380 mile commute. What is the best Mooney for $125,000 purchase price?

[carusoam]

Just now, Tim Jodice said:

I came up with the same when I ran the numbers. 

Similar to my M20C...

Similar numbers for the M20R when accounting for speed...

See if @FlyDave has any insight to this particular plane... if Dave is still connected to MS...

Best regards,

-a-

[Missile=Awesome]

Slow and efficient is great until you have an IO550 and then 3 more gallons an hour is like “k”...

[Willie]

1 hour ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Slow and efficient is great until you have an IO550 and then 3 more gallons an hour is like “k”...

Ha ha! Yeah. My friend has a Cessna 210 with an IO 550 and he says hands down go that direction instead of turbocharged. He changed his turbo 210 to that 550 and live it. He actually just overhauled it and paid $36,000 for that. Not cheap but not as bad as some as these other numbers guys are putting out there for an overhaul on a turbocharged engine

[carusoam]

Somebody with a Screamin’ Eagle, Standing Ovation, Missile or an O3 has to throw Willie his first like...

For recognizing the inherent value of The highly powered, NA, IO550!

I ran out of likes... for the day...
 

If your friends like the performance Of an IO550 in Brand C...

You are going to love the IO550 in a Mooney!

 

Go Mooney!

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

Just now, carusoam said:

Somebody with a Screamin’ Eagle, Standing Ovation, Missile or an O3 has to throw Willie his first like...

For recognizing the inherent value of The highly powered, NA, IO550!

I ran out of likes... for the day...
 

If your friends like the performance Of an IO550 in Brand C...

You are going to love the IO550 in a Mooney!

 

Go Mooney!

-a-

Done! 

[carusoam]

It takes a team...   

-a-

[GDGR]

15 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

My J cost first 100 hours...hanger $3,500...insurance $2,000...fuel $4,500...annual $2,000...tires, brakes, oil changes $1,000...garmin pilot/ifr updates $400...foreflight $200...half of altimeter recert for ifr $150...engine reserve 2,500 (based on 2k life@$25...full factory engine change)

$17k...or $17 an hour for first 100 hours, ...above 100 hours the cost is about $100 an hour.

I think you’re missing a zero there. 
sorry to ruin your night..... or what you told your wife it costs per hour. 

[Willie]

1 hour ago, kmyfm20s said:

Done! 

I just read an article on what a screaming eagle is. That’s awesome! Little more leg room for kids when they get bigger too

[carusoam]

Just now, Willie said:

I just read an article on what a screaming eagle is. That’s awesome! Little more leg room for kids when they get bigger too

And a boatload more space for all their pack and play stuff...

 

We went Long body as the kids grew full size...
 

We were simply looking for the next size up in 2008... but economics being what they were...

We found a great Ovation...

Best regards,

-a-

[Willie]

34 minutes ago, GLJA said:

I think you’re missing a zero there. 
sorry to ruin your night..... or what you told your wife it costs per hour. 

That’s funny! And yes I am conveniently leaving out the whole engine overhaul thing out when I talk to my wife. I mean it’s like saying we shouldn’t buy that house you want because it will need a new roof and kitchen at some point in the future. 

[Willie]

17 hours ago, Zane Williams said:

We have a M20K 262, which means it is a 231 converted to the 252 engine by STC.

It cruises best at 11.5 gallons per hour, regardless of altitude.  With the turbo, altitude is chosen based on winds, clouds, and comfort / turbulence.  I use these numbers for real-world flight planning:

155 KTAS at 5,000 feet

165 KTAS at 9,000 feet

180 KTAS  at 15,000 feet

The plane has the same indicated airspeed all the way up and likes to settle in between 140 and 145 KIAS depending on load and smoothness of the air.

When there's a nice tailwind and oxygen in the tank we'll go high.  When there's a headwind, we climb just until smooth air usually and stay there.  Typical trip is high going east and low going west unless you get lucky.

Having flown both a naturally aspirated C Mooney and now the turbo K, I would not give the turbo up.  It's not about speed or fuel burn, but comfort and options.  Compared to overall cost of ownership the additional money is not that much.

You might keep an eye out for a 262 converted 231.  There are not many of them but they sometimes come up in your price range and are usually a little cheaper than a factory 252.  Most have the long range 105 gallon tanks which you can use to tanker a ridiculous amount of fuel when you're flying solo.

