Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[Marauder]

I just don’t see how any M20J has uncontrollable pitch forced during a go around. unless you have a habit of just holding the electric trim all the way in the flare until it hits the up stop which is not the right way to land airplanes anyway.

If you are transitioning from a Piper or Cessna and didn’t receive some practice go arounds, the amount of force required will feel like a lot. Add in a couple of passengers (which the accident plane had onboard), I could see how someone didn’t push hard enough and let it stall.

I did my complex checkout in a J. I had over 300 hours in Cessnas and Pipers with no Mooney time. The checkout pilot never practiced go arounds and also scared the hell out of me doing stalls at 1500’ AGL.

When I found my Mooney, the guy I bought it from was a CFII. He was the one that educated me on the go around forces as well as the other things to watch for when flying a Mooney.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[carusoam]

In order to not repeat this experience, we will need to know more... of what actually happened... hard to tell at this point.

 

In order to share methods of avoiding similar challenges we get to discuss openly, what may have happened...

 

Long bodies are no more susceptible of a stall during full power/flaps down combinations than shorter bodies...

When the trim doesn’t match the flap setting... we are all in for a wake-up call...

Get the nose down to level with the horizon... and hold it there... fly the plane... then clean up the power/configuration...

It is a surprise go-around...   

Full power, may not be your best friend....

Rapidly Changing configuration near the ground may not be very safe either...

This type of accident can happen to the most experienced pilots... first Mooney accident I read about decades ago was a CFI botching up a go-around...

Be aware of the challenge of power and flap configuration... and trim...

Be extra aware if your arms haven’t seen the gym in years....  

 

As far as electronic saves for this situation.... that’s going to be a tough one...

Auto pilots are challenged by ordinary level cruise and ascents/descent... first derivative challenges... adding acceleration to the quick change of attitude coming off the ground... is more of a second derivative type of challenge....

There is a reason we are supposed to have the AP off until things are stabilized... their brain power, and reaction time, and other things aren’t quite up to speed yet... except possibly that auto-land device....  

Prayers for our lost wingman...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Iwe are supposed to have the AP off until things are stabilized... their brain power, and reaction time, and other things aren’t quite up to speed yet... except possibly that auto-land device....  

Fwiw.. the Garmin ESP is always on - the stall scenarios I mentioned are all with the AP switched "off." These are automated corrections for manual errors. 

(You can manually disable ESP, but it automatically re-enables at next power-up.)

[carusoam]

Second derivative stuff isn’t too complex for the modern digital world...

And Garmin’s ESP is certainly in the very modern category...

pushing the LVL button automatically and getting a save before leaving the airport perimeter would be great!

I guess we call this envelope protection...

Then we would have to add failure of the ESP system to include surprises we could get from it... 

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

Yesterday I appreciated my Bravo transition CFI covering just this issue.While cleared to land at KSAC ,tower cleared a 172 for immediate takeoff advising a Mooney on 1 mile final.The guy slowly meanders out on the runway and than stops.Mean while I am configured full flaps and near full nose up trim.Tower starts yelling at the guy to get a move on and about 200 ft from approach end orders me to go arround .I apply full power with the inevitable pitch up and go roaring over the head of the sleeping pilot in the Cessna.Pitch forces required ,I’m guessing 30/40 lbs on the yoke to counter out of trim.I remember during transition,the CFI ,had me attempt a takeoff in just such a condition (full flaps and gobs of up trim)he was ready to apply yoke force even after warning what would happen.In a big engine longbody with no body in back seat or baggage...it’s a workout.RIP to this accident pilot.I wonder who did his transition in the Eagle?

[Davidv]

I listened to the ATC, cleared for takeoff VFR departure “towards Arkansas”.

its sad that not 5 minutes after the incident you get a helicopter nonchalantly requesting tower for clearance to head up and “shoot this fire” (even saying “get some footage of the accident” would be more respectful in my view).  I know it’s the 24 hr news cycle times we live in, but just didn’t feel right.

[carusoam]

Known MSer or not?

The reason for this question...

It is a tad bit easier to reach out to/for known MSers...

 

...and the day gets a little dimmer when it is a known MSer...

