Factory Closed Down?

[Volzalum]

Hopefully this is not the beginning of the end.

[afward]

If one doesn't need to launch munitions, just about any piston GA aircraft will be cheaper to purchase and operate than the military drones.  Diamond made a very smart play there...

Bring back the M18 as an optionally-crewed sensor platform?  It could work, especially with a modern engine & propeller...

Now, if Textron is looking to purchase, that would be simultaneously terrifying and fascinating for the brand.  Possibly someone else?  Dunno...  I do know that the current ownership reportedly paid about $100M and had plans to invest another $1B total, though most of that investment has likely happened in Zhengzhou, China.

I dunno, I have thoughts, but nothing overly clever or concrete...

[Nick Pilotte]

44 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Right - good thought.

And another example of a GA aircraft maker fitting into the contracts business - 

Diamond adjusted their Diamond DA42 twin diesel aircraft to become a UAV drone that can be flown with or without a human pilot on board.  With its extreme efficiency of diesel engines, and without the weight of humans on board I believe it has a very impressive endurance for loitering airborne for a long time with whatever instrumentation for remote sensing.  It is a much lower cost solution when competing against say a predator drone, and sufficient in many settings.  Very clever of Diamond.  And they sell not huge numbers in military contractor sales but big numbers as far as a small GA aircraft maker is concerned.  Many countries are customers.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=2005

Dominator II - Development of 2009; 28 hour endurance with 899lb payload capability; 190 knot speeds; 30,000 foot operating altitude.

Another thought is invest in manufacturing automation like Daimler Chrysler did with Mercedes-Benz 20 years ago (without the quality compromises they installed and failed with as well).  You invest largely in machines and train the employees to use them.  Production can start and you pump aircraft out on par with Cirrus volumes and cost per unit goes down with every 100 you build.  Base prices went down a little as a result of reduced manufacturing costs once the initial investment in equipment was made. Quality can go up when processes are automated because you have less human intervention.  Market the new Ovation Ultra at $400k base, sell to flight schools, airline training departments, and university flight departments as a Cirrus competitor for less $$ and you can make more profit on the volume if marketed correctly. Get them set up on a reasonable 3-5 year trade schedule and you now have a used market that you can sell and service as well. If you want, bring the planes back to the factory for a Steele Aviation style refurbish to market as a certified used plane with an engine plan and some semblance of airframe warranty
 

Lastly, I know it sucks when new product prices are cut because it instantly devalues existing customer’s products, but from a manufacturing standpoint, the existing customer is now a liability through the warranty period and often won’t be buying enough parts through dealers to maintain a profitable aftersales market once out of warranty. Over 5-10 years used prices will tend to stabilize like everything else anyways. 

[DualRatedFlyer]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

For starters if it wasn't for the British, you wouldn't have a bloody country, lets be honest!

Some would say if it wasnt for the USA you would be speaking bloody german...(if were being honest)

[KSMooniac]

Automation in the Mooney factory for the M20 is a pipe dream. The capital investment would never get paid back, even if the sales price were cut in half. It just won't ever make sense making 5-100 planes per year.

It will take a new design that requires radically fewer hours to fabricate to get the price down to something less absurd.

The alternate path to survival with the M20 is to make enough substantive changes to boost utility, comfort, and value relative to the SR22. The current ownership attempted that with the Ultras, but should've spent that effort reducing airframe weight to boost useful load. They also could've made a wider cabin with the Ultra changes... Or just made the doors bulge out a couple inches. Mooney only wins on our pure speed for modern customers... And there aren't enough of us that value the rest of the Mooney package over the more comfortable SR22 that also carries more.

I hate the chute idea, but it might help sales so long as more payload isn't sacrificed.

The M20 is really stuck... It needs significant engineering and manufacturing improvements to survive, but even with that, more sales are not assured.

The M10 was a great concept but terrible execution. It might've been enough to keep the doors open and pave the way for a modern M20 replacement, but now we'll have to wait for the next ownership...

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[INA201]

Cessna bought the Columbia line after all of the R and D was complete and still couldn’t make it work. It’s about as good as it gets for competing with Cirrus.

[KSMooniac]

Cessna bought the Columbia line after all of the R and D was complete and still couldn’t make it work. It’s about as good as it gets for competing with Cirrus.

And they really screwed it up... It is a fantastic plane.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Nick Pilotte]

You are correct that automating for 5-100 units isn’t feasible. But a thorough market analysis could tell you (company owner) if the market will bear an M20 at a $400k price with minimal changes in a Cirrus-like volume of 3-400 yearly, then you may be able to justify tooling up automation. 

[Hank]

Don't try to automate the whole production line!

Just get a couple of welding robots to do the wings. Use the cost savings from Year 1 to buy another welding robot to make tails. Labor costs go down, quality goes up, throughput to Sales goes up. More sold airplanes makes everybody happy!

[MooneyMitch]

If you would like to read all the previous posts and all the future posts within this thread, please search Mooneyspace from several years ago when we were all pondering what was to become of Mooney Airplane Company, and when we all offered up ideas on how to make Mooney solvent !

You’ll find it all there!  Move along, folks, nothing to see here ! 

[KSMooniac]

The wings and tail aren't welded!

We use automated equipment to manufacture aerostructure at my employer so I'm quite familiar with the concept... And that it just isn't feasible for an M20, nor would it cut the price in half if it were suitable.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[RobertGary1]

Parts are where the profit is. They’ll sell the type certificate to someone for the right to mark up the price of approved parts. I’m not too worried about parts for a fleet this big. It’s building planes where you can lose money. 

