Mooney Fatality, Bartow, FL.

[N201MKTurbo]

Be careful out there. Don't do formation flying unless everybody knows exactly what to do. An in trail landing should be no different then a normal landing in the pattern.

[gsxrpilot]

"joined the flight at the last minute and were assigned the No. 4 position in the formation"

That was painful to read. 

[steingar]

On 2/15/2020 at 9:06 PM, Yooper Rocketman said:

I’m really struggling holding back my thoughts.  I spent considerable time talking with Bonney at the Mooney gathering at Spruce Creek in January.  Being really busy, I neglected to post a story and a picture, MY FRIEND that attended the gathering, took at that event (with Bonney kneeling right beside me) of the whole group.  I talked with her at length and she was proud to share that she owned the RV and her  husband owned the  Mooney.  They were an Aviation loving couple living on one of the most amazing Airparks in the world.  They epitomized US!   

I don’t disagree many of you have the right to discuss “what could have happened”.  But the community down here at Spruce, (yes, I’m here now and knew about this before the first post), is devastated.  Dennis was on the Association Board.   I suggest we take speculations to the cause, supposedly done to “help us learn”, to a new topic and pay our sympathies and respects to their loss on this thread.

How would you like your loved ones, left behind in YOUR FATAL ACCIDENT, seeing all this speculation to the loss of their family/friends in the light of some of these posts?  I simply do not agree this thread deserves these posts!

Tom

Its been tough year for you Tom.  I am SO sorry for your loss.  Those sounded like great people.  All I can say is if I buy it I want you guys to speculate like crazy.  If my demise can stop someone from going down the same path at least it won't have been in vain.

[skydvrboy]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

what is everybody using for their minimum maneuver speed?

mine is 80mph. I’ve calculated based on 0 flaps and gives me some margins with a pretty aggressive bank. Adding flaps increases that margin and I keep 80 until at least over the fence. 

I don't believe this is the correct minimum maneuvering speed.  If I remember right you fly a C model and the clean stall speed is 58 kts or 67 mph.  Minimum maneuvering speed is 1.404 times the clean stall speed or in your case 94 mph.

For my F model it works out to 95 mph, which I try to maintain until I am on final.  However, I then slow down substantially and my approach speed is between 70 mph and 80 mph depending on loading and runway length.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

what is everybody using for their minimum maneuver speed?

mine is 80mph. I’ve calculated based on 0 flaps and gives me some margins with a pretty aggressive bank. Adding flaps increases that margin and I keep 80 until at least over the fence. 

I deploy Takeoff flaps if I'm going to spend much time below about 100 mph in my C. Pattern speed is 90 mph, and she handles much better with flaps.

Stall speed clean is 67 mph; with gear down and takeoff flaps it's 64 mph. 1.3 Vs is therefore 87 & 83 mph. 

There is also this statement in the Owners Manual:

[Hank]

dp

Edited February 28, 2020 by Hank

[201Steve]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

"joined the flight at the last minute and were assigned the No. 4 position in the formation"

That was painful to read. 

Are you simply referring to the last minute addition or is there also some significance of the #4 position?

[gsxrpilot]

17 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

Are you simply referring to the last minute addition or is there also some significance of the #4 position?

I'm very hesitant to comment on this. I don't want to offend and do want to be respectful. But here goes... on both points.

The last minute addition concerns me. When I fly formation with good friends, with whom I have many, many hours of formation time, and countless flights, we still have a full formal brief. The brief often takes an hour or more. And if someone shows up late and misses the brief, they do not join the formation. Regardless of who they are or if they've flown with us before. It's just one of our rules, that if you don't attend the brief, you don't fly with the formation. And this includes the average lunch run. 

The #4 position is also considered one of the more difficult positions to fly. That position doesn't carry the responsibility that the Lead or the #3 (deputy lead), positions carry. But it's a challenging position to fly. 

Finally, flying formation with dissimilar aircraft brings additional challenges. I've flown formation with plenty of RV's, Bonanza's, Yak's, CJ's and even the odd Cherokee. But this requires additional briefing prior to the flight to account for differences in performance, sight pictures, size, etc. It certainly adds additional challenges to the flight.

I hope I'm not coming across as trying to sound like a better formation pilot, more knowledgeable, or anything like that. It's certainly not my intention. And I obviously don't know everything about the situation. These were just my thoughts as I was reading the NTSB report. 

[201Steve]

Knowing nothing abt formation flight, it would seem the last guy in the line would have the least liability to the group. That’s why I asked. 

[J0nathan225]

6 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Knowing nothing abt formation flight, it would seem the last guy in the line would have the least liability to the group. That’s why I asked. 

While often true, think about the larger error build up as you go back in chalks of a formation or even cars.  Similar to the traffic wave effect or ghost traffic on highways. The reactions and timing of the others result in larger actions needing to be taken the further back you go.

[Candy man]

I love the discussion on pattern and landing speeds, I just don’t love it in this thread. This thread makes me sad for the loss we all experience with every accident.

 

That being said I’m going to start a new thread in Safety and Accident section. Please comment with you 2 cents, let’s debate and learn. 

