IFD 440 vs GNS 430W with 210 Flightstream

[John Mininger]

After getting back from a 4 week trip flying around Florida and visiting friends, I've resolved that I'm no longer willing to manually input flight plans to my 430W. I know that I can trade in the 430W and upgrade to a IFD 440 which comes with wifi and BT for about $6000 with virtually no installation costs. Or I can purchase and have installed a Flightstream 210 to interface with my current GNS 430W for probably $1500 to $2000. 

Obviously, having a Flightstream 210 installed and keeping the 430W is going to be the least expensive option. But I'm interested to know if anyone has traded in their 430W for a 440, and if they feel the 440 is a better unit regardless of being able to sync flight plans from their tablets.

Frankly, I'm very happy with the 430W that I have. I just want to be able to sync flight plans from ForeFlight.

Thanks

John 

[MIm20c]

Used 430w’s are still in the 5800-6k range. If you add 6k to that you are in the used 750 range. For a 3k delta I’d buy a 440 no question. However, if you are approaching the 750 price range spend a little extra to have it installed. 
 

...having said all that it still doesn’t give to remote entry but it does do airways. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by MIm20c

[John Mininger]

1 minute ago, MIm20c said:

Used 430w’s are still in the 5800-6k range. If you add 6k to that you are in the used 750 range. For a 3k delta I’d buy a 440 no question. However, if you are approaching the 750 price range spend a little extra to have it installed. 
 

...having said all that it still doesn’t give to remote entry but it does do airways. 

I fly with an iPad mini mounted to my yoke. I'm very happy with that. I'm not sure what a 750 would give me over a 650 or 440 except a larger screen. 

What I'm really looking for is the ability to sync flight plans.

Thanks for the input.

John

[Oldguy]

I swapped out my 430W for the 540, but the results are essentially the same as the 430/440 swap. The additional benefit I have found so far in addition to the FF to IFD loading of flight plans is the IFD 100 on the iPad.

It took a little time for me to get used to the IFD entry flow, and I am pretty sure I cussed it a few times in the beginning, but now it is almost second nature to enter a flight plan either through FF or on the IFD. And if you go through an IPC or do multiple instrument approaches with full missed/holds, you will come to love the ability to get it all entered at one time rather than sharing brain cycles between flying and entering the next approach.

[John Mininger]

Thanks Oldguy.

 

[ohdub]

To me there is no comparison between a 430 and IFD440. The IFD has way more capabilities and ease of use from the blue tooth keyboard, IFD100 app, ability to enter airways, "Boeing banana", Terrain awareness, 500' call-out etc, etc... the list is long. I found it to be fairly painless adjusting from the 430 to the IFD and now that I'm used to it I could never go back. I think that you would find it to be money very well spent to upgrade to a 440 

[laytonl]

I have a 530w with a fs210.  Works great. Lee

[carusoam]

@jakearey might be interested in this conversation...

Jake was discussing AMUs vs. capabilities in another thread... while looking to get WAAS capability for his M20C...

There are only so many AMUs available...

There is only so much space available...

Avidyne has more convenience Items... 

Garmin has a bigger presence in the market... (They also beat their earnings expectations this quarter, as announced today...)

My only bigscreen... is my iPad... 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[whiskytango]

I understand that the installation labor would be significantly greater, but I am curious as to whether anyone has gone from a GNS480 / CNX80 to an IFD440, and if so, how they like it?  As much as I love my CNX80, Garmin has stopped supporting it and repairs will probably involve (until they run out) cannibalized parts from other radios.

[carusoam]

Anyone that has made the transition from old to new hasn’t complained...

After the install is complete, and the bill has been paid...

But, if you have WAAS on your old system, and it has been paid for in the last century.... that is hard to beat.

 

True test of your CB-ness... you have an old WAAS navigator that is capable of WAAS approaches and supply ADSB data for the transponder... but you can’t let it go... because it works...  you have qualified for being a classic CB...  

Now... if that old navigator isn’t WAAS capable... switch to one that is, make it a modern one, don’t look back!

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

If you're patient you can get used FS210 for $600-800 and get a friendly A&P to help you install it. Power from a circuit breaker, ground, and two RS232 wires and pins to the 430W connector. Plus a bracket or somewhere convenient to mount it...

I'm hoping to install mine in the next few weeks.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[donkaye, MCFI]

8 hours ago, John Mininger said:

After getting back from a 4 week trip flying around Florida and visiting friends, I've resolved that I'm no longer willing to manually input flight plans to my 430W. I know that I can trade in the 430W and upgrade to a IFD 440 which comes with wifi and BT for about $6000 with virtually no installation costs. Or I can purchase and have installed a Flightstream 210 to interface with my current GNS 430W for probably $1500 to $2000. 