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

37 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

News feeds show crystal clear skies with some apparent crosswind based upon the smoke from the fire.

Definitely a crosswind for a 18/36 runway:

KOJC 311753Z 27009G20KT 10SM CLR 03/M05 A3003 RMK AO2 SLP177 T00281050 10028 21022 50001

[bradp]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I just don’t see how any M20J has uncontrollable pitch forced during a go around. unless you have a habit of just holding the electric trim all the way in the flare until it hits the up stop which is not the right way to land airplanes anyway.

Look at that young YouTube dude out of San Marcos who was teaching that and a bunch of other bad mooney habits to a new owner ... 

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, toto said:

Dunno. I've definitely *tried* to stall the plane with ESP enabled, and I failed

Well ESP is part of the autopilot and thus uses the autopilot servos and I believe that it’s a certification requirement that the pilot be able to overpower the autopilot servo clutches. However, with any autopilot engaged in a pitch mode, pulling on the yoke will cause the autotrim to run the other way.  Pull long enough and it will trim full nose down and the elevator likely doesn’t have enough authority to stall the airplane with the stabilizer trimmed full nose down. So, perhaps this is why you couldn’t stall it. 

[toto]

55 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Well ESP is part of the autopilot and thus uses the autopilot servos and I believe that it’s a certification requirement that the pilot be able to overpower the autopilot servo clutches. However, with any autopilot engaged in a pitch mode, pulling on the yoke will cause the autotrim to run the other way.  Pull long enough and it will trim full nose down and the elevator likely doesn’t have enough authority to stall the airplane with the stabilizer trimmed full nose down. So, perhaps this is why you couldn’t stall it. 

Yep. There's no doubt that the system can be overpowered (I believe that that's the same point @jetdriven was making). 

I really just meant to say that this isn't purely an "inadvertent entry into an unusual attitude" system, but one that will actively try to prevent the pilot from doing something dangerous. 

My own efforts to stall against the ESP were during the post-install test flights of the GFC, where I wanted to see what would happen if I attempted to enter a stall with the ESP active. Without trying to overpower the system, it definitely prevented me from stalling using normal control pressures. 

(This is especially weird, because - as mentioned above - the autopilot is OFF while it's fighting your attempts to stall.)

[TTaylor]

 

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Police-identify-pilot-and-Belton-woman-killed-in-plane-crash-566628211.html

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I just don’t see how any M20J has uncontrollable pitch forced during a go around. unless you have a habit of just holding the electric trim all the way in the flare until it hits the up stop which is not the right way to land airplanes anyway.

I don’t know - but that crash several years ago as I said a new to type pilot in a go around full power pitched straight up in the air then spiral spin to the ground.  What I said was what we all talked about following the incident.  Whether good or bad form, and I agree it is poor form to try and land with trim all the way back, this scenario where people pitch straight up happens, in this and other types and it requires proper reaction.  So I am not trying to excuse it.  I am trying to explain it.

E

Edited January 2, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Yetti]

8 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I just don’t see how any M20J has uncontrollable pitch forced during a go around. unless you have a habit of just holding the electric trim all the way in the flare until it hits the up stop which is not the right way to land airplanes anyway.

Its not that it is uncontrollable, just that it is a big surprise and you have execute properly very quickly.   Not resetting the trim after landing will cause this also.   Landing half flaps means that you will avoid a nasty takeoff if you forget to reset the flaps or if you have to do a go around.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Yetti

[jetdriven]

8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Its not that it is uncontrollable, just that it is a big surprise and you have execute properly very quickly.   Not resetting the trim after landing will cause this also.   Landing half flaps means that you will avoid a nasty takeoff if you forget to reset the flaps or if you have to do a go around.

