Stuck for a few hours...need some advice!

[Matt Ward]

Hey everybody,

So my Saturday was pretty eventful and I'd love some help from this group helping me figure out what happened.  I left BJC (Denver, CO) at about 9AM with the plane cranking and running fine - it had last run a week prior.  I flew down to PUB (Pueblo, CO), about a 70 minute flight, the JPI always showed 14V, no electrical challenges, no engine roughness, appropriate CHTs all less than 360, and landed uneventfully.  We went in to get snacks and came back out to leave about 20-30 minutes later.  The plane wouldn't crank.  I was using what I now to believe to be a wrong hot start procedure and I'm sure that contributed to my problems.  I likely flooded the engine as I did see a good bit of gas dripping from the breather tube on the front left low section of the engine compartment. So the engine was probably both heat-soaked and flooded.  After 3-4 times of trying to start it, the prop started turning really, really slowly.  I would get engine coughs the first couple attempts but never a full start.  At this point, it was seeming like the battery was dead because the starter wouldn't effectively turn the prop.  I threw the battery on a 12v charger and let it go for 45 minutes.  That got me another 1-3 attempts at starting.  Same thing: a few coughs, by the third attempt the prop was barely turning.  Another 45 minutes, same thing.  Sometimes turning the ignition wouldn't even turn the prop at all.  Finally I decided to go eat lunch and let the battery fully charge and the plane cool down.  I gave it about 4 hours.  At that time, the battery was showing full charge on the battery charger.  And, the plane had plenty of time to cool down.  The plane cranked fine and I flew home uneventfully.  14V on the JPI, no challenges, etc.

I'm trying to figure out what happened.  Here are some relevant points:

-1966 M20E

-Gill 7035-28 battery, less than 3 years old

-InterAv 015-01237 alternator, about 15 years old

-Skytech PN 149-12LS/M starter, about 17 years old

-PlanePower R1224 voltage regulator, unknown age

-Plane is brand new to me, and to altitude, previously spending its life near sea level (if that matters)

My first move has been to order a new battery, the Concorde with extra cranking amps.  I did that and will install it this week.  I believe the Gill should last longer than this but the prior owner installed it without a logbook entry so I don't know exactly how old it is.  I also don't know if it was serviced at all.  This just seems like an obvious place to start but honestly I'm guessing.  It seemed to me that if the Gill was in good shape I would have gotten more attempts at starting than I did - before the prop started moving so slowly.

But I'm nervous about this happening again.  The first thing I've done is read up on better hot start techniques!  I'm going to work on perfecting those on my home field after every flight.

What do you guys think?  What should I have checked out by my A&P?  What should I do differently next time?  Anything is welcome!

Here is a picture of the saddest Mooney in Pueblo on Saturday...you can almost see her tears.

Thanks in advance!

 

[gsxrpilot]

Hopefully you've got my number in your phone. And if you ever really get stranded, give me a call.

A new Concorde battery is a good call. Secondly, work on your hot start technique. My engine, a turbo Continental, is completely different, but I've found that here at altitude I can't get it to start with the Mixture at full rich. Just something I've learned from living at this altitude.

How was the ride between BJC and PUB? After a couple of bad experiences, I'm really "gun shy" of the MOD Turbulence forecast.

[Matt Ward]

BJC to PUB and back was fantastic!  We had to wait out the TS and then it was great.  In fact, on the way to PUB we were on with Springs Approach just as Air Force Two was on with Approach.  They passed off our right wing which was really cool to see.  Coming back into BJC they cleared us through the Bravo over the city, but wouldn't allow a touch & go at DIA, and for a straight-in on 30R.  My son took this picture on final. 

[RLCarter]

Hot Starts is what started your problem, work on that. Quick charging generally works if the battery is the only issue, you had a heat soaked flooded engine and a low battery, it was time to walk away and go have lunch 

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Matt Ward said:

BJC to PUB and back was fantastic!  We had to wait out the TS and then it was great.  In fact, on the way to PUB we were on with Springs Approach just as Air Force Two was on with Approach.  They passed off our right wing which was really cool to see.  Coming back into BJC they cleared us through the Bravo over the city, but wouldn't allow a touch & go at DIA, and for a straight-in on 30R.  My son took this picture on final. 

