Overhauls continued

[rotorman]

For some reason my thread entitled Overhauls in WA or OR was taken down and when I select notifications button and select a thread I get a screen that says I am not allowed to view it. Who knows.

Anyway, I have been talking with an overhaul shop in Kamloops CA called Pro Aero. Nice guys and I think they have been around a while. Anyone have any experience with their engine overhauls?

Nick

[carusoam]

Only the OP can erase his own thread...

That has happened a couple of times around here...

It is highly unlikely to get one erased or taken down...

Typically if politics enters a thread... it gets locked.... no data gets destroyed...

Foul language, or pics or other improper posts may cause things to be tossed....

MS doesn’t have much for a police force or editing team...

Self policed... plenty of people will push the report button... for something offensive...

PP thoughts only, not a web manager...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, rotorman said:

For some reason my thread entitled Overhauls in WA or OR was taken down and when I select notifications button and select a thread I get a screen that says I am not allowed to view it. Who knows.

Anyway, I have been talking with an overhaul shop in Kamloops CA called Pro Aero. Nice guys and I think they have been around a while. Anyone have any experience with their engine overhauls?

Nick

Too bad, I liked your old thread!

Did Western Skyways ever get a quote to you?  Did it include DLC lifters?

[Guest]

14 hours ago, rotorman said:

For some reason my thread entitled Overhauls in WA or OR was taken down and when I select notifications button and select a thread I get a screen that says I am not allowed to view it. Who knows.

Anyway, I have been talking with an overhaul shop in Kamloops CA called Pro Aero. Nice guys and I think they have been around a while. Anyone have any experience with their engine overhauls?

Nick

Pro Aero has been around for a long time and has always had a good reputation for building good engines and doing quality work. Their home built division Aerosport Power has a good reputation among RV builders.  Being as they are close to you, I would consider them.

Clarence

[Yetti]

I have never had skin thin enough to push the report button.  I have noted that some people have blocked me.  We should all learn to be less offended.

[rotorman]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Only the OP can erase his own thread...

That has happened a couple of times around here...

It is highly unlikely to get one erased or taken down...

Typically if politics enters a thread... it gets locked.... no data gets destroyed...

Foul language, or pics or other improper posts may cause things to be tossed....

MS doesn’t have much for a police force or editing team...

Self policed... plenty of people will push the report button... for something offensive...

PP thoughts only, not a web manager...

Best regards,

-a-

Good chance this is what happened. I have to admit I am having some problems navigating this site. Is there an instructions somewhere?

Edited June 18, 2020 by rotorman

[rotorman]

10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Too bad, I liked your old thread!

Did Western Skyways ever get a quote to you?  Did it include DLC lifters?

Western Skyways quoted 28.7k with overhauled cylinders for the IO360 A3B6.  4.8k more with Lycoming cylinders making it 33.5k. Add the other bits need to make this conversion work and it would end up at more than 35k.  No special coating on the lifters was mentioned. Only gold cadmium plating on all engine hardware. The quote from Pro Aero for the IO360 A3B6D (they cannot provide an IO360 A3B6) is 25k with Titan cylinders and 26.7k with Lycombings cylinders. No cadmium plating mentioned. If there is equivalency in the quality of these two engines it looks to me that unless other shops have a lower prices for the the premium for the A3B6 8 to 9k.

 

 

5 minutes ago, rotorman said:

 

[ArtVandelay]

If overhauling cylinders, I’d expect new lifters, valves, guides are standard.

[RobertGary1]

I’ve had several pilots tell me that going with overhauled cylinders is something they regret. That’s antidotal. Have those here who have installed a lot of these engines found issues with overhauled cylinders?

 

-Robert 

[drapo]

When I did my overhaul, I was given the choice of new Lycoming cylinders, overhauling my 1970´s first run cylinders( +/- 1500SNEW)  or 2010’s 500SNEW out of a IO540 from a R44 Raven ll that was getting  a new engine, I chose the latter and everything is fine after 60hrs and stable oil consumption (15hrs/qt) after first oil change (Mineral 100 to Pillips66 20w50).

The Overhaul shop (Aero-Atelier CSL3) told me that their inventory for angle valved cylinders is now filled with R44ll´s low time cylinders and that is driving the price of overhauling a IO360A1A down a few thousands. He also only installs new coated camshaft for all Lycoming.

[ArtVandelay]

I’ve had several pilots tell me that going with overhauled cylinders is something they regret. That’s antidotal. Have those here who have installed a lot of these engines found issues with overhauled cylinders?
 
-Robert 

What issues?

I’ve only got 180 hours on mine...talk to me in 10 years.

[rotorman]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Pro Aero has been around for a long time and has always had a good reputation for building good engines and doing quality work. Their home built division Aerosport Power has a good reputation among RV builders.  Being as they are close to you, I would consider them.

Clarence

Thanks for that response. I am tending to use them. I wish they had an A3B6 core. I really would like to go that route. Advanced Aircraft in Troutdale says they have done those before so some of the problems I have read on MS should not be an issue. But Pro Aero's pricing is very attractive. They may have some advantage with the exchange rate.

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

That’s antidotal. 

It might have been spell-check that caused that word to pop up, but I think you were looking for anecdotal (based on personal observation rather than scientific evaluation).

[RobertGary1]

12 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

What issues?

I’ve only got 180 hours on mine...talk to me in 10 years.

