Touch and Go's not recommended? Why?

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The Commercial ticket requires 10 night landings but no mention of them being full stop. I've done 10 T&G's at night to meet that requirement.

That's a License requirement, which is a different matter.

May I present FAR 61.57. Night flying begins with Paragraph b below:

". . . unless that person has made three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop . . ."

Ya'll ain't been cheatin', now, have ya?    And no, mistakes ain't cheating, except for those "accidently on purpose" events.

[eman1200]

I just came back from doing some pattern work..............which included...............omgomgomg...............TOUCH AND GOOOOoooooo's.............................at night.

.............................and........................I SURVIVED!!!!!!!

I was either really really lucky or I just got some mad mooney skillz that pay the billz.  actually they don't pay any billz, but they are pretty mad.  is there a separate mooney subforum for those who endure TnG's?

[N201MKTurbo]

Ok, just to feed the fire......

If you choose to not do T&Gs, that’s OK,

BUT, If you don’t feel comfortable doing them, you may need more training....

[jetdriven]

It’s not more training. It’s realizing that the operation can go from controlled to out of control very quickly.  Muscle memory causes you to move the gear handle, thinking it’s something else, or thinking the phase of flight is something else. There’s a lot of planes that ended up on their belly because of this. I don’t want mine to be like that, and I’m not in that big of hurry to get the three landings. 

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It’s not more training. It’s realizing that the operation can go from controlled to out of control very quickly.  Muscle memory causes you to move the gear handle, thinking it’s something else, or thinking the phase of flight is something else. There’s a lot of planes that ended up on their belly because of this. I don’t want mine to be like that, and I’m. It in that big of hurry to get the three landings. 

Sounds like practice or training of any kind should be avoided, because it always creates opportunities for mistakes to be made.

[jaylw314]

Nobody has mentioned that one of the skills kept current by doing T&G's is the muscle memory for performing a go-around.  The procedure for go-arounds in Mooney's is generally:

• Throttle to full and push nose down 
• Trim nose down
• Flaps to 1/2
• Gear up
• Flaps up
• Fuel pump off
• Cowl flaps open (if necessary)

That's rather a lot to deal with in the even of an unprepared go-around.  Failed go-arounds cause more deaths than inadvertent gear-up incidents

[ArtVandelay]

Nobody has mentioned that one of the skills kept current by doing T&G's is the muscle memory for performing a go-around.  The procedure for go-arounds in Mooney's is generally:

• Throttle to full and push nose down 
• Trim nose down
• Flaps to 1/2
• Gear up
• Flaps up
• Fuel pump off
• Cowl flaps open (if necessary)

That's rather a lot to deal with in the even of an unprepared go-around.  Failed go-arounds cause more deaths than inadvertent gear-up incidents

Only the first 2 need to be done with any urgency, I wonder if a reason pilots get into trouble is because they trim for a hands off landing which results in a lot of nose up when power is applied.

[Ibra]

I think the only risk is runway length, when runway length is good one can practice lot of things:
- TnG with no flaps in case one day they go U/S, also in the J, I found no flaps much convenient for night & IFR good handling, no risk of re-config and the flatish attitude improves visual clues near the ground 
- TnG with full flaps all the way to the climb  
- TnG and do all config from scratch 
- Full stop on active runway and even get a takeoff clearance on active runway 
- Full stop on active runway and takeoff on opposite runway with tailwind, not sure why one would takeoff with tailwind? but why not? 
- Full stop on opposite runway and takeoff on active runway (say less than 10kts tailwind), tailwind landings are worth some practice 
- Full stop and backtrack to active runway into wind

None of these can be done safely on a short runway, except the last one !

Edited August 27, 2020 by Ibra

[tmo]

44 minutes ago, Ibra said:

not sure why one would takeoff with tailwind? but why not?

Downhill gradient. See the discussion of multiple SR20 overruns in Czechia some months ago. Also insurmountable obstructions at upwind end, granted those aren't a common thing.