That is a great picture!

[Matt Ward]

Regarding hot starts, this is what I'm using now:

http://mooneypilots.com/mapalog/HOT STARTS.htm

But I notice that is for an IO-360-A1D while I have an IO-360-A1A (with Slicks).  

Any reason that hot start procedure wouldn't still be best for me?

Thanks!

[carusoam]

Matt,

Hot starts have...

• science that makes them necessary...
• knowledge that is your best defense...
• procedures that make this easier...

 

We generally have three four engine conditions to apply a proper procedure for...

• normal start
• cold start
• hot start
• Flooded start

The engine’s condition Is sometimes in between... or unknown... 

When this is the case... you can always try one... if it works, great!
If it doesn’t, flood the engine intentionally... go right on to the flooded engine start...

 

It is important to know...

• The science...
• fuel evaporation rates
• fuel air mixture that works
• how/when to use the mixture knob
• More fuel isn’t always beneficial...

 

What makes things very difficult...

• not being able to understand the engines condition

 

Things go wrong in several ways...

• You can kill a gill lead/acid battery pretty easily...  just by running it down.
• you can overheat a starter really easily... not good for their health...  just by continuing to use it without time to cool.
• you can light the whole thing on fire with fuel pouring on the nose wheel...

 

Find the start procedures for your engine, not somebody else’s....

They all have the same science behind them...

Just their hardware is completely different... in the important area...

 

With snow all over the place... a hot start probably wasn’t required...

With altitude... full rich probably was a bad idea...

with the engine being warm... giving it any fuel by priming it was not a very good idea...

Priming it enough to see it run out the bottom is the sign of performing a very cold start... like 20°F cold...
 

The M20C’s primer pump...when working properly may be 2-3 pumps for ordinary starts...

 

Then there is what you can learn... each engine changes / wears slowly over time...

Getting to know your engine...  take notes!

Write down what works, what the conditions were...

 

There is no electronic ignition, or OAT or MAF sensors...  you get to be all of these devices... 

 

if you can’t find the right procedures... ask somebody that has your engine...  what do they use?

 

Looks like...

• it was a warm engine, not hot...
• you flooded it...
• continued to try procedures that weren’t the flooded start technique...
• ran the battery down...
• came back a few hours later, it starts like normal...

Find the four procedures...

learn to use them...

learn how to adjust them...

Then look for improvements...

• Concorde
• Skytech
• Electronic mag

 

While you can...  check what is old in the logs... batteries, starters, mags, Shower of Sparks... are all required for good starts...

 

You have done well so far...

Just a bit more. To go...

Best regards,

-a-

[Tim Jodice]

51 minutes ago, Matt Ward said:

My first move has been to order a new battery, the Concorde with extra cranking amps.

 

RG35AXC! I had a gill that was 4 years old I replaced it because one day I was playing with the avionics for about 15 at most 20 min. When I tried to start it (cold) it didn't make over one compression stroke.

At the time I had owned the airplane about a month and didn't think much about the crank speed. After replacing the battery it was amazing how fast it cranked over! I was glad it happened the way it did. An alt failure in the air with only an hour of reserve would have be an unwelcome surprise. 

For fun hook a battery through an ammeter to the external power of the airplane and turned everything on except the pitot heat. It used about 14 amps. With everything off except the 430 I fully charged the gill then hooked it to a 150W landing light. It took only 35 min to bring it down to 10 volts. I didn't do the real test to the new battery but based on the specs on Concorde's website it would last about 2 hours with no load shedding. With everything off except for the 430 and turn coordinator it used 6 amps. Now you have almost 5 hours before your out of power.

[drapo]

1 hour ago, Matt Ward said:

I'm trying to figure out what happened.  Here are some relevant points:

-1966 M20E

-Gill 7035-28 battery, less than 3 years old

-InterAv 015-01237 alternator, about 15 years old

-Skytech PN 149-12LS/M starter, about 17 years old

-PlanePower R1224 voltage regulator, unknown age

-Plane is brand new to me, and to altitude, previously spending its life near sea level (if that matters)

 

I was in that position about 10 yrs ago, when I started learning the differences between a PA28-140 and a M20E. For sure, at first you were facing a Hot start procedure. There are few recipes that work But I always refer people to Don Maxwell’s youtube video.

