First post: Falcon can't find me an underwriter!

[Raptor05121]

Find a CFI with his own insurance and log 10-20 hours in the plane first. A few might open up to you. I'd highly suggest learning to fly in a trainer. There will be a few landings where you'll be surprised the wheels are still on and you don't need to do that to a Mooney. Insurance companies know that, too.

Also, where in Florida are you?

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Yeah, most of our Mooneys aren't high performance, but even my C sure flies like it is!

The official FAA definition of complex aircraft is one that has retractable gear, flaps and adjustable pitch propellor. It has nothing to do with how complicated the plane or any of its parts may happen to be.

A T38 can climb to 30,000 feet in less than two minutes and it is supersonic. It has a roll rate of 720° Per second.  Yet it it not a FAA defined complex aircraft, nor high performance, and it is a centerline thrust multi rating, you can’t fly a Piper Apache.  
 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Nuke!

You have just found the first of many small hurdles...

You are probably familiar with work arounds from your endless engineering background...

Expect the insurance companies will all want to fit you into some box, statistically...

They put you into one of the first boxes...

They expect a guy that wants to fly... to be young, not own a fast plane, not have a family to support...

Even if you are a smart business owner, with an endless track record of world changing businesses...  it only takes a moment of distraction to make a human error...

The easiest way to separate you from this first box... get training.

Pay close attention to what Parker has to say... he is the MS insider when it comes to insurance knowledge...

It probably isn’t wrecking an airplane the insurance guy is concerned with... it’s the expensive cargo in the seats they are most concerned with...

Good news... you can start training locally in a plane that is built to train in... All those hours can be applied to learning to fly in a Mooney later...

Insurance companies have a way to put the brakes on all the fun projects... for fun see what it cost to insure flying a turbine powered aircraft...

Landing an airplane is similar to turning into a drive way.... only you have to do it at a minimum speed... then stop before hitting the house...    Speed control is everything...

Didn’t anyone in your family mention this stuff to you somewhere along the way?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or insurance guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[Huitt3106]

Find a CFI with his own insurance and log 10-20 hours in the plane first. A few might open up to you. I'd highly suggest learning to fly in a trainer. There will be a few landings where you'll be surprised the wheels are still on and you don't need to do that to a Mooney. Insurance companies know that, too.
Also, where in Florida are you?

This suggestion to start out in a trainer is great advice! I know you can learn in a Mooney and the Mooney should hold up just fine. But, I would have hated to subject my Mooney to some of the landings I had early on in my training! I rented until I got to solo (to beat up the flight school airplane and not my airplane) and then purchased my Cherokee 140 to finish out my private. I think some people on here purchased their Mooney similar to how I purchased my Cherokee.

I know you have different circumstances with a Mooney currently available and you’ve been around aviation but there’s still a learning curve on good landings.

Have you asked your insurance provider what some of the underwriters would require to consider providing coverage for you? If you go without coverage that’s a pretty big risk on your “investment”. It would be good to know if they want you to have your private ticket and X number of hours complex or if you can get X number of hours in a rental complex aircraft and then get coverage (possibly before you get your PPL?).


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[midlifeflyer]

Interesting thread. A friend of mine, student pilot, bought an M20C this past year. Only special insurance requirement was 15 hour of dual in it before he could solo. I'm curious to see what happens at renewal time (he doesn't have it yet).

[Davidv]

It could be worse, I ran into my original instructor at the airport the other day and he said that’s he’s teaching someone how to fly in the owners brand new loaded Cirrus turbo with an insurance cost of $35K.

[jetdriven]

Wow.   At that level he could buy a Cessna 150 and crash it with no insurance. Then get another to finish his license and still be cheaper.  

[Nukemzzz]

8 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Find a CFI with his own insurance and log 10-20 hours in the plane first. A few might open up to you. I'd highly suggest learning to fly in a trainer. There will be a few landings where you'll be surprised the wheels are still on and you don't need to do that to a Mooney. Insurance companies know that, too.

Also, where in Florida are you?

I'm actually in southern Indiana.  My sister, and the plane, is currently an hour north of Panama City Florida.

[Nukemzzz]

12 hours ago, corn_flake said:

Set up rent-to-buy agreement with your sister.  Buy rental insurance during private training.  AOPA is a good place to start for rental insurance.  

I considered this because I don't actually have the plane in my name anyway and I think this means that I can't get my own policy for it anyway.  However, Falcon told me that if I tried to get non-owner now the underwriters would see this as me trying to find a loophole to still be insured.  

[Nukemzzz]

Status update:

For reference i put the hull value at $40k

I'm trying to get added to my sister's plan now.  I think this is my only way at the moment for me to fly this plane.

