What would you do?

[bob865]

Well I got some really bad news today, my engine has a cracked crank case.  The engine had started giving indications that something wasn't right.  The last oil analysis showed high iron (5x average) and high-ish copper and on the last flight the oil temp drifted to the red line.  When we pulled the cowling to investigate we found oil on the case and when checking found the crack.  The pic is attached.

With the bad indications, it looks like a new engine is in my future.  I am on the cusp of an avionics upgrade and trying to weight the options, considering is it better to upgrade my current plane or buy a new plane that's equipped how I want it.

The plane is a 75 e model that is in overall good shape.  Newly resealed tanks and new shock discs. She currently is lacking in avionics, but is equipped with a g5 for the ADI. So just curious what you would do? Overhaul and upgrade?  Repair and sell and buy an equipped plane?

[Marauder]

It depends. How many hours and what is the age of the engine? If you sell it with a mid time engine with a crack, you’ll be selling it as a plane that needs engine work.

If the engine is no where near TBO, I’d look at having the crack repaired.


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[1964-M20E]

Sorry to hear bout this.  Here are some options with wild ass guess pricing.

1. Fixing the crack would be the cheapest option. Remove and replace engine, disassembly, gasket set maybe rings IRAN the rest catalog every part inside the engine and run it for another 2000 hours. WAG $6amu
2. Find another serviceable case IRAN existing engine internals and accessories to the new case. WAG $10AMU
3. Find serviceable low time engine removed form flying aircraft.  WAG $15AMU
4. Find a new case use existing engine components. WAG $15AMU
5. Factory overhaul with exchange WAG $30AMU factory may not accept core due to crack?
6. Factory new engine WAG $50AMU factory may not accept core due to crack?

JMHO

But regardless of your decision fix it and fly it.

[Mufflerbearing]

This is a case of the evil you know vs the evil you don't know.  Finding the unicorn airplane that will have everything you want that may be for sale will be difficult.  It may have hidden issues too.  It is much easier to build the plane you want, it only cost a bunch of amu's.  The downside is you will never get your money out.  The best scenario would be to find that very elusive airplane and get it at a reasonable price.  No matter what, you will have to fix the plane you have.

[GeeBee]

I would check with Lycoming on the core issue. If it is not a roller cam engine, the will probably trash the case anyway and not charge you for the core. Worth a look.

 

 

[Stephen]

If you want to keep the plane, consider shipping the engine to Jewell. We have a lot of positive MS feedback from them and they took great care of me. 

[ArtVandelay]

New case will run about $4K.

Edit: I don’t see the crack in the picture?

 

Tom

 

[bob865]

Thanks.  You all kinda mirrored my thoughts.  On a big purchase, I like to have a sanity check.

I guess I did leave out a good bit of info.  The engine that's on the plane is around 1800hrs.  It's had a tough life, a prop strike and even had a cylinder jug blow off and through the cowling at some point in the past.  With it's high time and tough life, I'm thinking it's time to go ahead and retire her and buy an overhauled or new engine.  Hopefully it's in good enough shape I can get money back on the core.

As for the upgrades, I've been running the numbers.  With the new engine and the avionics upgrades, I think I'm looking at around $70k investment (estimated with engine included).  I'm hoping if I do the avionics while she is waiting on an engine I can get a resonable discount on the installs becuase it will be easier to access and I can give it to a shop with a "work it in" discount and hopefully I can manage to do a lot of the work.  When all is said and done, using Jimmy garison's price guide, she would end up being about a $95-$100k plane.  Looking in that price range, there are nice planes, but none have any glass (mine would have 2 garmin G5s) and most have older GPSs (430s and mine would be a 650 or 440).  Plug most have the old King autopilots I read so many compaints about and the King HSIs which I seem to read about problems servicing as well. (maybe i'm wrong?). And all have mid time engines.  I have to assume most have tanks that are getting long in the tooth and in general don't know what othe Gremlins might be hiding inside.  So I'm thinking I end up better financially and in quality of the plane to go ahead and do the upgrades.

 

[KSMooniac]

Sticking with the devil you know is often the best choice. With that much time in the engine I agree that going for an exchange sounds like a good idea.

None of our planes are investments! Best we can hope for is to trade the improvement and maintenance costs for enjoyable experiences and useful travel. Keep an eye on the market value while you develop your plan, but best case you don't end up absurdly upside-down as soon as you're back flying... Then go enjoy YOUR plane!

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[steingar]

You'll loose the investment in the aircraft if you try and sell it sans engine.  The real question is how much do you like your aircraft.  If you do all your upgrades you'll be upside down on the aircraft.  On the other hand you'll have a Mooney Chaparral with brand new engine and up to date avionics, a very nice aircraft indeed.  If you turn around and sell it any time soon you'll take a bath.  Keep it and you'll still talk a bath, but after you've gotten extensive use of a really nice aircraft.