Looking at your setup, you have two weak links:

1- Good thing you’re replacing the Gil with a Concorde XC, mine is 10 yrs old and still cranking the IO360A1A even during the Canadian winter months without recharging it.

2- Skytech recommends the 149-12-NL for our big bore engines, so this could also have something to do with your starting problems.

One last thing, if fuel is dripping, you are flooded and should go ahead with the flooded procedure, so full throttle, mixture cut-off, when engine engages, be ready to reduce throttle and add mixture.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Matt Ward said:

Hey everybody,

So my Saturday was pretty eventful and I'd love some help from this group helping me figure out what happened.  I left BJC (Denver, CO) at about 9AM with the plane cranking and running fine - it had last run a week prior.  I flew down to PUB (Pueblo, CO), about a 70 minute flight, the JPI always showed 14V, no electrical challenges, no engine roughness, appropriate CHTs all less than 360, and landed uneventfully.  We went in to get snacks and came back out to leave about 20-30 minutes later.  The plane wouldn't crank.  I was using what I now to believe to be a wrong hot start procedure and I'm sure that contributed to my problems.  I likely flooded the engine as I did see a good bit of gas dripping from the breather tube on the front left low section of the engine compartment. So the engine was probably both heat-soaked and flooded.  After 3-4 times of trying to start it, the prop started turning really, really slowly.  I would get engine coughs the first couple attempts but never a full start.  At this point, it was seeming like the battery was dead because the starter wouldn't effectively turn the prop.  I threw the battery on a 12v charger and let it go for 45 minutes.  That got me another 1-3 attempts at starting.  Same thing: a few coughs, by the third attempt the prop was barely turning.  Another 45 minutes, same thing.  Sometimes turning the ignition wouldn't even turn the prop at all.  Finally I decided to go eat lunch and let the battery fully charge and the plane cool down.  I gave it about 4 hours.  At that time, the battery was showing full charge on the battery charger.  And, the plane had plenty of time to cool down.  The plane cranked fine and I flew home uneventfully.  14V on the JPI, no challenges, etc.

I'm trying to figure out what happened.  Here are some relevant points:

-1966 M20E

-Gill 7035-28 battery, less than 3 years old

-InterAv 015-01237 alternator, about 15 years old

-Skytech PN 149-12LS/M starter, about 17 years old

-PlanePower R1224 voltage regulator, unknown age

-Plane is brand new to me, and to altitude, previously spending its life near sea level (if that matters)

My first move has been to order a new battery, the Concorde with extra cranking amps.  I did that and will install it this week.  I believe the Gill should last longer than this but the prior owner installed it without a logbook entry so I don't know exactly how old it is.  I also don't know if it was serviced at all.  This just seems like an obvious place to start but honestly I'm guessing.  It seemed to me that if the Gill was in good shape I would have gotten more attempts at starting than I did - before the prop started moving so slowly.

But I'm nervous about this happening again.  The first thing I've done is read up on better hot start techniques!  I'm going to work on perfecting those on my home field after every flight.

What do you guys think?  What should I have checked out by my A&P?  What should I do differently next time?  Anything is welcome!

Here is a picture of the saddest Mooney in Pueblo on Saturday...you can almost see her tears.

Thanks in advance!

 

While not necessarily a starter issue, SkyTec trouble shooting guide might be helpful.  Aside from battery replacement I would check and clean all cable terminals from the battery to the starter motor, check the battery ground cable at both ends, as well as the engine ground cable from the propeller governor pad to the ground point on the co-pilots foot well.

https://skytec.aero/aircraft-starter-performance-issues/
 

Clarence

[Yetti]

Hot start.

Shut down with mixture RPM 1100.

To start:

Do not touch anything.  No elect fuel pump.   No changing of mixture or throttle.

Turn key and crank.   It will pop slowly move mixture forward.

 

Flooded start:  Where you were.  How you tell: it pops you move the mixture forward and it dies.

Mixture off

Open throttle full.

Be ready to do the two handed dance on the throttle and mixture.

Crank.

Pop - Bring the throttle back quickly while slowing adding mixture.