Appreciate the real world numbers. Thank you

[Willie]

14 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Think about it.  Up to about 5500 to 7500', depending on what RPM you use, both the J and K will have about the same cruise speed at a given power setting.  However, the J will have a lower fuel flow because of the higher compression ratio of the engine.  Above that, the J cruise speed will plateau and then slowly drop off.  It plateaus, up to a point, because the indicated is slowly dropping, but the TAS increases with altitude for a given IAS.  The K on the other hand will continue to gain another 2 or 3 knots for each 1000' climbed.  So by 12,000' the K will probably be 10 to 15 knots faster than the J but will be burning, I'm guessing, 1.5 to 2 GPH more.  In the climb the J will probably average 700 fpm to altitude while the K will maintain climb rate of 1100 fpm all the way up to 12,000'.

So the K will get up to cruise speed 5 or 6 minutes sooner than the J.  Since that's only about 30 or 40 knots faster than climb speed, it will only be about 3 or 4 miles ahead of the J when the J levels off.  By the time you subtract climb and descent distance, we are talking about something around 2 hours of cruising.  If the K is 15 knots faster it will have pulled away from the J by another 30 miles.  At top of descent, that puts the K about 35 miles or so ahead of the J.  It will take the J about 13 or 14 minutes to fly that far so that's all the time you save with the K.

But the K will have burned 18 GPH all the way up to cruise altitude and probably about 10.5 GPH at cruise for 2 hours.  The J will have burned an average of something closer to 15 GPH in the climb and 8.5 GPH at cruise.  So the K should burn about 2 or 3 gallons more than the J.  Your trade off is 2 or 3 gallons to save 13 or 14 minutes.

You’ve really thought about this!  Thanks for the analysis. Makes sense

[Willie]

13 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Every model has a trade off distance for both time and fuel burn.

For time.  If I climb 1000', how long will it take me to do that and how much slower will I be going?  If it takes 1 minute and I'm going 30 knots slower I'll be 1/2 mile behind the plane that stayed at the lower altitude.  Can I make up that difference in the descent?  Depends on how smooth the air is and how much bouncing around I'm willing to put up with.  Let's say that yes I can.  Climbing 1000' will gain me about 2 or 3 knots in a K.  If I do that for 2 hours, I'll be 4 to 6 miles ahead at the end of 2 hours which will save me about 2 minutes.  That's about 1 minute/hour of cruise for each 1000' of climb assuming the winds are the same (which they rarely are).  Also, every 1000' I climb will increase the time/distance I spend climbing and descending and reduce the time I spend cruising.  Therefore there will be a diminishing return as I go higher and higher.  A 5 knot less favorable wind would wipe out any benefit of climbing.  On the other hand a 5 knot more favorable wind would add to the advantage.  So bottom line, I would pay more attention to wind direction and speed than planning on higher airspeed to save me time.

For fuel.  Each 1000' of climb cost you about .25 gallons.  You won't make much of that up in the descent because there is a much larger increase in burn rate during the climb than there is a decrease in burn rate during the descent.  How far can I fly on .25 gallons?  About 4 miles.  If my speed increases by 2 knots on the same burn by climbing, I'd need to spend 2 hours cruising to make up the difference.  I've found, that for fuel, the break even point is about 300 NM.  All other factors being equal, much less than 300 miles I want to stay as low as practical.  Much beyond 300 miles, I want to go high.

My commute is about 380 miles so seems I’m in between

[Z W]

19 hours ago, Willie said:

I see!
what is the difference between what you have and a 231 with an intercooler and a Merlin?

The market seems pretty thin right now. Not a ton of inventory 

The 252s have a TSIO-360-MB or later TSIO-360-SB engine.  Ours is an MB.  The main difference is a fully automatic wastegate so there is no throttle management for the pilot.  Takeoffs and go-arounds are always full throttle with no worry of overboosting the engine.  They also all had dual alternators, allowing for FIKI on some planes, and an increased service ceiling of 28,000 feet.  Many of the 231s with intercoolers and Merlins added perform about the same but I believe you still have to manage the throttle to avoid overboosting the engine, resulting in higher pilot workload.

252's are hard to find for sale.  They are considered peak Mooney efficiency.  Later long-body models go faster and have more cargo room but burn significantly more fuel to do it, often resulting in decreased range.

There are lots of threads on this topic here and I'm sure a better Mooney historian than me can give more info if you want.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Zane Williams

[jlunseth]

So much theory and not much reality.

I have a 231 that I fly a lot, but I very rarely fly it for work and don’t get myself in “gotta get there” scenarios. That includes making the outbound trip and then “gotta get home” by a schedule. My aircraft is not FIKI. We have lots of icing issues here in the midwest, they start about now and run through about April. Dispatchability in non-FIKI is always an issue during that period. Mooneys do not carry ice well, trust me on that, and you do not want to get into it without a very good, clear, out.

Yes, 252’s can be FIKI, but your budget was 125,000 and there are all of five or six FIKI 252’s out there in the world, when they do come on the market they are around 240,000 right now.  You can buy a non-FIKI and add FIKI, but adding FIKI is 75,000. 