[Mark605]

I'm just a lowly Bonanza pilot, but I won't do touch and goes in my airplane. A big factor is that the gear and flap handles are mostly hidden by the yoke, and there is just too much opportunity to make a very expensive mistake. Also, I am not really impacted operationally by not doing a T&G. If the runway is long enough, I will do a stop and go, and if not I will do a taxi back. 

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, tmo said:

Downhill gradient. See the discussion of multiple SR20 overruns in Czechia some months ago. Also insurmountable obstructions at upwind end, granted those aren't a common thing.

Yes I agree going downhill with tailwind could work but calculation has to be bloody right, it's outgoing only there is no coming back even with breaks
Going uphill into wind give me more chances to check the cals, if they turns out to be wrong, I can call it off at 3/4 and still walkway me & aircraft 
Depending how uphill into wind looks, I may try downhill with tailwind next? 

I am sure "70/50 conservative rule" do not work well with +slope and -tailwind, but something along these should work better 
2*Distance_flat    = V_Stall^2/Flat_Acceleration
2*Distance_uphill = (V_Stall-Wind)^2/(Flat_Acceleration-Gravity*SlopeGradient)
2*Distance_dnhill = (V_Stall+Wind)^2/(Flat_Acceleration+Gravity*SlopeGradient)

In theory, it compares ratio tailwind speed to stall speed vs gravity times gradient in same units, so I do see some tradeoff with 5kts tailwind but it looks scary with 10kts tailwind IMO:
- In M20J with 60kts stall, 10kts tailwind need 16% downhill to breakeven vs uphill takeoff into wind 
- In Cub with 40kts stall, 10kts tailwind need 25% downhill to breakeven vs uphill takeoff into wind (Courchevel LFLJ)  

At the place where I fly tailwheels, they don't do TnG for teaching, it has 20% steep slope and pylons on the high end
Even after endorsement, some still like to taxi & backtrack slowly as they get billed on airtime = ASI > 30kts 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Ibra

[GeeBee]

T&G's it all depends. I don't like them with primary students because they learn bad habits, such as raising the flaps before adding power. 

As Mooneymite said, I've done them in jets too, from both seats however the Check Airman should set the flaps and the trim, then give the word to the PF that the aircraft is configured for takeoff.

As for doing them in a complex airplane recap, again, it depends. If you are doing them on a 10,000 foot runway where you are down to taxi speed before reconfiguring, no problem. To be raising flaps during a high speed roll out, again, engrains bad habits.

What you don't want to do is be in a position where you are embedding bad habits.

 

[tmo]

31 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

To be raising flaps during a high speed roll out, again, engrains bad habits.

Shouldn't we be raising flaps as soon as we reasonably can after touchdown anyway? More grip on wheels and whatnot.

[Nick Pilotte]

If I need to work through this with a CFI please let me know.  I was taught to raise flaps for short field but anything else, minimize configuration changes until off the runway.  That all said, I do touch and goes occasionally but I am not particularly fond of them for the reason that it is unrealistic. A go-around is typically not done once a plane has settled to the ground like in the case of a touch and go.  In a bounced landing, the plane is still too fast to settle, so you have a few more knots of airspeed to work with.  I also don’t like (maybe I need some more long body time) trimming for a hands off landing as mentioned because it makes retrimming for a go-around take even more time while applying power and bringing g the gear up (if that’s on the procedure list, personally, I’d prefer to leave it down if I’m re-entering the pattern).

Again, if you feel I have deficiencies in my thoughts or processes, let me know and I’ll get with a CFI.  Heck, I’m flying with one tonight. 

[steingar]

I raise the flaps after I touch down.  Like the man said, transfers more weight to the wheels.  Might not be so sanguine about doing it were I worried about accidentally raising the gear, but I don't think I'll accidentally move the Johnson bar.

[jetdriven]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

Sounds like practice or training of any kind should be avoided, because it always creates opportunities for mistakes to be made.