Obviously, having a Flightstream 210 installed and keeping the 430W is going to be the least expensive option. But I'm interested to know if anyone has traded in their 430W for a 440, and if they feel the 440 is a better unit regardless of being able to sync flight plans from their tablets.

Frankly, I'm very happy with the 430W that I have. I just want to be able to sync flight plans from ForeFlight.

Thanks

John 

Certainly the least expensive way to go, especially if you really like the 430W is to install the FS 210. Of course, Avidyne made the transition to their GPS plug and play compatible with the 430W.  But there are some really nice things about the Garmin 650Xi and 750Xi that aren't available on the Avidyne, namely VFR approaches to nearly every runway in the US and VNAV or coupled enroute VNAV if using a Garmin Autopilot.  Once the decision has been made to go Avidyne, though, that option is pretty much gone.  So, if you think you might want the benefits of the Garmin units in the future, then it would be best to wait on the GPS upgrade until that decision is made. 

I know FF is a compelling product, but TargetTrend is not available on it.  It is available in Garmin Pilot when used in conjunction with the GDL 88 or GTX 345.  That is so much more valuable than is absolute motion. It is also available on the 650Xi/750Xi, so that is another consideration.

[NotarPilot]

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

But there are some really nice things about the Garmin 650Xi and 750Xi that aren't available on the Avidyne, namely VFR approaches to nearly every runway in the US and VNAV or coupled enroute VNAV if using a Garmin Autopilot.  Once the decision has been made to go Avidyne, though, that option is pretty much gone.  

Hi Don, I’ve read this before about you touting the VFR approaches available on the 650.  I’m just curious why this is something anyone really needs though.  I think most of us just hand fly our VFR approaches so I’m failing to see the major benefit here.  Personally I think it’s cheaper to go with the 440 and skip the installation time and cost of the 650.

Edited February 20, 2020 by NotarPilot
Typo

[NotarPilot]

10 hours ago, John Mininger said:

After getting back from a 4 week trip flying around Florida and visiting friends, I've resolved that I'm no longer willing to manually input flight plans to my 430W. I know that I can trade in the 430W and upgrade to a IFD 440 which comes with wifi and BT for about $6000 with virtually no installation costs. Or I can purchase and have installed a Flightstream 210 to interface with my current GNS 430W for probably $1500 to $2000. 

Obviously, having a Flightstream 210 installed and keeping the 430W is going to be the least expensive option. But I'm interested to know if anyone has traded in their 430W for a 440, and if they feel the 440 is a better unit regardless of being able to sync flight plans from their tablets.

Frankly, I'm very happy with the 430W that I have. I just want to be able to sync flight plans from ForeFlight.

Thanks

John 

Jim, I had the FS 210 system with my previous set of 430s up until 2016 when I switched to the IFD 440s.  I really liked the FS 210 and it’s a great system. I seem to recall a few times where the Bluetooth wouldn’t link and it didn’t work as it should but I still liked it. It worked well with Garmin Pilot.  However, I really like the IFD 440s and how well it works with the IFR 100 on my iPad mini. I also have a yoke mount and I really like how the FMS on the IFD 100 will load directly and in real time to the boxes in the panel. No need to press upload or push anything.  Also the IFD 100 is a great app. It gives you more screen size than you’d get on a 540.  I’m thinking of using my old iPad mini strictly for the IFD 100. You can change frequencies, enter flight plans, see your route, pull up airport info, etc.  Youcan’t go wrong with the 440. 

Steve

[bradp]

I have a fS210 with a 430W.  It’s great and does exactly what it’s supposed to.  
 

Longer term - just be aware that what Don says is true. The lack of robust compatibility with garmins competitions is designed to keep you in their sandbox.  If you have a great autopilot and you don’t need a new one and are happy with your PFD/MFd/steam setup you have a lot more flexibility. The IFD is a fantastic navigator that I’ve only played with on a stand.  The only major downside is their waiver/warranty policy. 
 

Regarding  target trend - it’s OK. I wouldn’t make any decisions based on its presence or absence.  I have TT displayed on a garmin panel mounted portable and blue triangles on FF. Half the time the little green predictive track vectors on TF seem to be pointing in an odd direction.  I just like having some depiction of traffic - that’s a game changer. 

[dzeleski]

Keep in mind this is coming from a 27 year old, 120 hour non IR pilot....

I cannot stand the 430s menu system and programing, it is the furthest thing from intuitive. It almost requires that you read the manual before even attempting to use it. I have flown with my new 440 for about 15 or so hours now and its night and day. Its far more intuitive, allows you to pre program way more into it, and nearly all critical features you can figure out without even opening the manual once.

