes are all good, and plugs are clear.  We been monitoring the pressure because of the delay in building oil pressure.  How long does it take for your oil pressure to stabilise after start up?  Ours use to take 3 - 5 sec.  Now it take almost 45 sec.  It is cold here in South Africa (Although our cold is not that cold as for you guys, 13 deg C is very cold for us).

We landed immediately.  The mechanic installed a pressure gage on the oil line as it exists the engine.  We found that the pressure at this point is almost 15 PSI higher than on the turbo side , at 1000RPM.  Also, after we adjust the pressure relief valve we got 30psi @ 1000RPM, and only 36PSI at 2200RPM.

What do you guys see at run up RPM, 1900?

Unrelated question, what TAS do you get at FL105 at 65% 50deg ROP?

Thanks again.

[Johnny_SA]

5 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

Looks like thats at cruise at 10,500. In which case that is no longer acceptable pressure. Idle on a hot day right before take off is one thing, not at cruise though. I would not be flying this airplane until you can determine if its a sensor/gauge failing, an oil pressure adjustment, or a mechanical failure.

Fully agree.  We landed at the nearest airport and pulled in at the local AMO.  Our mechanic ask them to run the test.  This is why we are looking for a turbo.  We will rather buy one and replace it to be sure.  Turbo is almost half life now, and if I understand correctly, they don't often run for all their hours.  Only issue is that there is no Turbo's available in South Africa, and no more companies open to overhaul ours.

[Johnny_SA]

JPI Info

[thinwing]

if you are sure of turbo issue...i would fed ex your turbo and controller/wastegate to main turbo,c/o gary main fresno calif

[carusoam]

Oil pressure is often a complex topic...

So I wrote yesterday...  

Measuring the OilP is equally complex...

Often, in one engine... their is a mirrored location where a second OilP sensor is mounted... different, yet the same...
 

Also often... a TC’d plane has three oil pumps... 

1) Oil the engine...

2) pressurize the prop control... (Governor)

3) Return (scavenge) oil from the turbo...

This is all on the supply side of moving oil by the gallons....

What builds pressure is all the wear items, not being worn.... Pressing oil through a tight gap causes its pressure to rise...

When the engine’s bearings wear... the gaps increase in size, and more oil flows through the gaps, and easily drops the OilP...
 

So...

The first things somebody checks...is the OilP sensor really working... the ships gauge, mounted in the right spot counts... the other locations may be a good mimic... but now the pilot needs to be more of a mechanic... to be sure...

The next thing they may check is the oil pressure regulator... since it can be set to get the proper engine oil pressure for the engine....

Turbos wear... they have bearings... in a similar way, their gap can open, allowing more oil to flow from high to low pressure zones...

Our friend Tom knows a couple of things about K turbos... he can probably give some insight from his turbo wear experience... and possibly a test that can be performed by the pilot to get a feel for how worn the bearings may be...

Let’s ask @Yooper Rocketman (Suspected worn turbo in an M20K...)
 

Do worn turbo bearings usually cause a drop in engine oil pressure?

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Yooper Rocketman]

Not sure how difficult it is to inspect the intake or exhaust side of the turbine wheel and shaft on this specific engine but most times when a turbo is starting to fail there will be some evidence that can be detected on inspection (scraping of the wheel on the housing, drag when spinning the turbine wheel, slop in the shaft and bearings, oil leakage evidence, overheating evidence, etc.).  If you are contemplating removing it for overhaul/replacement anyway, inspect the unit once getting the intake and exhaust removed.

Tom

[Jim F]

22 hours ago, Johnny_SA said:

Hello, Thank you for your replies.  Nice to meet some fellow M20K owners.

Thanks, that is a good idea to verify the Temp.  We have a JPI EDM900 in, but I'm not sure if they work from the same temp sensor for the oil. Don;t thinks so though.

Engine is 850h since Factory OH.  The pressure relief has set on every MPI and oil change, as I always mention the low oil pressure to our mechanic.  Blow byes are all good, and plugs are clear.  We been monitoring the pressure because of the delay in building oil pressure.  How long does it take for your oil pressure to stabilise after start up?  Ours use to take 3 - 5 sec.  Now it take almost 45 sec.  It is cold here in South Africa (Although our cold is not that cold as for you guys, 13 deg C is very cold for us).

We landed immediately.  The mechanic installed a pressure gage on the oil line as it exists the engine.  We found that the pressure at this point is almost 15 PSI higher than on the turbo side , at 1000RPM.  Also, after we adjust the pressure relief valve we got 30psi @ 1000RPM, and only 36PSI at 2200RPM.

What do you guys see at run up RPM, 1900?

Unrelated question, what TAS do you get at FL105 at 65% 50deg ROP?

Thanks again.

Thanks for the info

You state that your mechanic has adjusted the oil pressure relief valve.  Could he get a higher oil pressure then 36psi?  In cruise mine is 41psi on a 1800hr engine.  Your picture shows 26psi, what is the cruise oil pressure 26 or 36?  Is your oil pressure changing over time?  like 26 psi, adjust relief valve then 36, then drops over 10hr to 26psi.  

On the oil indication on start up, if there is air in the oil line up to the oil pressure sensor it will take some time for the air to compress.  One of the things I do when installing a new engine is to crack the oil hose right at the sensor on start up to get the air out.  Now you will get a true time oil indication.  Remember that on a continental your reading the down steam oil pressure so it must fill all the oil galleys before you see the pressure rise.

Are you making any metal in the filter?  Does the prop control work well?

What oil are you using?  If straight weight oil you can also try adding a quart on 60wt oil and see what that does.