No, because not all operations have the same risk. It’s the same reason I won’t teach runway turn backs, single-engine go arounds in twins, touch and go’s in twins for that matter,  Pulling the power back below 500’ to simulate an engine failure etc.  A lot can be learned from discussion, and a lot can be learned from doing things with altitude, but some things end up as accidents.  Most of it is the same reason like the bonanza proficiency clinics don’t do touch and goes. You do you

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

No, because not all operations have the same risk. It’s the same reason I won’t teach runway turn backs, single-engine go arounds in twins, touch and go’s in twins for that matter,  Pulling the power back below 500’ to simulate an engine failure etc.  A lot can be learned from discussion, and a lot can be learned from doing things with altitude, but some things end up as accidents.  Most of it is the same reason like the bonanza proficiency clinics don’t do touch and goes. You do you

EXACTLY!   There is always a risk/benefit analysis and the risk tolerance of the individual comes into play.   For many/most a TnG does not represent sufficient risk to negate the benefit of the practice/training and the additional landing and takeoff cycles that can be performed in a shorter amount of time.    For people who do not have the confidence/ability/coordination/whatever and their risk tolerance makes them uncomfortable with it, then don't do it.

This same analysis happens with all different kinds of training, some of which you mention, and we all know examples of incidents when things went very wrong from seemingly mundane tasks.   Does this mean you shouldn't do those things or train for them?   Is there really any training environment, other than a simulator, that is 100% safe?   (No, there is not.)  The very, very large number of successful TnGs in very complex aircraft suggests that it is not a big problem, but given that there are simple alternatives, it is not a big deal for people with lower risk tolerance to do something else.

I learned to fly out of a 2200' field and we, and everybody else, routinely did touch-and-gos there, comfortably.  I'd honestly never heard of touch-and-gos being considered such an issue until I bought a Mooney and came to this site.   It's weird.   I've yet to understand what's different about a Mooney that makes the tradeoff so different for these airplanes, but that's just me.

 

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I learned to fly out of a 2200' field and we, and everybody else, routinely did touch-and-gos there, comfortably.  I'd honestly never heard of touch-and-gos being considered such an issue until I bought a Mooney and came to this site.   It's weird.   I've yet to understand what's different about a Mooney that makes the tradeoff so different for these airplanes, but that's just me.

Yeah, me too. I learned at an obstructed 3000' field, no TnG's allowed by the flight school but a local did them regularly in a Comanche 250.

what makes Mooneys so different is lack of speed control on final--every 1 mph too fast adds 100' of float to the landing, so there goes 1000' of runway. Forcing the plane down leads to bounces, which can become a prop strike if not correctly promptly and correctly. How slow is the electric trim? Mine is manual . . . I hold the throttle to idle and reach out one finger to retract the flaps, crank the trim wheel a couple of time and push the throttle forward, lift off and raise gear, then correct the trim as needed. Put a large, heavy Continental out front, add slow electric trim and oodles of horsepower, it will be a completely different experience.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is one of those topics where the arguments tend to get a bit silly. It's really simple. The recommendation comes from a history of insurance claims involving inadvertent gear-ups in various makes and models combined with a pretty elementary cross-aircraft risk analysis involving (a) the benefit of retracting the flaps, (b) the cost of inadvertent retraction and the (c) the likeihood of making a mistake. 

Perhaps obviously, if you are landing on a runway at or near the minimum requirements, there is a benefit to retracting the flaps. If there is a clear separation of the flap and gear controls, the likelihood of a mistake decreases. Then there are situational factors which affect the  likelihood of error. Do you fly the same airplane every day or do you switch among makes and models? The risk associated with a touch & go is probably higher than a full stop landing.

Mooneys are a good example. Whether an early J-bar or a later electric with the gear at the top of the glareshield and the flap handle  at the bottom, there's some good separation to reduce the risk. Others do that too. The Cutlass, for many the first exposure to a retract, has a gear handle which looks like a gear, a flap handle which look like a flap, and the two are widely separated by the 4-control power quadrant. 

Nevertheless, pilots  manage to make the mistake, don't they? Even during training under the watchful eye of a CFI. Even  two-pilot professorial crews.

