M20K231 Overhaul recommendation

[Seattlekiddoc]

Hello Group.  I have an '82 M20K231 that is past TBO and (though running great with good compressions, oil analysis and bore scope,) my financing requires I get the engine overhauled this year.  I have a good quote from Bob Vondersaar at "Lycomingoverhaul" in texas and am wondering if anyone has had experience with this shop?  Also any other shops that do TSIO360LB overhauls closer to the northwest would be appreciated.  I have looked at getting the factory remain/new engines from Continental but after adding back a wastegate and gamijectors the price is beyond what I'd like to do right now.  Thanks!

www.lycomingoverhaul.com

Dave

[DonMuncy]

45 minutes ago, Seattlekiddoc said:

Hello Group.  I have an '82 M20K231 that is past TBO and (though running great with good compressions, oil analysis and bore scope,) my financing requires I get the engine overhauled this year.  I have a good quote from Bob Vondersaar at "Lycomingoverhaul" in texas and am wondering if anyone has had experience with this shop?  Also any other shops that do TSIO360LB overhauls closer to the northwest would be appreciated.  I have looked at getting the factory remain/new engines from Continental but after adding back a wastegate and gamijectors the price is beyond what I'd like to do right now.  Thanks!

www.lycomingoverhaul.com

Dave

 

Dave,

I generally hate it when someone asks a question and everyone pops up questioning why he doesn't do something else instead, but I can't resist. It is none of my business how your financing requires an overhaul now, but I would be seriously trying to figure out how to avoid overhauling it now. You may very well have several (perhaps many) good years of life left in your engine. With regular oil analysis, and bore-scoping, there is very little chance of this becoming a safety issue. It just pains me to see someone throwing away engine hours when it is almost certainly unnecessary.

[Mark89114]

Anybody ever heard of this before?  Seems odd to me.  As long as insurance covers the note I wouldn't think they care that much.  

Sorry I didn't answer your question, as I have nothing to add about that.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Mark89114

[cferr59]

I initially read that as your fiance was requiring it and was thinking "how does she know how much engine time it has?".  I've never heard of this financing thing!  I don't really know any engines shops out west.

[aaronk25]

Take a perfectly good running engine apart that is being monitored closely??? NO WAY! Is finding a different finance company to pay off current loan and refinance it in the cards? That comes to mind first!


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[carusoam]

To add to the oddities...

Having anyone,  fiancé, finance, insurance, home office, practice, or anyone else ask for an OH...

Don’t mention the words infant mortality rates of new engines...   

Sorry, not familiar with your OH provider...

I ran a search around MS and did not find any references for the OH guy either...

Best regards,

-a-

[whiskytango]

I would send the finance company a copy of Mike Busch's book on Engines, and let them know there are good reasons for not doing an overhaul on an engine that doesn't need one.

[MarkD34M]

Perhaps it has to do with perceived "value", where the financing organization wants to be protected from a hull value? Runout engine = worth significantly less on the market should they need it? Speculation only....

 

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, Seattlekiddoc said:

Hello Group.  I have an '82 M20K231 that is past TBO and (though running great with good compressions, oil analysis and bore scope,) my financing requires I get the engine overhauled this year.  I have a good quote from Bob Vondersaar at "Lycomingoverhaul" in texas and am wondering if anyone has had experience with this shop?  Also any other shops that do TSIO360LB overhauls closer to the northwest would be appreciated.  I have looked at getting the factory remain/new engines from Continental but after adding back a wastegate and gamijectors the price is beyond what I'd like to do right now.  Thanks!

www.lycomingoverhaul.com

Dave

 

Not that this means a lot, but attention to detail is important to me. I wonder if the shop owner ever looks at his own website. There are menus along the top that don't even function along with numerous broken links within the menus that do work. It would be much better not to have a website than to have that one.

That being said I agree with the commenters that if it's running well, don't tear it apart. I would much rather fly in an airplane at or above engine TBO where the engine is well maintained and running well than jumping into an airplane that just had a shop overhaul by someone I've never used before.

Is there a clause in the finance contract that says it must be overhauled at TBO? If so please share the language of that on here.

[gsxrpilot]

I will likely overhaul the TSIO360 in my M20K sometime in 2020. I plan to use http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm

[DonMuncy]

How many hours do you anticipate getting from it.

[GeeBee]

I have to agree with others that if it is running good and has good analytics, no reason to pull it.