One other issue...my sister's plan allows for other pilots to fly the plane (Open Pilot), but only if they meet some very stiff requirements:  IFR Rated, 100hrs retractable, 15 hours in the same make and model. Honestly, this means that my instructor isn't covered on this plan either since he doesn't have 15hrs in an M20e.  Can't be more than 1000 people in the world that meet these requirements to the letter.  So if i did train in this plane, with my chosen instructor, I'm not covered until I hit the requirements for myself which would match the FAA PPL requirements for solo and passengers.  Seems risky that.  If i'm going to crash it will be during training.

I do think i should practice landings in someone else' plane.  However, my Instructor thinks it would be fine to train in the Mooney and I shouldn't bother renting since it's best to learn to fly in the plane you are actually going to own.  I honestly can see both sides of the argument and it doesn't matter to me really.

Unfortunately, the equation used to determine if this is a good hobby for me includes insurance costs.  If its $4k a year until i get IFR ratings, then maybe I should stick to racing motorcycles!  So sorting out how much this will cost will determine really if a Vintage Mooney is a good idea for me, and if flying is worth the expense to me.  On the other hand, I don't like how insurance companies are squeezing the hobby and potentially putting it at risk.  But giving them my money anyway isn't the best way to combat this.

Maybe i just need to get renter insurance and leave the Mooney in Florida until spring.

 

[mike_elliott]

14 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

I considered this because I don't actually have the plane in my name anyway and I think this means that I can't get my own policy for it anyway.  However, Falcon told me that if I tried to get non-owner now the underwriters would see this as me trying to find a loophole to still be insured.  

I wouldnt call it a loophole, I would call it a non owned policy like the underwriters do. They may still elect not to insure you based on your Total time of 0 and make and model time of 0, but wouldnt classify it as a "loophole"

[steingar]

I like the trainer idea.  Take some time off, get your rating in a Skyhawk or something.  You should be insurable with a PPL, even if low time.  They'll likely ask for some extensive dual, but you'll want that anyway.  The other thought is to check with Avemco.  They don't work with brokers, you buy insurance form them directly.  Perhaps they'll have a policy for you.

[LANCECASPER]

57 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

Status update:

For reference i put the hull value at $40k

I'm trying to get added to my sister's plan now.  I think this is my only way at the moment for me to fly this plane.

One other issue...my sister's plan allows for other pilots to fly the plane (Open Pilot), but only if they meet some very stiff requirements:  IFR Rated, 100hrs retractable, 15 hours in the same make and model. Honestly, this means that my instructor isn't covered on this plan either since he doesn't have 15hrs in an M20e.  Can't be more than 1000 people in the world that meet these requirements to the letter.  So if i did train in this plane, with my chosen instructor, I'm not covered until I hit the requirements for myself which would match the FAA PPL requirements for solo and passengers.  Seems risky that.  If i'm going to crash it will be during training.

I do think i should practice landings in someone else' plane.  However, my Instructor thinks it would be fine to train in the Mooney and I shouldn't bother renting since it's best to learn to fly in the plane you are actually going to own.  I honestly can see both sides of the argument and it doesn't matter to me really.

Unfortunately, the equation used to determine if this is a good hobby for me includes insurance costs.  If its $4k a year until i get IFR ratings, then maybe I should stick to racing motorcycles!  So sorting out how much this will cost will determine really if a Vintage Mooney is a good idea for me, and if flying is worth the expense to me.  On the other hand, I don't like how insurance companies are squeezing the hobby and potentially putting it at risk.  But giving them my money anyway isn't the best way to combat this.

Maybe i just need to get renter insurance and leave the Mooney in Florida until spring.

 

I think emotion is controlling your decisions (guilty here on many occasions). You are asking an insurance company to insure a pilot (which you are not yet) on a complex airplane in which you have zero time. They would be crazy to write that policy. There isn't a premium you would be willing to pay that would make sense for them.

If your sister is in a hurry to sell it and you can afford it, make a deal with her and deposit some money in escrow and continue to insure it, at your expense. in her name since the airplane will not be transferred yet, understanding that the airplane will not be flown (she may not have to pay for in-motion coverage).

Go get your medical, take your written and get 15 hours with a local instructor in a rented airplane and see if this is what you want to do. Then re-assess and see what it would take. At this point, if this is something you want to pursue the rest of your life, then a couple months and a few thousand dollars won't make any difference at all. 

[59Moonster]

47 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

If its $4k a year until i get IFR ratings, then maybe I should stick to racing motorcycles!  So sorting out how much this will cost will determine really if a Vintage Mooney is a good idea for me, and if flying is worth the expense to me. 