We all make our own evaluation, as we do every time we fly, of the risk, the benefit, and how much risk we are willing to accept. You make yours, I make mine. 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[Bentonck]

Well, I went out yesterday and flew over to the local 5000' RWY to practice landings after watching the  @Fly_M20R video ... I had not been as smooth as I would have liked and after watching his vid I felt like there were a couple of things to work on...so my session notes on doing TGL's in a long body Mooney are as follows:

1) Yes, if you put in full flaps, GET THOSE THINGS UP before you hit the throttle.

2) The Acclaim has a hell of an acceleration kick once it gets past about 25" of manifold on the go-around.....see #1 and get it done before #2 happens

3) If you forget to put up the gear or the flaps, you will find out before turning downwind, I promise.

4) The electric trim is useless and you CANNOT SPIN THAT WHEEL FAST ENOUGH if you do ignore #1, and you'll have your hands full even if you don't.

5) Throttle pull has to happen before you level out or the thing accelerates and you'll be doing your base leg a mile past the runway ...

6) It's just as fun in a Mooney as any other thing...

I had a blast doing TGL's and after one initial timid pull and flat landing I was able to nail it.  I tried to wheelie down the runway on my last one but I had dropped too much speed and couldn't keep the front end up....that will have to wait for the next session.  I understand that if you had more than one airplane and could do TGL's in a Cessna that might be easier, but you fly what ya got and I have a Mooney....if I want to do TGL's, that's what we're doing them in... I really enjoyed M20R's video and picked up a few things, I immediately noticed my flare angle was just too shallow, got that fixed and everything else came right together.

 

[Shadrach]

I’ve been doing T and Gs in my F for decades. However, in my bird, the likely good of mistaking the Johnson Bar for the flap release is non existent. More conventional setups make it easier to make a mistake.  Are there Many benefits to be gained by doing T&Gs as opposed to full stop? Probably not many. The biggest benefits I can think of are that 1)  you’ll learn that the airplane is relatively easy to reconfigure for take off and climb if needed and 2) you’ll see how easily they can be performed which may perhaps prevent you from being the kind of guy that doesn’t do them but is always the first to pontificate about how challenging and dangerous there are.

T and Gs are not especially difficult nor challenging. That does not mean aren’t risky. Indeed insurance stats suggest that they are...

Edited August 27, 2020 by Shadrach

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Are there Many benefits to be gained by doing T&Gs as opposed to full stop

They are efficient. Less time. That's the only one I can think of.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

They are efficient. Less time. That's the only one I can think of.

TnG also save Pilot-ATC Tower (or Ground) clearances on controlled runways (full stop, backtrack or exit runway)
If it's +6000ft uncontrolled runway, why not "3 TnG in one go" ? 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Ibra

[gsxrpilot]

34 minutes ago, Ibra said:

TnG also save Pilot-ATC Tower (or Ground) clearances on controlled runways (full stop, backtrack or exit runway)
If it's +6000ft uncontrolled runway, why not "3 TnG in one go" ? 

There's also no breaking involved in most TnG's. 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Are there Many benefits to be gained by doing T&Gs as opposed to full stop? 

In addition to what you cited, which I agree with:

You can do more t/o and land cycles in an hour, so it is more efficient and beneficial for training.

It's potentially easier on the airplane since no braking is involved and the energy reduction is minimized.

Reduces back-taxiing on smaller fields, so probably safer that way.

Reduces taxiway congestion on busier fields.

Increases experience reconfiguring, e.g., for go-arounds, rejected landing.

I can think of a lot more, actually.

 

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

The Cutlass, for many the first exposure to a retract, has a gear handle which looks like a gear, a flap handle which look like a flap, and thw two are widely separated y the 4-control power quadrant. 

The gear switch is required by FAR to be shaped like a wheel.   Usually the flap switch is a toggle shaped like a flap.    Mooneys are also configured better for this task than many airplanes, with the gear switch in the near side of the top of the glare shield in plain view of the pilot and the flap switch at the bottom on the far side of the engine controls.    I'd think the people who are worried about confusing those two should not pull back the throttle near the ground because of the risk of grabbing the mixture by mistake.