Ive heard from several pilots who went with rebuilt cylinders that they needed to do a top overhaul around mid time. But I won’t consider that definitive.  I went with a rebuilt from Lycoming which comes with new cylinders.  
 

-Robert 

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, rotorman said:

Good chance this is what happened. I have to admit I am having some problems navigating this site. Is there an instructions somewhere?

I don’t believe there are any instructions...

If you need help with something, feel free to ask...

By the time you become a great Mooney pilot... it is mandatory to lose certain typing and computer skills.... 

Many of us suffer from the same ailments...

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I’ve had several pilots tell me that going with overhauled cylinders is something they regret. That’s antidotal. Have those here who have installed a lot of these engines found issues with overhauled cylinders?

I really wish the cost of overhauling cylinders was an "antidote" for something  

Edit: Aw heck, @LANCECASPER beat me to it

[carusoam]

Always a question of how much you want to spend...

Factory new cylinders haven’t always been the best answer...

Porting and polishing is that extra step that you want to get...

In the end they go on a flow bench to get matched flows...

If this is your best bird... she deserves the best treatment....  

Then get the GAMI injectors updated to match...

Best regards,

-a-

[rotorman]

After a bit of back and forth I went with Western Skyways for the overhaul. They have a IO 360 A1B6 core in house. With the modification of the propeller flange it easily converts to an A3B6 and is promised to be completed in 4-6 weeks. The timing is pretty good since my annual is due at the end of July at which time I will fly the airplane to Troutdale (TTD). If the engine hasn't arrived they can start the annual . Advanced Aviation says they have done B6D to B6 conversions and say it is no big deal. Hopefully, that is how it will go.

[jaylw314]

33 minutes ago, rotorman said:

After a bit of back and forth I went with Western Skyways for the overhaul. They have a IO 360 A1B6 core in house. With the modification of the propeller flange it easily converts to an A3B6 and is promised to be completed in 4-6 weeks. The timing is pretty good since my annual is due at the end of July at which time I will fly the airplane to Troutdale (TTD). If the engine hasn't arrived they can start the annual . Advanced Aviation says they have done B6D to B6 conversions and say it is no big deal. Hopefully, that is how it will go.

I suspect some of the higher costs for overhauling A3B6's is that many of them are factory rebuilds or new motors that come with roller tappets.  If they are converting an A1B6 to an A3B6, realize that yours will be a little different from many other A3B6's out there.

[rotorman]

26 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I suspect some of the higher costs for overhauling A3B6's is that many of them are factory rebuilds or new motors that come with roller tappets.  If they are converting an A1B6 to an A3B6, realize that yours will be a little different from many other A3B6's out there.

I must admit I don't like the idea of "different". But the difference is so minute that it should not matter. At resale, I could see someone question why this engine is different and reject buying it. Hopefully any serious buyer would ask questions first. The price at Western Sky was the same for this engine as it would have been to rebuild my A3B6D. 

[jaylw314]

52 minutes ago, rotorman said:

I must admit I don't like the idea of "different". But the difference is so minute that it should not matter. At resale, I could see someone question why this engine is different and reject buying it. Hopefully any serious buyer would ask questions first. The price at Western Sky was the same for this engine as it would have been to rebuild my A3B6D. 

It is a minor difference.  It's just good to know if you have a buyer that asks if there are roller tappets installed, because I think some buyers might place a bit of a premium on that.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

It is a minor difference.  It's just good to know if you have a buyer that asks if there are roller tappets installed, because I think some buyers might place a bit of a premium on that.

If it doesn’t have roller tappets, you could still potentially have DLC coated lifters which are rumored to solve the corrosion problem and cam issues as well as roller tappets.

I’m wondering if the DLC is the standard for overhauls now or if you have to specify and pay a premium for them?

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

If it doesn’t have roller tappets, you could still potentially have DLC coated lifters which are rumored to solve the corrosion problem and cam issues as well as roller tappets.

I’m wondering if the DLC is the standard for overhauls now or if you have to specify and pay a premium for them?

I assume they are not an overhaul specification, so think it would almost certainly be a premium.

Granted, I also suspect neither the roller tappets or other modified lifters have accumulated sufficient time to build up any usable data on any difference in reliability or maintenance benefit.

[jetdriven]

On 6/18/2020 at 10:55 AM, rotorman said:

Western Skyways quoted 28.7k with overhauled cylinders for the IO360 A3B6.  4.8k more with Lycoming cylinders making it 33.5k. Add the other bits need to make this conversion work and it would end up at more than 35k.  No special coating on the lifters was mentioned. Only gold cadmium plating on all engine hardware. The quote from Pro Aero for the IO360 A3B6D (they cannot provide an IO360 A3B6) is 25k with Titan cylinders and 26.7k with Lycombings cylinders. No cadmium plating mentioned. If there is equivalency in the quality of these two engines it looks to me that unless other shops have a lower prices for the the premium for the A3B6 8 to 9k.

 

 

That’s the same price as a factory roller motor with two mags. You will most likely get a new case with that too. 

[jetdriven]

40 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I assume they are not an overhaul specification, so think it would almost certainly be a premium.

Granted, I also suspect neither the roller tappets or other modified lifters have accumulated sufficient time to build up any usable data on any difference in reliability or maintenance benefit.

Roller tappets have been standard on most factory overhauls since 2005. That’s 15 years and millions of hours of service.