The reason I did not upgrade to something garmin was for three main reasons:

1) zero install cost

2) touch screens in turbulence are a giant pain in the ass. Having the option of using a touch screen or physical buttons is a massive plus. The BT keyboard that it comes with is also great for entering in flight plans manually if you dont just push it to the panel from foreflight.

3) I really dont like how garmins menus and programming are done on the newer models, ive used the 355 and 375 in rentals and it really wasnt fun to use. But this is strictly personal opinion.

The only negative that I have found with the avidyne so far is the Jepp subscription.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, dzeleski said:

Keep in mind this is coming from a 27 year old, 120 hour non IR pilot....

I cannot stand the 430s menu system and programing, it is the furthest thing from intuitive. It almost requires that you read the manual before even attempting to use it. I have flown with my new 440 for about 15 or so hours now and its night and day. Its far more intuitive, allows you to pre program way more into it, and nearly all critical features you can figure out without even opening the manual once.

The reason I did not upgrade to something garmin was for three main reasons:

1) zero install cost

2) touch screens in turbulence are a giant pain in the ass. Having the option of using a touch screen or physical buttons is a massive plus. The BT keyboard that it comes with is also great for entering in flight plans manually if you dont just push it to the panel from foreflight.

3) I really dont like how garmins menus and programming are done on the newer models, ive used the 355 and 375 in rentals and it really wasnt fun to use. But this is strictly personal opinion.

The only negative that I have found with the avidyne so far is the Jepp subscription.

Hah!  That made me laugh... “It almost requires that you read the manual before even attempting to use it.”

Dang whippersnappers (said tongue in cheek and with a smile)!!  
 

Ok, maybe I’m a crabby old ATP/CFI/CFII/Fighter Pilot, but yes, you should definitely read the manual before attempting to use aviation technology.  That includes whatever documentation there is for the airplane, avionics, propellor, regulations, etc.  Are you gonna memorize it? No.  But read it? Yes.  I realize your phone and car aren’t designed like that, but they are designed for the lowest common denominator and you’re a pilot, you aren’t the lowest common denominator anymore.  Hopefully you’re a professional pilot regardless of what type of licenses or ratings you have.  So yes, by all means, read the manual, practice using the 430 on the sim Garmin provides, practice in the airplane.  Do not expect to sit down in a general aviation airplane and magically know how everything will operate.  You will quickly find out how your assumptions and lack of knowledge get you into trouble or hurt someone.

Rant over.  And I really mean no offense.

[donkaye, MCFI]

20 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

Hi Don, I’ve read this before about you touting the VFR approaches available on the 650.  I’m just curious why this is something anyone really needs though.  I think most of us just hand fly our VFR approaches so I’m failing to see the major benefit here.  Personally I think it’s cheaper to go with the 440 and skip the installation time and cost of the 650.

Originally, I thought the same thing about VFR approaches.  Why would anyone need them?  Once I started using them I changed my mind completely.  In the past I would always go to OBS mode and set the course selector to runway heading for situational awareness.  Now, when within 10 nm of the airport an icon pops up on the display.  Tap it and all the VFR approaches to every runway at the airport present themselves.  Activate the approach you want and on an electronic PFD with auto slewing the course selector aligns with the runway along with a note regarding the availability of a glide path.  If a glide path is available and you have an autopilot such as the KFC 150, when set to HDG and arming APR, the plane will intercept the final approach course and fly the glide path just like an ILS or LPV approach.  Pretty useful in my opinion.

Regarding TargetTrend, if you have it available and don't think it is a major breakthrough in traffic avoidance, then you don't understand how it works.  The green line that come out in any direction from a traffic icon, gives the relative motion of that traffic from your plane.  So, for example, if there are 30 targets on the display and no green line passes through your plane icon on the screen, all traffic will be avoided.  This can be seen immediately without having to stare at the screen, as would be necessary with the white line that only shows absolute motion.

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Hah!  That made me laugh... “It almost requires that you read the manual before even attempting to use it.”

Dang whippersnappers (said tongue in cheek and with a smile)!!  
 

Ok, maybe I’m a crabby old ATP/CFI/CFII/Fighter Pilot, but yes, you should definitely read the manual before attempting to use aviation technology.  That includes whatever documentation there is for the airplane, avionics, propellor, regulations, etc.  Are you gonna memorize it? No.  But read it? Yes.  I realize your phone and car aren’t designed like that, but they are designed for the lowest common denominator and you’re a pilot, you aren’t the lowest common denominator anymore.  Hopefully you’re a professional pilot regardless of what type of licenses or ratings you have.  So yes, by all means, read the manual, practice using the 430 on the sim Garmin provides, practice in the airplane.  Do not expect to sit down in a general aviation airplane and magically know how everything will operate.  You will quickly find out how your assumptions and lack of knowledge get you into trouble or hurt someone.