 

All depends on how deep your pocket book is. I was able to start my ppl and end my IFR in less than 11 months. Could have been a lot less. Insurance sucks. I was looking at a 1954 Bonanza which is high performance and complex but they wanted $3k for insurance (pre IFR rating). Hard to pull that when you are looking at paying 10% of the purchase price for insurance. 

Was quoted about $1k on an old piper cherokee 140 but that fell through.

Then I found my M20A and bought it. One insurance company wouldn't even get me insurance on it. Finally got a quote for $3800 with 0 hours retract time about 140 hours total still wasn't IFR rated.

They wanted 15 hours dual, then 10 hours solo before flying anyone.

So I finished my IFR. Flew my plane for 25 hours and got re-rated for $2.5k no dual. no solo.

Still sucks but it is what it is. Since you are still learning it creates an even bigger risk for them.

 

Ask the insurance if the CFI needs to have hours in M20 (any model) or specifically the M20E.

 

My advise, buy a cheap ass plane in annual, fly the hell out of it and worse case scrap it at the end. Once you have your PPL get some hours in it before insurance quote, then get the plane you want.

 

[Marauder]

16 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

There is a long and crazy story behind all of this but I'm going to cut to the chase... 

I'm in the process of purchasing a 1966 M20e from my sister and have plans to train for my PPL in this aircraft.  I'm working on the details of getting it to Indiana from Northern Florida and I've located a hangar.  Today I hit a snag in my plans.... I requested an insurance quote from Falcon and just called to see why I've not heard anything and they told me the following:

• 10 underwriters have refused me and I'm probably not insurable at this moment.
• The market is changing fast right now, prices are climbing, underwriters are becoming more picky.
• Retractable gear is an issue for me getting insured
• Vintage Mooney is an issue because parts are hard to find and I quote: "hangar rash can be a total loss"

I hired an instructor to let me fly it around last week to verify that I wanted to buy it.  I liked it and I'm ready to go but I'm worried I'm going to have to train in a rental before I can get this thing.  

Side note... I'm sorry, but I don't see how a constant speed prop and retractable gear are considered "complex".  I like that I can control RPM with one knob and power with another, and It's harder to turn my washing mashing on at the house then to put this gear down!  Maybe "complex" is just being over dramatic? :-)

My background, as this matters some for insurance:

• 42yrs young
• No medical issues or risks
• Professional Mechanical Engineering (Currently an Engineering Manager) 
• Beyond perfect credit rating...maxed out.
• My father is a pilot and I rode all over the country with him my whole life.  I understand more than the average person...just need to formalize things and finally get my licence.

Anyone else have an issue getting insurance in a Vintage Mooney lately?  How about Insurance in a complex high performance rated plane as a Student?  Is the latter my real issue?

Crazy post to start off with on this forum I know.  If you all can help me out I'll have a Mooney in a couple of weeks and I'll hang out here more in the future!

 

Nuke - something isn't right about these refusals. There are a number of other people in your situation who are able to get insurance coverage. I saw your reasons above for the refusal. Do you have anything in your background that could be playing a factor? I ask this because in my line of work, we sometimes discover factors that come into play whether we will engage with a perspective relationship. Parker, who is a broker, probably can help you understand what they may be looking at beyond what you posted above.

[Nukemzzz]

41 minutes ago, 59Moonster said:

 

My advise, buy a cheap ass plane in annual, fly the hell out of it and worse case scrap it at the end. Once you have your PPL get some hours in it before insurance quote, then get the plane you want.

 

All good advice.  I consider this M20e a "cheep ass plane'.   I think what i really need is just liability to protect my family and estate some and move on with this.  I wonder if dropping hull value will unstick this.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, Nukemzzz said:

I think what i really need is just liability to protect my family and estate some and move on with this.  I wonder if dropping hull value will unstick this.

If you haven't spoken with @Parker_Woodruff on the phone yet, all of this is just throwing darts in the dark. In fact, your next post should be... "I spoke with Parker. I now fully understand the situation, and this is what we've worked out"

But of course, this has been mentioned a few times already...

[Nukemzzz]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

I think emotion is controlling your decisions (guilty here on many occasions). You are asking an insurance company to insure a pilot (which you are not yet) on a complex airplane in which you have zero time. They would be crazy to write that policy. There isn't a premium you would be willing to pay that would make sense for them.

If your sister is in a hurry to sell it and you can afford it, make a deal with her and deposit some money in escrow and continue to insure it, at your expense. in her name since the airplane will not be transferred yet, understanding that the airplane will not be flown (she may not have to pay for in-motion coverage).

