Surefly ignition

[AGL Aviation]

I'm curious about how the push-to-start function works now. I assume it's exactly the same- you must still push to start? Would be nice to be able to swap out that ignition switch for the simpler one- is that addressed in the instructions, if you are replacing the left magneto on a shower of sparks system?

It works just like it did before. When you push the switch it grounds the right magneto and engages the starter motor. The left mag is replaced on the shower of sparks. There is no permission granted in the STC to alter the switch configuration. The SIM is designed to work with whatever original switch each model has.


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[rbridges]

49 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

On my plane, a M20E with SoS, we replaced the the left mag and disabled the SoS. The start key was not changed out and works the same as before from the pilot's perspective. I think there was some change to the wiring to/from the switch but @AGL Aviation could answer that detail.  

I was going to ask which mag you changed.  Basically disable the SOS?  Is any of that stuff removed?

[AGL Aviation]

Yes, it’s disabled. Removal is an option according to instructions. Bob’s still remains intact (just disconnected) mostly because it seems to be the first thing they bolt to the back side of the firewall... very labor intensive to remove it.


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[Bob_Belville]

10 minutes ago, AGL Aviation said:

Yes, it’s disabled. Removal is an option according to instructions. Bob’s still remains intact (just disconnected) mostly because it seems to be the first thing they bolt to the back side of the firewall... very labor intensive to remove it.


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I'm not sure but It might be easier to remove the SoS on a vintage Mooney that has not changed windshield to 201 style and still has avionics access panels in front of windshield.

[AGL Aviation]

I'm not sure but It might be easier to remove the SoS on a vintage Mooney that has not changed windshield to 201 style and still has avionics access panels in front of windshield.

Yes, it’d be much easier. I should’ve specified that Not enough coffee today


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[Bob_Belville]

Just now, AGL Aviation said:

Yes, it’d be much easier. I should’ve specified that Not enough coffee today


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Pot still on? I'm headed that way!

[AGL Aviation]

Pot still on? I'm headed that way!

It sure is! See you in a few!


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[Marauder]

Yes, it’s disabled. Removal is an option according to instructions. Bob’s still remains intact (just disconnected) mostly because it seems to be the first thing they bolt to the back side of the firewall... very labor intensive to remove it.


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It’s a pain to get to. It’s mounted on my 75F on the back of a panel that is part of a removable portion of the firewall. The engines side has the voltage regulator, RF filter and other stuff attached to it. If you have the SWTA 201 conversion, you have a small access panel that at least you can see the SoS.





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[Marauder]

It works just like it did before. When you push the switch it grounds the right magneto and engages the starter motor. The left mag is replaced on the shower of sparks. There is no permission granted in the STC to alter the switch configuration. The SIM is designed to work with whatever original switch each model has.


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Do you know if the STC restricts you from having one of these?




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[carusoam]

What was KP’s friend’s other question... I think I heard...?

Electronic ignition for the IO550?

+1 on the fancy ignition switch update...

was that one click or two..? Memory fades to black waiting for the mag check time to elapse...

Best regards,

-a-

[McMooney]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Do you know if the STC restricts you from having one of these?




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I want one of these omg next annual

[McMooney]

here's min e, looks tough but took about the same time as installing any other mag

[AGL Aviation]

Do you know if the STC restricts you from having one of these?




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This looks like the switch that can come with the Electroair conversion. The Surefly instructions use the existing Bendix switch.


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[jamesm]

Curious question...

So electroAir makes a  stc replacement for bendix switch for a 2 magneto configuration. it's totally separate from electroair ignition system. It was designed to replace the bendix key switch and has a STC. However electroAir  the instructions doesn't cover how it's to be wired. I pointed this out to sales rep at a aviation trade show he was trying to blow me off saying it simple. Until I pulled out electrical schematics and maintenance manual for bendix shower of sparks then I oh  um um. He gives a  number guy who i think is independent contractor that electroAir used to STC 2 magneto bendix start switch setup. A few phone calls back and forth I finally get an electrical schematic that will work with shower of sparks configuration. I  tested it out on the ground at the time  I didn't have a permanent place to mount panel. It works.

So the question is if the STC approved  switch panel which replaces the bendix push to start switch  and I  install Surefly EIS. Would this be a legal installation?

The electroAir STC is only a few pages and very vague.

Thanks

James '67C

[AGL Aviation]

Curious question...
So electroAir makes a  stc replacement for bendix switch for a 2 magneto configuration. it's totally separate from electroair ignition system. It was designed to replace the bendix key switch and has a STC. However electroAir  the instructions doesn't cover how it's to be wired. I pointed this out to sales rep at a aviation trade show he was trying to blow me off saying it simple. Until I pulled out electrical schematics and maintenance manual for bendix shower of sparks then I oh  um um. He gives a  number guy who i think is independent contractor that electroAir used to STC 2 magneto bendix start switch setup. A few phone calls back and forth I finally get an electrical schematic that will work with shower of sparks configuration. I  tested it out on the ground at the time  I didn't have a permanent place to mount panel. It works.
So the question is if the STC approved  switch panel which replaces the bendix push to start switch  and I  install Surefly EIS. Would this be a legal installation?
The electroAir STC is only a few pages and very vague.
Thanks
James '67C

The STC for the Electroair switch (SA04032CH) does not specify that it may only be used in conjunction with another ignition system neither does the installation instructions and is issued to the airframe (nothing about the engine). The STC for Surefly installs with the Bendix turn switch. It’s kind of a grey area in our opinion, falling under overlapping and interfering STC’s.