Rant over.  And I really mean no offense.

Of course I did actually read it as well as bought and watched the training to go with it. Im a massive proponent in understanding how every single system works in anything you operate. It always makes troubleshooting easier. Im mostly explaining in a (tongue in cheek way) how much harder the 430 is to use then the 440, and when things do go wrong something that is more intuitive naturally is going to be easier to troubleshoot.

No offense taken, your point is correct.

Edited February 20, 2020 by dzeleski

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, dzeleski said:

Of course I did actually read it as well as bought and watched the training to go with it. Im a massive proponent in understanding how every single system works in anything you operate. It always makes troubleshooting easier. Im mostly explaining in a (tongue in cheek way) how much harder the 430 is to use then the 440, and when things do go wrong something that is more intuitive naturally is going to be easier to troubleshoot.

No offense taken, your point is correct.

Awesome, I was hoping that’s what you meant!  I totally agree the more intuitive designs are better, but sometimes it takes a while to get there even if the underlying capability is there.  The 430W is a very capable navigator but it was developed while you were an infant and released when you were 5.  It is what it is.  
 

If I have my choice, the more intuitive (IFD or GTN) would be great but, like you, I’m still gonna read the manual.

A lot of times it’s just how well a certain design philosophy meshes with the way we think.  I fly a G1000 airplane for work, and I’ve been super confused each time I flew in a Honeywell FMS equipped jet with similar capability - even with practice and study.  iPhone vs Android.

[Bartman]

After the success and raves from some of the early adopters on Mooneyspace I chose to upgrade my 430w to the IFD440 and chose to add the remote transponder and their ADSB-in solution. I enjoy intuitive nature of the flight plan entry on the panel screen, but for me the IFD-100 app is the best. I now have a full screen on the iPad very similar to the panel mount and can make up flight plans at home which sync to the panel at startup. One thing, you have to keep both iPad and panel on the same IFR database cycle otherwise they will not sync together.  I enjoy that I don’t have to worry about charging the Stratus or shielding it from the sun, but I do keep it in the bag for backup. 

[MIm20c]

On 2/19/2020 at 5:11 PM, John Mininger said:

I fly with an iPad mini mounted to my yoke. I'm very happy with that. I'm not sure what a 750 would give me over a 650 or 440 except a larger screen. 

What I'm really looking for is the ability to sync flight plans.

Thanks for the input.

John

Not disagreeing with you at all. In fact I have 430W in my C and have been considering the same upgrade for the past two years. Noticed the aggressively priced 210 on BT a couple weeks ago 5 mins after it was posted, came within inches of buying a used 440 from Chase a year ago, and have plenty of room to add a larger screen. My avionics budget has been diverted to another plane so I’ve remained in the holding pattern. However, in your shoes right now I’d probably sell your 430W right now and buy a used 540. He delta between the two is exactly $5k.  For reference that is $700 cheaper than a 430W to 440 dealer trade in right now. IMO the 540 vs 440 equipped plane will book out $4k higher...

[Oldguy]

2 hours ago, Bartman said:

After the success and raves from some of the early adopters on Mooneyspace I chose to upgrade my 430w to the IFD440 and chose to add the remote transponder and their ADSB-in solution. I enjoy intuitive nature of the flight plan entry on the panel screen, but for me the IFD-100 app is the best. I now have a full screen on the iPad very similar to the panel mount and can make up flight plans at home which sync to the panel at startup. One thing, you have to keep both iPad and panel on the same IFR database cycle otherwise they will not sync together.  I enjoy that I don’t have to worry about charging the Stratus or shielding it from the sun, but I do keep it in the bag for backup. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I mount my Stratus on the window when I know I will be in actual IMC, but otherwise it stays charged and in the outside pocket of my flight bag.

[John Mininger]

Perhaps I should have added to my original post that I have an Appareo Stratus ESG transponder that's hardwired into a Stratus 2i. The Stratus 2i is mounted just above my right knee so it doesn't see any sunlight. I get all the ADS-B info fed into the 2i through the outside antennas of the Appearo Stratus ESG; then wifi'd out to the iPad with ForeFlight.

It works great.

 

[PDXBravo]

On 2/19/2020 at 8:49 PM, whiskytango said:

I understand that the installation labor would be significantly greater, but I am curious as to whether anyone has gone from a GNS480 / CNX80 to an IFD440, and if so, how they like it?  As much as I love my CNX80, Garmin has stopped supporting it and repairs will probably involve (until they run out) cannibalized parts from other radios.

@whiskytango I'm in the same boat.  I have a GNS480 / CNX80 that I'm looking to upgrade.  Did you upgrade?