IVe has this plane 10 years, and I’ve done a lot of training other J models and I just don’t see how it’s any harder than a Cessna 150 to go around with full flaps and the trim set for landing. It just takes a very light forward pressure. However if it’s trimmed all the way up, yes they could be startling,,, but you’re not supposed to trim the plane until it hits the up stop in the flare to land. You flare 

[Yetti]

4 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

IVe has this plane 10 years, and I’ve done a lot of training other J models and I just don’t see how it’s any harder than a Cessna 150 to go around with full flaps and the trim set for landing. It just takes a very light forward pressure. However if it’s trimmed all the way up, yes they could be startling,,, but you’re not supposed to trim the plane until it hits the up stop in the flare to land. You flare 

Agreed.  But if you fly it in from 5 miles at 70mph it will be trimmed 3/4 of the way.   and it will pitch up really fast if you slam all three knobs forward.  As the people on Redit suggested happened with this case.  Horsepower is good, till it's not.

[chrisk]

13 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

IVe has this plane 10 years, and I’ve done a lot of training other J models and I just don’t see how it’s any harder than a Cessna 150 to go around with full flaps and the trim set for landing. It just takes a very light forward pressure. However if it’s trimmed all the way up, yes they could be startling,,, but you’re not supposed to trim the plane until it hits the up stop in the flare to land. You flare 

That is not the behavior in my plane.  With full flaps, full up trim, and at forward CG,  there is significant pilot input required on a go-around.  --Not that it can't be managed, but pushing the nose down will give you a work out.  -Especially when you are using one hand to put the gear up, open the cowl flaps, etc.

[larrynimmo]

Another factor can be the prop....one time I did a touch and go and I left my prop at 2300 rpm.(by accident).with 15 degrees flaps and gear extended with horrible climb characteristics...once I went full forward on the prop, plane climbed like a rocket

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

IVe has this plane 10 years, and I’ve done a lot of training other J models and I just don’t see how it’s any harder than a Cessna 150 to go around with full flaps and the trim set for landing. It just takes a very light forward pressure. However if it’s trimmed all the way up, yes they could be startling,,, but you’re not supposed to trim the plane until it hits the up stop in the flare to land. You flare 

I agree.  But nonetheless people do just that - people do things wrong.  So when I saw the location of that crash, and noted a new in type pilot in a 300hp Mooney, I remembered the fellow who died at Lake Placid several years ago.  I was the first in this thread to call out that it might be a departure stall scenario. They shouldn't happen.  But they do.  They should be easy to handle if proper technique is used, but they aren't sometimes by some pilots especially perhaps those new in type or perhaps improper transition training.  Again - not excusing the error - but trying to explain a possible scenario.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

That is not the behavior in my plane.  With full flaps, full up trim, and at forward CG,  there is significant pilot input required on a go-around.  --Not that it can't be managed, but pushing the nose down will give you a work out.  -Especially when you are using one hand to put the gear up, open the cowl flaps, etc.

It can really be a handful with 300hp.

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

...

Long bodies are no more susceptible of a stall during full power/flaps down combinations than shorter bodies...

When the trim doesn’t match the flap setting... we are all in for a wake-up call...

Get the nose down to level with the horizon... and hold it there... fly the plane... then clean up the power/configuration...

It is a surprise go-around...   

Full power, may not be your best friend....

 

Are long bodies more prone to departure stalls than mid or short bodies?  Or is it the high power that goes with the long bodies.  I can say that my 300hp mid body is quite a handful of pitch up if not trimmed under full power.

A related other problem of high power.  I long ago noticed that suddenly applying full power go around is not a good idea when low and slow during a (practice) missed on an IFR procedure missed.  Going say 90 - or 100 kts descending at low power at 200ft missed on an ILS, then immediately applying full power - under the hood - or in actual - the airplane wants to develop a little bit of rotating torque that needs to be compensated by rudder and aileron input immediately or the plan wants to roll over.  Which can be a bit disorienting when entirely on instruments.  I find it much better to add power smoothly and gradually, very gradually, during a go around missed while gradually increasing control inputs to nicely keep everything smooth and under control.  I mean over the runway environment and a fast climber plane, there should not be a need to jam in the black knob and risk loosing orientation.  There is time to ease it in over 5 or 10 sec from 18'' through to 38''.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, Davidv said:

"they don't make them like they used to"

I bought my plane with only 90 SMOH (and new mags) and had to replace my slicks after getting stranded on my delivery flight home....

If I bought a plane with Slicks I would replace them with Bendix at 500hrs.

