Ceramic Coating?

[EricJ]

34 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I have no idea what is in C2V3 but for $30 bucks I love it.  Its fantastic.  EASY to apply and the results are head and shoulders above anything I have ever used before.  Since it is inexpensive and results are great - now 3 months on it still looks great - even if its only good for 3 moths it is well worth it.  If it last longer than all the better.

Yeah I have always figured its not ceramic as in "crystallinity of ceramic materials ranges from highly oriented to semi-crystalline, vitrified, and often completely amorphous " like actual glass.  I don't care.  I always figured it is some kind of polymer more like a epoxy.  Saying, oh its sealant is entirely not a descriptive term.  I could put white calk all over my airplane and call it sealant.  C2V3 goes on smooth, wipes on wipes off, and leaves an absolutely deep and clear and smoooooth finish and is absurdly easy to use and so far showing at least good to excellent durability - and we shall see how long it really lasts.  But so far its lasted long enough that I would do it again even if I needed to re-apply every 3 months.

This is my experience as well.   I even bought a $50 bottle of their C1 stuff and used it when I restored the finish on the hood of my truck.   The C2V3 stuff is awesome for how easy it is to use and apply and how much difference it makes in the appearance.   If it's sealant, it's a really good one and reasonably priced for what you get.

The C1 takes more time to apply and to my eye the appearance results aren't much different than the C2V3.   A golden eye can probably tell.   My truck sits outside in the AZ sun, so I thought it'd be a reasonable experiment to see how long it lasts.   Usually the sun here will erode a good top finish in a few months to where the water beading is noticeably affected.   I put it on in April and it still looks fresh, but it's too early to tell whether it does any better than the synthetic waxes I usually use.

In any case, the C2V3 is much less expensive than the C1 and much easier to apply.   For a hangared airplane this seems like a no-brainer to me.

[WilliamR]

Awhile back, I had a couple different products (some sealants, a true ceramic coating, ceramic wax, and some very high quality synthetic wax) laying around.  I put a dab of each on a old desk and let sit for a week in a very hot hangar.  The true ceramic turned to glass and was harder than any of the other products with synthetic wax being the softest.  Not scientific, but was enough to convince me.  Is a true ceramic coating exactly 9H in hardness.  Damned if I know, but it is harder than anything else I've used. 

I also noticed some detailers advertise a ceramic wax as a ceramic coating.  There is a huge difference between a ceramic wax and a true ceramic coating.  Caveat emptor.  Fortunately, the manufacturers are very clear on the differences in durability. 

William

[tls pilot]

Just wondering...

While the C2V3 appears to be the one to use

What makes it different than Mothers at $17.23 at Walmart or an auto store?

https://mothers.com/products/cmx-ceramic-spray-coating-01024

or any of these tested and top rated sprays? Which are less than the Mothers cost above...

https://www.autoguide.com/top-10-best-ceramic-coatings-and-detailing-products

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, tls pilot said:

Just wondering...

While the C2V3 appears to be the one to use

What makes it different than Mothers at $17.23 at Walmart or an auto store?

https://mothers.com/products/cmx-ceramic-spray-coating-01024

or any of these tested and top rated sprays? Which are less than the Mothers cost above...

https://www.autoguide.com/top-10-best-ceramic-coatings-and-detailing-products

The difference is C2V3 is fantastic amazing.  Mothers is meh.

Its like the difference between a fine aged cheddar cheese and cheez whiz.  The difference between chateau Rothschild and box red wine.

[carusoam]

Find the video...

It could be the chemistry...

Or... it might be the procedure...

But...

The guy going to the level of paint correction... uses the one product for a reason...

If using Maguires... think of all the money you can save...

I used Maguires annually... It looks nice... gives a good work out...

Won’t win any awards...

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F-1968]

I was distracted from the cosmetic stuff as I had get the plane through annual and work on some other small issues that were lingering.  I was introduced to an Aviation product called "Tough Guard" which is a nano coating with some aviation specs.  An excellent pain shop in NJ has tried it and liked the results.  Then there is Gtechniq C2V3, C1, Crystal light which are really not aviation products.  One concern I have is that all of these products bond covalently (or in other ways) to the paint.  Does this present any implications should an area need to be repainted?  Just trying to get the big picture and get my head around how to evaluate this stuff?

John Breda

[steingar]

The other evening I applied a do-it-yourself ceramic sealant from Plane Perfect.  It was relatively inexpensive (that stuff can get pricey indeed!) and wen ton pretty easily, especially when I involved my polisher.  The airplane was already pretty shiny, so I didn't notice that big a difference.  But stuff is sliding off it far better, so I think the stuff is working.  I'm going to apply another coat this weekend, mostly to use the stuff up.  We'll see how she does when I take her flying.