About 8 or 9 years ago we lost a family here in Minneapolis in a J accident.  Went out west to go skiing, I think it was Jackson Hole but it has been awhile.  Sent mom home commercial when the weather was not cooperating.  Dad was a business executive.  Tried to out wait the weather for four days, but got impatient.  Decided the weather was good enough and he could make the climb out. Loaded himself and two young sons in the J. It did not have the weather capacity or climb rate to get through the winter weather, probably icing was a factor. At any rate, they impacted terrain in a CFIT. I have flown the mountains quite a bit. The J and Missile guys will hate me, but as far as I am concerned you have no business using a normally aspirated in those conditions if there is any chance you will find yourself pressured to get there.  If you have all the time in the world and can wait for CAVU with no mountain waves fine.

I like Don K’s recommendation of a FIKI Bravo for you alot.  Just understand the acquisition cost is going to be around a little less than double your budget.  When a FIKI Bravo comes on the market, and there have been very few lately, they are around 229,000 unless the engine is a run-out.

[philiplane]

why not move to the Oakland area, and then have more time for doing what you want, instead of traveling to go to work? Petaluma is nice. 

Then the airplane choices become simpler.

I did the commuting thing when the kids were younger. 1:15 by car or 20 minutes by plane. I used the plane to make it to school functions in the middle of the day, then go back to work. I was usually the only dad at those functions, and my kids would see me as I flew over on the way in. The school was literally on base leg for the airport, which was also only two miles from home. 

That was a short commute, especially by California standards. I gave up other longer commutes in order to have enough time at home.

Time is the one thing you can never get more of.

Edited September 14, 2020 by philiplane

[Bob - S50]

8 hours ago, Willie said:

My commute is about 380 miles so seems I’m in between

Yep, so that means just about any altitude you pick will be within a few minutes and a gallon or two fuel burn.

[Willie]

3 hours ago, Zane Williams said:

The 252s have a TSIO-360-MB or later TSIO-360-SB engine.  Ours is an MB.  The main difference is a fully automatic wastegate so there is no throttle management for the pilot.  Takeoffs and go-arounds are always full throttle with no worry of overboosting the engine.  They also all had dual alternators, allowing for FIKI on some planes, and an increased service ceiling of 28,000 feet.  Many of the 231s with intercoolers and Merlins added perform about the same but I believe you still have to manage the throttle to avoid overboosting the engine, resulting in higher pilot workload.

252's are hard to find for sale.  They are considered peak Mooney efficiency.  Later long-body models go faster and have more cargo room but burn significantly more fuel to do it, often resulting in decreased range.

There are lots of threads on this topic here and I'm sure a better Mooney historian than me can give more info if you want.

I see. So performance is similar but takes more care on takeoff power. That’s not a huge deal to me but I could see why that hurts resale. Thank you for explanation.

[Willie]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

So much theory and not much reality.

I have a 231 that I fly a lot, but I very rarely fly it for work and don’t get myself in “gotta get there” scenarios. That includes making the outbound trip and then “gotta get home” by a schedule. My aircraft is not FIKI. We have lots of icing issues here in the midwest, they start about now and run through about April. Dispatchability in non-FIKI is always an issue during that period. Mooneys do not carry ice well, trust me on that, and you do not want to get into it without a very good, clear, out.

Yes, 252’s can be FIKI, but your budget was 125,000 and there are all of five or six FIKI 252’s out there in the world, when they do come on the market they are around 240,000 right now.  You can buy a non-FIKI and add FIKI, but adding FIKI is 75,000. 

About 8 or 9 years ago we lost a family here in Minneapolis in a J accident.  Went out west to go skiing, I think it was Jackson Hole but it has been awhile.  Sent mom home commercial when the weather was not cooperating.  Dad was a business executive.  Tried to out wait the weather for four days, but got impatient.  Decided the weather was good enough and he could make the climb out. Loaded himself and two young sons in the J. It did not have the weather capacity or climb rate to get through the winter weather, probably icing was a factor. At any rate, they impacted terrain in a CFIT. I have flown the mountains quite a bit. The J and Missile guys will hate me, but as far as I am concerned you have no business using a normally aspirated in those conditions if there is any chance you will find yourself pressured to get there.  If you have all the time in the world and can wait for CAVU with no mountain waves fine.

I like Don K’s recommendation of a FIKI Bravo for you alot.  Just understand the acquisition cost is going to be around a little less than double your budget.  When a FIKI Bravo comes on the market, and there have been very few lately, they are around 229,000 unless the engine is a run-out.

I hate hearing stories like that. Better pilots than that guy have done similar. I can’t spend that kind of money on a FIKI. I would need a partner for anything like that.