 

Lawrence

[Gary0747]

The Mooney 201 stall speed is 20 percent higher than all three of those RVs so matching maneuvering speeds and spacing in the pattern is likely difficult.  

[JBear]

Very sad to see this happen. My condolence to friends and families of those involved.   Flying formation with dissimilar aircraft a lead need to spent extra time discussing all aspects of the issues in the briefing such as climbing performance, approach speed and cruising speed...etc.  

I know a friend who is actively involved with the Spruce Creek formation group. They fly formation in dissimilar aircraft all the time. I guess a briefing may not be as detail since they've done that for so long.  Not sure if the lead used the briefing checklist. The RTB, recovery and landing must be discussed during a briefing if a checklist is used.   This is a reminder of those whom flying formation a detailed briefing is always needed before a flight. 

And moreover, a detailed debrief is always needed after each flight as well. Do not skip a debriefing because each flight can have its own unique saturation that didn't happen before. A detailed debriefing makes everyone involved got something to learn from. So the concerns can be addressed on the next flight.

[Fry]

Why is a departing prop worse than a windmilling prop? Only reason I can imagine, W&B. When low and slow on final, the departing prop may change the CM in a way that probably makes a quick trim correction necessary. When not done, the nose may go up -> stall/spin.

Any other thoughts?

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Fry said:

Why is a departing prop worse than a windmilling prop? Only reason I can imagine, W&B. When low and slow on final, the departing prop may change the CM in a way that probably makes a quick trim correction necessary. When not done, the nose may go up -> stall/spin.

Any other thoughts?

That's exactly the problem, except it can't be trimmed out. 

Check your logs and W&B history, find the weight of your prop. Now recalculate with that much weight up front (negative arm) removed, and see how far your CG shifts to the rear.

From the world of RC planes:  nose heavy flies poorly, tail heavy flies once.

[ArtVandelay]

That's exactly the problem, except it can't be trimmed out. 
Check your logs and W&B history, find the weight of your prop. Now recalculate with that much weight up front (negative arm) removed, and see how far your CG shifts to the rear.
From the world of RC planes:  nose heavy flies poorly, tail heavy flies once.

It’s a pretty short arm (0 is somewhere near the nose wheel), so without doing calculations, I doubt it would move the CG anywhere close the the forward limit.

[Hank]

36 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

It’s a pretty short arm (0 is somewhere near the nose wheel), so without doing calculations, I doubt it would move the CG anywhere close the the forward limit.

Removing weight from the nose will shift the CG to the rear . . . .

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

It’s a pretty short arm (0 is somewhere near the nose wheel), so without doing calculations, I doubt it would move the CG anywhere close the the forward limit.

The important arm isn't the one to the datum, it's the one to the CG.   The datum can be anywhere, even in front of the propeller, or at the propeller.    Removing weight anywhere in front of the CG moves the CG further back.

 

[ArtVandelay]

The important arm isn't the one to the datum, it's the one to the CG.   The datum can be anywhere, even in front of the propeller, or at the propeller.    Removing weight anywhere in front of the CG moves the CG further back.

 

But the arm isn’t going to shift the plane out of the it’s envelope, so CG should be fine. Mine is 46, basically right in the middle for single pilot operations. Same type as the accident plane.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

But the arm isn’t going to shift the plane out of the it’s envelope, so CG should be fine. Mine is 46, basically right in the middle for single pilot operations. Same type as the accident plane.

How much does your propeller weigh? Redo your W&B, including you in the left seat, with the propeller weight removed and the propeller moment removed. Tell us how many inches the CG shifts to the rear, and if it's still within limits. I'd bet money the CG goes out the rear.

[ArtVandelay]

How much does your propeller weigh? Redo your W&B, including you in the left seat, with the propeller weight removed and the propeller moment removed. Tell us how many inches the CG shifts to the rear, and if it's still within limits. I'd bet money the CG goes out the rear.

47.57, well under the 50.2 limit.

[Andy95W]

19 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

47.57, well under the 50.2 limit.

So the good news is that if you lose your prop, you'll still be in the CG range.

The bad news is that you lost yer friggin' prop...

[ArtVandelay]

So the good news is that if you lose your prop, you'll still be in the CG range.
The bad news is that you lost yer friggin' prop...

You have to wonder how slow he was going, how long it took for him to react, and in the chaos if he simply stalled the plane.

[JBear]

You guys might want to read the NTSB's final report of another deadly accident from the Spruce Creek "Gaggle Flight Formation Group", which released in the September of last year.   I think it's time to serious look into the potential safety issues pointed out by this final report (in the additional information section).  

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20170401X94926&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

 

[Jim Peace]

On 4/19/2020 at 7:05 PM, JBear said:

You guys might want to read the NTSB's final report of another deadly accident from the Spruce Creek "Gaggle Flight Formation Group", which released in the September of last year.   I think it's time to serious look into the potential safety issues pointed out by this final report (in the additional information section).  

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20170401X94926&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

 

one of the deceased lived directly across the street from me......Hits home....