 

Cold start:

Throttle 1" open.  

Elect fuel pump on.

Open mixture Full

Count to 6

Close mixture.

Crank

Pop - advance mixture -  I actually only go to about 1/3 mixture.   Which is pretty lean.

back throttle to 1100-1200 RPM

 

[Ross Taylor]

+1 on the Concorde - that's what I put in our '66 E and it's great.  And, as to your question about coming from sea level to altitude, that shouldn't be a factor for the IO-360.  FYI, we're within 200 feet of 7000 here and routinely see density altitudes of 9000 or even over 10k.  

[Ragsf15e]

So it’s pretty rare, but if you flood it good enough, the engine is pretty hard to turn over with the starter (or even pull through by hand) especially with a questionable battery.

We all did something like this the first time we hot started our injected engine, so you’re not alone.

Yettis technique above is solid.  Here’s rule #1. always assume it’s a hot start unless proven otherwise.  

If it’s only been shutdown 30 minutes, it’s definitely a hot start.  But what about 2 hours?  Refer to rule #1.  If you left it overnight?  Ok, prime it for a cold start.  But if it’s flown this day, hot start.  If you do a hot start and it doesn’t start, you can still prime it and do a normal start or a flooded start.  However, if you try a normal start with prime first, you can’t go back to a hot start.

A hot start should fire maybe 1 or 2 seconds after a normal start would.  Don’t burn up your starter, but go ahead and crank it a few turns.

[Matt Ward]

Thanks everyone for all the insight! 

[Htwjr]

Looks like Clark Griswald parked that plane. 

[moonlighting7]

I agree with Yetti!   I fly 1966 M20E based Kapa.  My only difference:

 hot start is any start after engine has run in the previous 4-6 hours... 

but hot start for me...

I crack throttle 1/2-1” mix full back NO FUEL PUMP... crank till pop then start feeding mixture till she runs.

 Hot starts we’re the worst thing to figure out for my bird... but like you i got info here and it worked!

 

[prflyer]

I own a 65 M20E, and essentially follow the procedures outlined by Yetti and moonlighting 7.

Before shut down, I leave and set the RPM at least at 1200, and then pull mixture out.

On hot start, touch nothing -- no fuel pump, no mixture, no throttle -- and crank. As blades start moving I slowly push mixture in.  Starts every time.

And yes, I use hot start procedure even after an hour or two on the ramp.

Fernando 

[The Other Red Baron]

On 4/22/2020 at 11:27 AM, prflyer said:

I own a 65 M20E, and essentially follow the procedures outlined by Yetti and moonlighting 7.

Before shut down, I leave and set the RPM at least at 1200, and then pull mixture out.

On hot start, touch nothing -- no fuel pump, no mixture, no throttle -- and crank. As blades start moving I slowly push mixture in.  Starts every time.

And yes, I use hot start procedure even after an hour or two on the ramp.

Fernando 

 

I was surprised how long after being shutdown I would still need to use the hotstart procedure.  Glad I'm not an anomaly. 

[Ross Taylor]

24 minutes ago, The Other Red Baron said:

I was surprised how long after being shutdown I would still need to use the hotstart procedure.  Glad I'm not an anomaly. 

You're definitely not!

On a follow-up note related to my jumper cable/plug assembly, by the way.  I believe I've heard Mike Busch say that getting an engine start through the jump port, then letting the engine's alternator charge the low/dead battery, charges so quickly that it can damage a battery.  I don't know for a fact that this is the case...but, last year when I picked up our new '66 E the battery was too discharged to crank (at least it was after about 10 minutes of checking bulbs and lighting).  I got a jump from a cart and immediately flew off into the sunset.  Fast forward 2 months and that 2017-dated Concorde failed.  I have no idea whether that incident really did damage the battery or if it had been previously neglected.  Now, I've got a Concorde-specific BatteryMINDer charger in the hanger and I only plan to use those jumper cables if we're well and truly stuck somewhere.  To help avoid that, I also carry a 12W PowerFilm charger when we're going to a strip without services (we like to camp).   BTW, I highly recommend the PowerFilm folding chargers...I like them so much I got one for my wife and my son, too...and with the USB charger they're great for camping...very well-built products.