[Willie]

1 hour ago, philiplane said:

why not move to the Oakland area, and then have more time for doing what you want, instead of traveling to go to work? Petaluma is nice. 

Then the airplane choices become simpler.

I did the commuting thing when the kids were younger. 1:15 by car or 20 minutes by plane. I used the plane to make it to school functions in the middle of the day, then go back to work. I was usually the only dad at those functions, and my kids would see me as I flew over on the way in. The school was literally on base leg for the airport, which was also only two miles from home. 

That was a short commute, especially by California standards. I gave up other longer commutes in order to have enough time at home.

Time is the one thing you can never get more of.

That’s good living and cool stories of dad flying base over the school!
I love where I live now. I grew up in the Bay Area and I’m happy down here and my family is happy. Don’t mess with a good thing. 

[Willie]

1 hour ago, philiplane said:

why not move to the Oakland area, and then have more time for doing what you want, instead of traveling to go to work? Petaluma is nice. 

Then the airplane choices become simpler.

I did the commuting thing when the kids were younger. 1:15 by car or 20 minutes by plane. I used the plane to make it to school functions in the middle of the day, then go back to work. I was usually the only dad at those functions, and my kids would see me as I flew over on the way in. The school was literally on base leg for the airport, which was also only two miles from home. 

That was a short commute, especially by California standards. I gave up other longer commutes in order to have enough time at home.

Time is the one thing you can never get more of.

And!!  If I ever move from here it won’t be to a place even more expensive. I would go to someplace with low taxes. But thank you. I do hear where you are coming from. During Covid I’ve had nothing but time with the family so I’m good for a while. I’ve banked at least a couple years of family time in the last 6 months.

[jlunseth]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/11/settlements-agreed-upon-in-plane-crash.html

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/jackson-hole-mooney-12093

It was three sons, two 14 y.o. twins and a 12 year old.And it was Jackson Hole.

Just had to get back.

[Greg_D]

20 hours ago, Willie said:

Don,

What do you think of this plane?

PM me if you want to talk specifics about this plane.  I ferried it to TX from CA for Jimmy a little over a month ago.

[Missile=Awesome]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

So much theory and not much reality.

I have a 231 that I fly a lot, but I very rarely fly it for work and don’t get myself in “gotta get there” scenarios. That includes making the outbound trip and then “gotta get home” by a schedule. My aircraft is not FIKI. We have lots of icing issues here in the midwest, they start about now and run through about April. Dispatchability in non-FIKI is always an issue during that period. Mooneys do not carry ice well, trust me on that, and you do not want to get into it without a very good, clear, out.

Yes, 252’s can be FIKI, but your budget was 125,000 and there are all of five or six FIKI 252’s out there in the world, when they do come on the market they are around 240,000 right now.  You can buy a non-FIKI and add FIKI, but adding FIKI is 75,000. 

About 8 or 9 years ago we lost a family here in Minneapolis in a J accident.  Went out west to go skiing, I think it was Jackson Hole but it has been awhile.  Sent mom home commercial when the weather was not cooperating.  Dad was a business executive.  Tried to out wait the weather for four days, but got impatient.  Decided the weather was good enough and he could make the climb out. Loaded himself and two young sons in the J. It did not have the weather capacity or climb rate to get through the winter weather, probably icing was a factor. At any rate, they impacted terrain in a CFIT. I have flown the mountains quite a bit. The J and Missile guys will hate me, but as far as I am concerned you have no business using a normally aspirated in those conditions if there is any chance you will find yourself pressured to get there.  If you have all the time in the world and can wait for CAVU with no mountain waves fine.

I like Don K’s recommendation of a FIKI Bravo for you alot.  Just understand the acquisition cost is going to be around a little less than double your budget.  When a FIKI Bravo comes on the market, and there have been very few lately, they are around 229,000 unless the engine is a run-out.

The original poster has spoken extensively about his conservative plans for flying and ability to take commercial...wanting to take commercial...for points maintenance.  He has been very open and honest.  He is not that dad that killed his kids in making a horrible decision.  Not sure why you went there?  J and Missile guys are happy and NOT haters.  They have the plane they can afford AND the plane they want.  It’s a beautiful thing.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Missile=Awesome
Spellcheck is ridiculous and does NOT like the word conservative...

[MIm20c]

No perfect plane out there, just do the best you can for your mission. Flying an Ovation and M20c back to back and side by side I’m amazed how capable even the lowly C is. For a 400 mile trip the block to block difference is around 20 mins depending on winds. Where the Ovation pays off is the 1000 mile hops in a day. So if your planning on marking the round trip in a day I’d go as much speed as you can afford. Otherwise, with as much flexibility you mentioned, any plane with a backward tail will work great.