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[Spurious Moppet]

We got our surefly installed recently. The Bendix ignition switch has been replaced with the EA-15000 switch panel, which is the one for two magnetos (surefly is controlled like a magneto).

The wife prefers push to start without the gymnastics of the old Bendix key switch and I want to encourage her aviation habit by making startup not require three hands.

[Igor_U]

On 11/22/2019 at 10:58 AM, jamesm said:

Curious question...

So electroAir makes a  stc replacement for bendix switch for a 2 magneto configuration. it's totally separate from electroair ignition system. It was designed to replace the bendix key switch and has a STC. However electroAir  the instructions doesn't cover how it's to be wired. I pointed this out to sales rep at a aviation trade show he was trying to blow me off saying it simple. Until I pulled out electrical schematics and maintenance manual for bendix shower of sparks then I oh  um um. He gives a  number guy who i think is independent contractor that electroAir used to STC 2 magneto bendix start switch setup. A few phone calls back and forth I finally get an electrical schematic that will work with shower of sparks configuration. I  tested it out on the ground at the time  I didn't have a permanent place to mount panel. It works.

So the question is if the STC approved  switch panel which replaces the bendix push to start switch  and I  install Surefly EIS. Would this be a legal installation?

The electroAir STC is only a few pages and very vague.

Thanks

James '67C

James, 

I had similar experience with ElectroAir; I've sent them an email with questions and never really got the right answer about replacing our Bendix push to start switch. We exchanged bunch of emails but from my previous work so I have no record of it.

Could you please shear the schematics on MS? I would still be interested to install this switch when I upgrade the LHS panel. Thanks.

[Igor_U]

On 11/25/2019 at 4:33 PM, Frozen Flying said:

We got our surefly installed recently. The Bendix ignition switch has been replaced with the EA-15000 switch panel, which is the one for two magnetos (surefly is controlled like a magneto).

The wife prefers push to start without the gymnastics of the old Bendix key switch and I want to encourage her aviation habit by making startup not require three hands.

I like your panel setup with recessed G5s and I have similar layout planned. Do you know how is the lettering done? Engraving, sticking labels and then clearcoat? 

Thanks.

 

[jamesm]

My main concern is that I  remember to leave right magneto grounded  during start sequence. My other concerns accidentally bumping the switch while in flight.  I have it placed similar in the  the picture above. And of course lack of security.

James

[Spurious Moppet]

47 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

I like your panel setup with recessed G5s and I have similar layout planned. Do you know how is the lettering done? Engraving, sticking labels and then clearcoat? 

Thanks.

 

I printed the placards in clear weatherproof labels then clear coat.

[Ragsf15e]

48 minutes ago, jamesm said:

My main concern is that I  remember to leave right magneto grounded  during start sequence. My other concerns accidentally bumping the switch while in flight.  I have it placed similar in the  the picture above. And of course lack of security.

James

Honestly, I’d have one more concern... not getting them both off after shutdown.  I really like the idea of the mag switches and push to start, but a hot mag scares me.  I think it’s just slightly more difficult to forget to turn the key off and remove it.  Even with that, you could still end up with a hot mag if they aren’t grounded.  Be careful with the prop when you’re moving the airplane!

[jamesm]

38 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

 I think it’s just slightly more difficult to forget to turn the key off and remove it.  

I would agree,

I have added  making sure the master s/w is off  before moving the Airplane back into the Hangar to the check list and was taught to treat the prop as if the mag was always hot.

But usually the one time you don't check check that gets you into trouble.

 

James

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, jamesm said:

I would agree,

I have added  making sure the master s/w is off  before moving the Airplane back into the Hangar to the check list and was taught to treat the prop as if the mag was always hot.

But usually the one time you don't check check that gets you into trouble.

 

James

Not sure if it’s wired differently, but even with the master off, you can have a hot mag(s) with the key in.  I would think that mag switch is the same.  I.e. you could turn off the master in flight and the engine will keep running.

We have a similar but less elegant setup on a trainer that I teach in sometimes and it’s pretty easy to miss the mag switches.  I have seen the airplane moved with a towbar with them on.

[jamesm]

  in my case.....  the master switch is located below the ignition s/w  so when look at the master s/w I just need look  up slightly to make sure  the  key is out. however I gotten to point  that I   pull the key a put in my flight bag subconsciously.

36 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have seen the airplane moved with a towbar with them on.

the tow bar problem scares me especially since our Mooney's nose wheel has  turn radius limits....  you know those  tow  turkeys.

[carusoam]

Looks like there are some inherent safety issues that can be (or need to be) handled differently than having a keyed ignition switch...

1) Mechanical safety for the equipment... trying to start the plane with both mags on...  the ordinary mag will have a tendency to try to fire off before TDC... with the prop slowly turning, this could be problematic...

 

2) Safety for the people that touch the prop... anyone that shuts the engine down using the mixture control... needs to remember to follow-up with the next step... turn off the ignition key, and remove it from the switch... place it in plain view on top of the instrument panel...

 

Since there is no ignition key to place on the glare shield... what pneumonic (?) does one use to know you have shut off both of your mags?

As I aged I found memory devices to be more helpful...  

It is so easy to repeat old habits... like leaving a tow bar in the nose wheel, forgetting to shut-off the ignition switch, or put the keys up where they belong, or move the plane without looking for the keys on the glare shield...

So if I exchange a keyed mag switch for one with actual switches... I think I’ll put the old keyed ignition switch up on the glare shield each time I turn the mags both off... 

See if @irishpilot has some insight on this safety challenge...

Don’t be in rush!

Best regards,

-a-