[larryb]

In the reasonable future, do  you want a turbocharged aircraft? Do you want FIKI? Do you want to fly higher/faster/farther?  These are the things your current airplane never will do. If you want them, then best to sell the F after replacing the engine and save the avionics upgrade for the new plane. But if you don't want those things, then you may as well enjoy the new engine your F will soon have.

 

[carusoam]

Epic Mooney Cross-road Ahead.....!

1) Existing Mooney is in need of some investment...

2) Getting an engine for it...

3) Getting an instrument panel for it...

4) Just add paint... and some new interior materials... it will make a nice forever-plane... Do a PPI level of corrosion search before committing.....

If the plane qualifies for what you want to fly for the next decade... it makes sense to spend some money on it...

If this isn’t the plane you want for the next decade... think a lot about it before spending on it...

When I reached this cross road... my bare, naked, worn, M20C... turned into a really nice M20R... 

 

MS has resources if you want to sell ‘as is’....

Lots o choices when you get to the crossroad...

what’s next?

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

It’s a tough position, but the fundamental thing you should decide if it’s your forever plane.   If it is, it makes things a little easier.  At 1800 smoh, you may have thought a major would be coming up, but now just a little earlier than expected.   

[bob865]

@Browncbr1 you hit the nail on the head.  I was hoping to get another 1000 hrs from it.  I wanted to be the fabled 2x tbo guys, but there was so much that just didn't feel right.  I can't put my finger exactly on it, but I had the feeling some extensive engine work if not a full overhaul was soon.  Just not this soon.  I wanted 1-2 more years.

 

@larryb and @carusoam.  I was weighing my options.  As with anything, when you're looking you dins all kinds of 'neat' stuff.  I was struggling to seperate Wants and Needs.  When I get down to it, I have never flown at turbo altitude and have no desire to.  On the east coast our highest peak is only 6k ft.  I can easily handle that in my E.  Plus the added expense of oxygen systems doesn't fit my flight profile.  Maybe a J?  The extra speed would be nice, but is buying a whole airplane worth 20-30 mph?  Nice or Need?  In the end, my E fits my mission, it just needs avionics.  For a similar cost I could get a well equipped J, but all the equipment would still be 20-ish yrs old or older.  If I upgrade, it's all brand new.  So the decision became devil you know with brand new electronics and 30mph slower or devil you don't with old avionics and 30mph faster.

[Oldguy]

21 minutes ago, bob865 said:

Maybe a J?  The extra speed would be nice, but is buying a whole airplane worth 20-30 mph? 

Don't tell my plane I said this, but your E with some speed mods would probably keep up fairly well with my J. We both have the IO-360, but I think I am a bit heavier. I flight plan for 150 kts., regularly fly LOP, and typically am within 2-3 kts. of planned airspeed over a 3 hour flight. I have run it ROP and pushed over 160 kts., but for that extra 10 kts. it drank a lot of 100 LL.

If you can get the avionics you want in your plane and the newer engine, you will have something you have known for as long as you have had it but now with the equipage to get several more years out of it.

I count myself to be one of the luckier owners who was able to get a plane with excellent maintenance over its life before me, so I have had no large unexpected expenses over the ~7 years I have owned it. And while I have put $$$ into the avionics and now the interior, it has been by choice and not necessity.

[drapo]

@bob865 I just went through almost the same experience with my 65 M20E.  I bought it 9 yrs ago with a 1200 SNEW engine from the 70s and thought it was the weak point of the airplane. Along the years, I put some money in the panel, some more AMUs in upgrades in the electric system and some more in the suspension. Last annual, at around 1600 SNEW on the engine, I got lots of metal in the oil and had to decide to open the case and change the camshaft and lifters or go for the full overhaul.

My final decision to overhaul was based, first on economic and second on personal preference. Economically , with the engine situation, and altough I had updated a few items, as it sat, the Mooney was worth under $40k, maybe around $35K. Since I didn't want to stop flying and that amount would not buy me a trouble-free airplane, that  part of the decision was an easy one. Second, I love the Super 21 for what it is, a fast, reliable and fuel efficient 2+2 passenger airplane. I flight plan at 145kts and get under 10gph, flying mostly LOP.

While the engine was being overhauled, we found some corrosion in the wing, which added some more money to the equation, so the investment came up to around $55K.  I would suggest a thourough corrosion inspection before dropping another $70k into that airframe. But as other have said, if you're planning on keeping that Mooney for some time, put the money in it, but if you're thinking of going for a faster, bigger or high altitude capable airplane, then put it on the market for you won't be able to recuperate more than 50% of your investment.

Good luck with whatever decision you take!

[kris_adams]

With 1800 hours, I'd probably send it to Jewel unless you have another trusted engine shop.  While you might not have been considering a major now, I think you'd be throwing good money after bad with anything less-especially if you are thinking about selling.  There are a ton of things to consider.  You could always have the engine shop tear it down and then give you the options, IRAN with new/replacement case vs MOH. 

Good luck and sorry you're having unexpected issues.

-KA

Edited December 19, 2019 by Kris_Adams