[Niko182]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

IVe has this plane 10 years, and I’ve done a lot of training other J models and I just don’t see how it’s any harder than a Cessna 150 to go around with full flaps and the trim set for landing. It just takes a very light forward pressure. However if it’s trimmed all the way up, yes they could be startling,,, but you’re not supposed to trim the plane until it hits the up stop in the flare to land. You flare 

Landing configuration in the long bodies requires practically all of the up trim with full flaps. Either get a workout keeping the nose up in landing, or take that workout going around pushing the nose down. You dont really have a mix. Ive made a habit of using 10° of flaps for landings on runways longer than 3000ft. Under that ill use full flaps, but if i need to go around, ill apply the electric trim down while increasing the power. That works for me.

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Landing configuration in the long bodies requires practically all of the up trim with full flaps. Either get a workout keeping the nose up in landing, or take that workout going around pushing the nose down. You dont really have a mix. Ive made a habit of using 10° of flaps for landings on runways longer than 3000ft. Under that ill use full flaps, but if i need to go around, ill apply the electric trim down while increasing the power. That works for me.

I have had my electric trim fail on go around - of all times.  Actually the trim switch on the yoke failed.  Anyway what that means is that you need to hold the proper yoke force - lots of forward pressure - while manually moving the trim wheel with the other hand.

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Are long bodies more prone to departure stalls than mid or short bodies?  Or is it the high power that goes with the long bodies.  I can say that my 300hp mid body is quite a handful of pitch up if not trimmed under full power.

A related other problem of high power.  I long ago noticed that suddenly applying full power go around is not a good idea when low and slow during a (practice) missed on an IFR procedure missed.  Going say 90 - or 100 kts descending at low power at 200ft missed on an ILS, then immediately applying full power - under the hood - or in actual - the airplane wants to develop a little bit of rotating torque that needs to be compensated by rudder and aileron input immediately or the plan wants to roll over.  Which can be a bit disorienting when entirely on instruments.  I find it much better to add power smoothly and gradually, very gradually, during a go around missed while gradually increasing control inputs to nicely keep everything smooth and under control.  I mean over the runway environment and a fast climber plane, there should not be a need to jam in the black knob and risk loosing orientation.  There is time to ease it in over 5 or 10 sec from 18'' through to 38''.

Expect  challenges are very similar from short to long...

The Cl vs Cg is similarly arranged in all Mooneys...  CL, only a small l....

Putting the flaps all the way down moves the Cl some more.... setting up the need for trim...

When adding in a full 180hp during a GA, the M20C will be slowly pointing skyward, surprisingly... needing to be tamed manually...

When adding in a full 310hp during a GA, the M20R will be pointing skyward, surprisingly... needing to be tamed electrically...

(use caution with electric trim near the ends of its travel... to avoid it getting jammed without it giving any hints of its jammed-ness....)

 

Taming either machine until power and/or trim can be rectified only takes seconds... not reacting properly, or in a timely manner, sets up the stall...

 

The lousy TT I afforded the first time didn’t cover all the things that could happen under ordinary operations...

Seeing them under the guidance of a Mooney specific CFII is a much better way to learn and discuss these things...

I first heard the improper phrase ... you can never have enough up trim in a Mooney... making it sound official... It came directly from il-advised TT...

As far as force needed to hold the nose down... that would be a design spec that are probably very similar through the range of Mooneys... 40LBs was mentioned above... which isn’t very much at first...  Most people probably won’t be able to hold that with one arm for very long...

Trim switch... that thing must be built incredibly well... Of all the strange multi-taking things we do while flying the Mooney... a High powered go-around uses a lot of tasks... pushing hard forwards with one hand, while operating the trim switch with the thumb... that switch gets pushed pushed with several unmeasured pounds... unless you really have good multi-tasking skills... feel the fine click of the switch? During all of that? 

I got to practice many GAs for a few years...several years ago... judgement skill is everything... if your judgement skill is off, a GA is your best choice... so said my best Mooney specific CFII... after I performed one in front of a Mooney fly-in...

The other thing I learned.... be early to the Mooney fly-in...  

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... spread the word...

Best regards,

-a-