[carusoam]

45 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

One concern I have is that all of these products bond covalently (or in other ways) to the paint. 

John Breda

Doc John,

I don’t believe there is any bond, covalent or ionic, to the substrate itself... that would require a chemical reaction...

That would be even more permanent than a clear coat of paint...

Most coatings we use, like paint... Requires the solvent to dry, or evaporate out... still no chemical bond to the existing layer of paint... just a very strong physical adhesion...

 

Each product must have some guidance for proper removal...  or even an explanation of how it adheres so well...

Expect that each of these materials has some level of solvent used as a carrier.

That solvent is both safe for the paint, and safely solubilizes the coating...

It might even be a common easy to find solvent...

Just not water, or 100LL...

If we wanted to coat the surface in a thin coating of polymer, use acrylic as an example.... there would be a chemical reaction bonding all the COATING molecules together... there still wouldn’t be anything other than a physical connection to the substrate... at the molecular level.... That would require lots of temperature control to have the reaction work in a timely fashion... 

It would be much easier to use an acrylic Based paint, and let it dry... 

As far as prepping the surface to repaint an area...expect that we would use a light sanding for prep... this gives the surface some roughness.... to improve the adhesion between layers...

There is probably instructions with each of these coatings on how best to handle that as well...

PP thoughts only, not a chemist... All stuff I learned from film strips at my local CPC...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Most coatings we use, like paint... Requires the solvent to dry, or evaporate out... still no chemical bond to the existing layer of paint... just a very strong physical adhesion...

PP thoughts only, not a chemist... 

I’m sure not a chemist, but there are 2 different ways paints bond to the previous coat. The best is a chemical bond where the current coat is applied over the previous during a specific time frame, if that time frame can’t be met then there is a time frame you have to wait before continuing and then it becomes more of a mechanical bond. When touching up an area you can add more reducer (mixing hot) which will soften the old paint giving it a chemical bond, but care has to be taken to avoid runs due to being very thin (watery) and in some cases it will lift the old paint (wrinkle). My guess is the ceramic stuff is a mechanical bond, but like my opening statement says, I’m sure not a chemist

[aviatoreb]

I just put another coat of this Gtechniq stuff before the winter cold hits - shine has remained fantastic since I applied it in April - so far good durability for a cheap and easy wax-whateveritis - anyway since it is so easy and cheap to do I figured what the heck one more coat.  And WOW - one more coat and it truly went frame amazing fantastic to extra amazing fantastic.

I need a better camera - the photos just aren't doing it justice.  The shine is out of this world.

[M20F-1968]

I have the one piece belly panel off now and was going to do a waterless was and then coat with Gtechniq C2V3 so it would hopefully be easier to keep clean.  I assume that is a reasonable plan.  Any comments?

John Breda

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, M20F-1968 said:

I have the one piece belly panel off now and was going to do a waterless was and then coat with Gtechniq C2V3 so it would hopefully be easier to keep clean.  I assume that is a reasonable plan.  Any comments?

John Breda

John, really clean and clay bar it prior to putting on the c2v3. It will entrap any dirt, imperfections etc. Its all about the prep. The c2v3 (or other full ceramic) is the easy part. The prep is where the work is.

[aviatoreb]

35 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

John, really clean and clay bar it prior to putting on the c2v3. It will entrap any dirt, imperfections etc. Its all about the prep. The c2v3 (or other full ceramic) is the easy part. The prep is where the work is.

True - it’s why putting a second coat c2v3 was so quick and easy - like an hour.

[jonhop]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:16 AM, Rmag said:

I’m generally a big fan of the stuff, but the big downside is you can not use touch up paint without sanding it off.

Thanks @Rmag for your experience. The problem I have with special coatings like Ceramic Pro, is that you can't order it, as a normal car, boat, or aircraft owner, unless you go through some kind of special training.

I'm just looking to protect my J's paint / exterior as much as possible without having to spend 2 to 3 AMU's for training and paint correction on 35 year old paint that's still in somewhat good condition.

I've received several complements on its condition, so I'm thankful for its previous owners in that regard. In preparation for ceramic coating--or sealing--my J at annual next month, I practiced on my other vehicles.

I washed, clay barred, and applied C2v3 to my 2011 335i convertible this summer in preparation for a graduation drive-through ceremony--THANKS COVID! Cleaning included the wheels, and all I can say is wow! Minor scratches disappeared. It rained while we were taking after-graduation pictures. The beads were huge and the extended family commented on how the car looked. The car just rinses off, including the wheels, today. For the wheels, that's huge given the soft compound brakes BMW's use.