That said, I consider Gann Aviation in Lafayette, GA to be the best boutique shops in the business. Might call them for a quote. Carlus has built two engines for me and they are incomparable.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I'll be right at TBO. The engine is running fine, it's just leaking a more oil than I'd like. I'd also like to complete the Encore conversion. All that and being right at TBO is pushing me to go ahead and pull the engine for the overhaul and take care of everything else at the same time.

[Seattlekiddoc]

Thanks for the advice. I agree that TBO is not a set deadline but it is in my finance terms that, because it was about 200 past TBO when purchased, they would finance the overhaul but has to be done within one year. Yes, I’m well familiar with Mike Busch’s writings on this topic and am using Savvy for this first year. I would add the TSIO360LB is not known for its longevity past TBO given the turbocharger with fixed waste gate and heating. Right now we’re either 200 or 400 past TBO depending on if you go by the original Continental recs or the more recent. If I didn’t have to do overhaul on their timeline, I’d just keep watching oil and performance closely - no set time in mind.

[thinwing]

That’s very unusual loan terms...learn something every day

[KSMooniac]

So did you get a loan with some extra cash to fund an overhaul, and a time limit to complete it?

Jewell has lots of good reviews from others. Powermasters in Tulsa gets rave reviews from many in the Beech world running bigger Continental engines.

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[ZuluZulu]

A friend swears by Victor Aviation in Palo Alto.  He had his M20C overhauled there.

[Volzalum]

33 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

So did you get a loan with some extra cash to fund an overhaul, and a time limit to complete it?
 

That makes considerably more sense than a "requirement" to get the engine overhauled at TBO even if running well.

[carusoam]

Continental updated their TBO times... extending a few. But, they also included what needs to be done to expect the extended TBO...

Something like run the engine about 100+ hours each year... check the Continental website for clarification...

It isn’t magic,  engines like to be run...

Unfortunately, it costs time and money to do it consistently...

Flying around in an M20K... it takes even more flights because not enough time is wasted going slowly... 

My IO550 has an extended TBO as well. Nice, but the hours are more challenging to get lately...

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[231LV]

I just had my engine OH'd last year at Ly-Con in Visalia CA. It was upgraded from the TSIO-360-GB to the TSIO 360-LB1B new service limits. Great customer service. After all the worn and broken parts were replaced, the cost came out about the same as if I had done a Continental Reman. Of course, a Reman would have saved me consdierable time as the plane was down for about 5 months.

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/20/2019 at 10:31 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'll be right at TBO. The engine is running fine, it's just leaking a more oil than I'd like. I'd also like to complete the Encore conversion. All that and being right at TBO is pushing me to go ahead and pull the engine for the overhaul and take care of everything else at the same time.

Make sure it's not the quick drain that's leaking the oil, they are notorious for that. I just replaced mine and no drips anymore.

[M20kflyer99]

No input on where to OH but I have ran into at least two banks that either required TBO run out engines OH at purchase within time/hours if close to TBO at purchase.  They're looking to protect their investment, not necessarily your wallet.

[Bruce]

Hi y'all,

Old thread, but title is right on topic.  I have a Continental TSIO-360-GB in my 231 and is up for overhaul.  Been casually checking prices and finding so far in the $50K range for a GB overhaul, and one shop gave me a price of $63K that included the LB conversion.  Questions....Is the LB conversion really worth the extra $13K?  Is $13K in the right ballpark for the GB/LB conversion?  I have read that the LB will provide cooler operation.  I have run my GB LOP and seldom do the temps ever get near 380.  Any other pros or cons?  Thanks.

Bruce

N231CH

 

[DonMuncy]

It sounds like you are doing fine with the GB. If you are going to keep the plane forever, you might want to stay with it. If you ever sell the plane (or before another OH), you are likely to take a hit in excess of $13K on the sale price. In my opinion, the GB got a worse reputation than it deserved because not many pilots had learned engine management at the time. 

I am also unsure whether up-dating to an LB costs that much. Are you sure it was not the difference between two engine shops?

[231LV]

The LB upgrade is more desirable for a buyer and the LB definitely runs cooler. I saw around 40-60 degree drop across my cylinders going from the GB to LB. I ran the GB LOP and up high, I had to work to keep the hottest CHT below 380 degrees. The LB running LOP at the same altitudes see the hottest CHT running closer to 335 -340 degrees. On an earlier post, I commented that the overhaul after parts replacement worked out to the same price as Continental was asking for a reman...around $55k. At the end of the day, it's your call. My old GB was still running and had decent oil analysis but it was leaking oil and started having small "hiccups"  that required shop visits and planted small doubts in the back of my mind on whether I would trust the engine on longer flights.....Once I made my decision, it was "balls to the wall"!