Here is a pic of my K in cruise 1000 degrees rich of peak

 

[Johnny_SA]

The photo of the JPI was taking in cruise, 24PSI.  

No Metal in the filter.  Prop control is working normally.

@Jim F What speeds do you get at those settings?

[jlunseth]

On 10/16/2020 at 10:24 AM, tmo said:

While I believe Continentals are known for lowish oil pressure, I would not consider this normal on mine, if the RPM isn't below say 1200. If OP says "On my last flight the pressure stayed in the yellow arc, 24PSI" then I'd definitely not consider it normal in-flight pressure.

+1 to the checking of the gauge / wiring (do not forget ground) / etc.

If you mean temperature looks normal, than yes, I agree, that looks good.

Its not normal. Mine, on an LB with 2,000 hours, is in the mid- to high-30's. Might be 38-42 on start up and then 36-38 after some time at cruise. But I agree about the turbo not necessarily being the problem. One way to find out if you are getting oil blow by in the turbo is to periodically run your finger over the inside of the exhaust during your pre-flight. If it is dry, no leak, at least not into the turbo. If it is grimy you have a leak. Lots of other things can cause low oil pressure. Pump going bad, plugged pick up screen in the sump, etc. Plenty of places here in the US where you can get a turbo rebuilt. Last time I had mine done it was at Willmar Air Service (they had a third party do it, don't remember who). Its now Oasis Aero in Willmar. Its been quite awhile, but I had occasion to have the sump removed. Among other things we found about an inch diameter piece of rubber gasket material swimming around. Long gone now.

Edited October 17, 2020 by jlunseth

[Warren]

My last flight.  Oil - W100, FL180, 2400 RPM, 30"MP, oil temp approx 25% of scale (??300) - oil pressure was approx. 55 (mid scale between 30 and 80 on gage).

LB engine with approx. 600 hours.  This is pretty consistently what I see.  Only lower pressures I see are after landing, hot day,... it is in the yellow at 1000 rpm.

[jlunseth]

Off the point, but the CHT gauge made me shudder. I know the redline CHT is 460, but at that point you are really hurting your engine. So when the needle is in between, what is the temp?  380? 420? Who knows with that type of gauge.

[231LV]

17 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Off the point, but the CHT gauge made me shudder. I know the redline CHT is 460, but at that point you are really hurting your engine. So when the needle is in between, what is the temp?  380? 420? Who knows with that type of gauge.

?? HIs highest CHT is 371...nothing wrong with that. The strip gauge you are likely referring to has the JPI showing exact temps in another photo...

[jlunseth]

Yes, I was commenting on the factory gauge.

[Guest]

On 10/16/2020 at 5:38 AM, Johnny_SA said:

Good day

I'm Looking for a Turbo for a Continental TSIO 360 LB.  Seems ours is on its way out.  Can be used, overhauled or new. 

Anybody know of something or any dealer you guys/girls would recommend?

Symptoms - We have had low oil pressure for a while, bottom of green arc.  During the last 50hours I've notice that the oil pressure take longer and longer to build up after start (Same temperature conditions).  On my last flight the pressure stayed in the yellow arc, 24PSI. 

Any thoughts?

First thing is accuracy of the gauge.  Continental engines usually read their oil pressure after the crankshaft bearing, meaning they indicate lower values than Lycoming engines.

Second thing is to ask your maintainer about the oil pump suction screen, many don’t know that a TSIO 360 has one. A blocked screen can cause pressure issues.
 

Clarence

[Jim F]

On 10/17/2020 at 9:03 AM, Johnny_SA said:

The photo of the JPI was taking in cruise, 24PSI.  

No Metal in the filter.  Prop control is working normally.

@Jim F What speeds do you get at those settings?

Please have your maintainer check the suction screen as M20Doc notes.

What type and WT of oil are you using?  I am using Aeroshell 15-50

My speeds are

75% 100 ROP 10K 195 MPHTAS, 17K 210 MPMTAS

65% ~25ROP 10K 185 MPHTAS. 17K 196 MPHTAS

Jim

[Johnny_SA]

Once again thanks for all the information.

We use AeroShell Oil W100 Plus.  I will ask them to check the suction screen.

They did a test where they installed a pressure gage from the "output" of the engine, before the check valve.  The pressure at idle is 35PSI at that point, 10 PSI more.

I would imagine that if the suction screen is block we would get low pressure at that point already?

We managed to find a rebuilt Turbo exchange on your side of the world, we are now waiting for shipping.

 

[Jim F]

On 10/17/2020 at 9:03 AM, Johnny_SA said:

The photo of the JPI was taking in cruise, 24PSI.  

No Metal in the filter.  Prop control is working normally.

@Jim F What speeds do you get at those settings?

H johnny,

Sorry for the delay I was traveling.

FL	MPH
FL21	219
FL20	217
FL19	214
18ft	212
17ft	210
16ft	207
15ft	205
14ft	203
13ft	200
12ft	198
11ft	196
10ft	195
9ft	194
8ft	193
7ft	191
6ft	190
5ft	189
4ft	188 Jim

[Guest]

On 10/20/2020 at 11:07 AM, Johnny_SA said:

Once again thanks for all the information.

We use AeroShell Oil W100 Plus.  I will ask them to check the suction screen.

They did a test where they installed a pressure gage from the "output" of the engine, before the check valve.  The pressure at idle is 35PSI at that point, 10 PSI more.

I would imagine that if the suction screen is block we would get low pressure at that point already?

We managed to find a rebuilt Turbo exchange on your side of the world, we are now waiting for shipping.

 

Any updates yet?

Clarence