Go get your medical, take your written and get 15 hours with a local instructor in a rented airplane and see if this is what you want to do. Then re-assess and see what it would take. At this point, if this is something you want to pursue the rest of your life, then a couple months and a few thousand dollars won't make any difference at all. 

What you are describing is the most logical path.  Sometimes I have an issue with falling in love with a path and I have a hard time changing my mind.  I bought sportbikes years ago partly because I reasoned I could save on gas vs a car when travelling.  lol  Your plan above is most likely where I'm going to land on this. (Pun intended)

[chriscalandro]

Based on what I’m seeing here you have a little bit of a poor attitude and some knowledge gaps on the subject. 
 

no way in hell would I hire an instructor with 0 experience in model, for an airplane I just bought with 0 flying time. 
 

So far this looks like a path that ends in the scrap yard and bent metal. 
 

go get some time in something else, Find someone with Mooney time to teach you, or just don’t do it. Disaster is almost never the result of one single thing, but a series of things. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by chriscalandro

[Davidv]

I’m sure others have said the same but just go to any flight school, learn how to fly a 172 or similar, get your license and then buy the plane you want.  Do you really want to be doing touch and goes, simulated engine outs, “non-greaser” landings ect... in your own airplane as a student just learning for the first time?  The additional cost of renting a 172 or Cherokee is nothing compared with the cost of breaking something on a 1960s plane...

I hate to say it but the flight school planes are meant to take a certain amount of abuse and (should be) maintained accordingly.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Davidv

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

One other issue...my sister's plan allows for other pilots to fly the plane (Open Pilot), but only if they meet some very stiff requirements:  IFR Rated, 100hrs retractable, 15 hours in the same make and model. Honestly, this means that my instructor isn't covered on this plan either since he doesn't have 15hrs in an M20e.  Can't be more than 1000 people in the world that meet these requirements to the letter. 

The Open Pilot Warranty requirements quoted above are not unusual or restrictive, they are perfectly appropriate. If your instructor doesn't have 15 hours in a M20E he should not be instructing you in that airplane. The insurance company is 100% right in this instance.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

.Honestly, this means that my instructor isn't covered on this plan either since he doesn't have 15hrs in an M20e.  

 

 

15 hours in type for an instructor isn't nearly enough for an instructor to teach you how to fly the Mooney.  THAT is not a Mooney specific instructor.  You need to find someone else for the transition training and go back to your preferred instructor later.

[LANCECASPER]

51 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

What you are describing is the most logical path.  Sometimes I have an issue with falling in love with a path and I have a hard time changing my mind.  I bought sportbikes years ago partly because I reasoned I could save on gas vs a car when travelling.  lol  Your plan above is most likely where I'm going to land on this. (Pun intended)

You are even better at justifying than I am. I never once tried to convince myself that my sport bikes were for anything other than taking care of my need for speed . . Lol (But I also never ride without helmet, boots, gloves, leather jacket with armor in the right places and armor under my riding pants. I want every chance if I have to throw the bike. Still with all of that the risk gets harder to accept every year.)

[ilovecornfields]

23 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

The Open Pilot Warranty requirements quoted above are not unusual or restrictive, they are perfectly appropriate. If your instructor doesn't have 15 hours in a M20E he should not be instructing you in that airplane. The insurance company is 100% right in this instance.

^^^^^^I could not agree more. Maybe if 10 insurance companies don’t think you’re ready to fly that plane safely but you think you are then one of you is wrong.

I’m sorry, but your “what’s so complex about a complex aircraft?” attitude makes me think that you don’t appreciate the inherent risk involved in flying complex (almost)high-performance airplanes.

I thought I was a pretty awesome pilot when I had 250 hours. Now I realize how little I knew back then and how much I still don’t know.

You’ve been given good advice. Learn to fly. Then buy a plane. You may be surprised how with 50 hours and a PPL you suddenly become insurable. Then you can find an instructor who knows how to fly the Mooney to actually teach you something. 

I think my open pilot policy might give you a heart attack...

[larrynimmo]

before you "pull the trigger" recognize that flying is an expensive hobby.   I figure my fixed costs (277 monthly for a hanger, 2,000 for insurance, 2,500 annual) , repair allowance, engine hour allowance, fuel, oil, tire and brake reserve it costs me $16,000 to fly 100 hours @$160 (engine hours).  I actually fly more than that and my cost for over 100 hours is about $100 an engine hour.  and please realize that these costs are not for those fancy avionics upgrades...that's a separate cost!

now you look at being less than a 50 hour pilot and the costs per hour really skyrocket because of the fixed costs....

not to even mention the cost to get physicals, CFII training, ground school, DPE fees....

Edited December 5, 2019 by larrynimmo
adding more info