I washed, clay barred, and applied C2v3 to my 2003 F-150 roof after noticing some rust. Time will tell with this one... but I also washed the windshield and OMG, it is super clean as compared to the rest of the truck, while sitting outdoors in a desert--F70. The rest of the truck awaits...

For the J, I did clay bar and seal the top of my J's cowling after witnessing the aforementioned results. I found the 35 year old paint does require some polishing, as the top of my cowling took a lot of work and is only shiny in one spot. At least it is sealed now with something that lasts better than normal wax...

Bottom line here is that I desire the most protective coating available. Too bad some product owners think that some consumers are not smart enough to read directions and apply.

Edited November 15, 2020 by jonhop

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, jonhop said:

The problem I have with special coatings like Ceramic Pro, is that you can't order it, as a normal car, boat, or aircraft owner, unless you go through some kind of special training

yea, kind of like being able to order and install Garmin products. They tend to be 1) picky about who and 2) want to protect their distribution base and 3) insure they are not flooded with bogus warranty issues like the ceramic guys would be when Mr. Leg and his son Jack Jr start putting on a darn near forever coating over paint swirls and then not being able to get them resolved. Im ok with them having their trained techs being the only ones who can purchase and apply the good stuff. They earn their $

[takair]

I’ve been in an un-insulated, coastal hangar for the past year.  In the past few months I’ve noticed that the white paint has significant water marks.  It seems consistent with dew dripping off the rafters.  I covered over parts of the ceiling with tarps, and that has helped the drip marks, but I’m still getting significant hazing of the whit paint....vs the blue trim.  The water staining just makes it worse.

So, planning for the warmer weather....what to do about the paint.  I’ve tried washing, waxing, clay bar and hand polishing the water marks...but it seems it is etched in the paint.  Is the C2V3 a shortcut to machine cutting/polishing?  My guess is that there is no way to recover the paint but to cut, polish, C2V3?  

Anybody have experience with these “deep” water marks?  I’ve never quite seen anything like this...

 

[Danb]

I had these nasty marks all over the plane after being outside in Florida for a few days suspect acid rain? Anyway I couldn’t get them off by hand polish or compound so used the machine, clay bar then two coats of ceramic, has looked like new since, I apply a coat of ceramic once or twice yearly as Erik mentioned every coat gets easier.

[aviatoreb]

On 1/2/2021 at 1:59 PM, takair said:

I’ve been in an un-insulated, coastal hangar for the past year.  In the past few months I’ve noticed that the white paint has significant water marks.  It seems consistent with dew dripping off the rafters.  I covered over parts of the ceiling with tarps, and that has helped the drip marks, but I’m still getting significant hazing of the whit paint....vs the blue trim.  The water staining just makes it worse.

So, planning for the warmer weather....what to do about the paint.  I’ve tried washing, waxing, clay bar and hand polishing the water marks...but it seems it is etched in the paint.  Is the C2V3 a shortcut to machine cutting/polishing?  My guess is that there is no way to recover the paint but to cut, polish, C2V3?  

Anybody have experience with these “deep” water marks?  I’ve never quite seen anything like this...

 

I don't think that C2V3 itself would remove paint damage like you are describing, or for oxidation,  Mind I applied it to a quite new paint job so I did very little prep other than to clean the airplane first.  I think of it like sort of like a temporary clear coat.  

I would think you would want to use a kind of abrasive category of wax, like the same you would use to lift oxidation, the kind I used to use on my old paint before I got it repainted.  Then C2V3 would be a finishing product.

My feeling is - again not tested - is that C2V3 is protective in that if you are in an environment where what happened to you happens again, it would damage the C2V3 and not the underlying paint.  So easier to clean out and fix.

Again, once C2V3 is on, the plane is very very smooth and subsequent layers are trivial to add - like an extra hour - and very satisfying.  I do plan on re-doing it every 6 months or so.  Just because I can.  You and me Both Dan.

[tmo]

To the best of my understanding, the sequence for tough stains would usually be: 1) clean / degrease 2) compound cleaner (eg. Meguiar's M105) / clay bar 3) polish (eg. Autoglym Super Resin Polish) 4) wax / sealant (C2V3); some exceptionally bad parts may need pre-treatment with very fine sandpaper (2000+ grit).

I did not go for the sandpaper treatment.

[Danb]

Tmo I’d try to stay away from sandpaper there’s many excellent products that most likely will work with the rotary buffer, trial and effort, it took a few differing products until I found the formula to remove the deep stains. I ended up with the Griots polishing it white and easy to work with polishing compound did nothing and I felt rubbing compound was to harsh. I did a small sample with the 2000 sandpaper with harsh results as well.