 

-Robert  

[bonal]

8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Forget the C182, C210 and Piper Navajo,

I want a P51.  Can I still get factory support for a P51 Mustang when my machine guns need an overhaul?

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/24700307/1944-north-american-p-51-mustang

 

You should be Okay Browning is still producing the M2, finest MG ever made

 

[aviatoreb]

Who was it that said to sell "green" airplanes - that are absolutely raw but air worthy airplanes.  Basic airframe - not even painted - no interior whatsoever. Some kind of plug in temporary panel that the customer doesn't keep - test pilot flies it to a finishing shop of your choice - then its your problem.  How much would that plane cost? (Before finishing).

[Volzalum]

40 minutes ago, INA201 said:

Cessna bought the Columbia line after all of the R and D was complete and still couldn’t make it work. It’s about as good as it gets for competing with Cirrus.

Wonder if there is interest from Textron (since they cancelled the Columbia) in getting back into the low wing market again. They'd be back in front with the fastest again, and have the retractable which was what many of the prospective Columbia pilots wanted. Plus they would get all of the non-mooney capability in the plant to use for their other work.

[tmo]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Certainly in the UK, yes they become a Permit to Fly aircraft and you can manufacture parts as required.  A bit like the old WW2 vintage stuff.

Yes, but PtF negates all the good stuff that comes with a CoA plane - try flying a PtF around Europe...  In the US the homebuilt market works so well because it is one big airspace; we don't have EASA-wide Annex-1 recognition...  If we did, we'd have many more RVs flying around here as well...

[KSMooniac]

Wonder if there is interest from Textron (since they cancelled the Columbia) in getting back into the low wing market again. They'd be back in front with the fastest again, and have the retractable which was what many of the prospective Columbia pilots wanted. Plus they would get all of the non-mooney capability in the plant to use for their other work.

Uh, Textron already has the G36 Bonanza and G58 Baron that they're slowly letting die. Mooney sold more M20's than Textron sold G36's. Textron has no interest at all in building or supporting anything with pistons these days. It's quite sad.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Parker_Woodruff]

Mooney wasted a massive opportunity in the pilot training market with their M10 project that never came to be.

[tmo]

2 hours ago, afward said:

If one doesn't need to launch munitions, just about any piston GA aircraft will be cheaper to purchase and operate than the military drones.

I believe some of the Cessna 337 variants had a provisions for munitions, ranging from machine guns, through bombs, all the way to rocket launchers...

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, tmo said:

I believe some of the Cessna 337 variants had a provisions for munitions, ranging from machine guns, through bombs, all the way to rocket launchers...

Both the Cessna O-1 (L-19) Bird Dog and O-2 Skymaster (337) had hard points for rocket launchers.   I think they were mostly used for target marking rather than as weapons, though.

[MooneyMitch]

26 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Mooney wasted a massive opportunity in the pilot training market with their M10 project that never came to be.

Why it never came to fruition?  Paul Kortapates may have some insight on that subject!

[whiskytango]

2 hours ago, afward said:

If one doesn't need to launch munitions, just about any piston GA aircraft will be cheaper to purchase and operate than the military drones.  Diamond made a very smart play there...

 

There is another opportunity to keep the factory alive.  Would the military be interested in a fast un-armed drone (a lot faster than quad-copters anyway) with a 1,000+ NM range?  My guess is that an Acclaim, with all the pilot/passenger stuff removed, with aux fuel tanks and remote control would be a lot cheaper from a first-cost and operating cost standpoint than a purpose-built turbine.  The military rarely buys anything in small quantities so that could be a reason for automating Mooney production.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

For starters if it wasn't for the British, you wouldn't have a bloody country, lets be honest!

Oh, we'd have a country, but we might be speaking French, or perhaps German (Hessian), or perhaps some form of a Native American dialect. 

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

However we have moved on form having a fuedal system of government many centuries ago and I could argue that our system of government is more to the people than yours which tends to be closer to the corporation and the rich man. but we are not allowed politics on here so I wont,   Over a pint perhaps one day.

It does seem, though, that both of our countries are trying to outdo each other for how quickly and thoroughly we can shoot our own feet off, though.   And highly partisan politics is most certainly supported here in the ads that are shown, but since we aren't allowed, I, too, will refrain.

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

As for your supply of Tea, umm Paul Revere chucked it in the harbour, damn traitor.

Andrew

I think "patriot"  or "revolutionary" is the word you were looking for.  It is interesting that a handful of the same names appear so regularly in our history of that time.     

[INA201]

I looked up job offerings off the Mooney website and there is one available.  My guess is this indicates some optimism.

https://recruiting.myapps.paychex.com/appone/MainInfoReq.asp?R_ID=1893036&B_ID=91&fid=1&Adid=0&ssbgcolor=17143A&SearchScreenID=7751&CountryID=3&LanguageID=2

 

This site gives some insight into the working environment at the factory.  Keep in mind that disgruntled workers may tend to post reviews more. Interesting comments regarding the Chineese management which seems to be one of the biggest underlying issues and an accurate representation .  

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Mooney-Aerospace-Reviews-E6431.htm

 

[Guest]

The Van’s Quick build airframes are assembled in the Philippines.  Stamped, folded and welded parts are sent over and almost complete airframes are sent back.  Lower labor costs are part of a winning package.  

Lower parts count sure helps too.  I remember hearing that a Piper Comanche had twice as many parts as the Piper Arrow which replaced it.  The 1972 flood was the death of the Comanche.

Too high an empty weight and too low a useful load are problems as well.  My Comanche 400 weighs a lot less than most Mooney long bodies, despite its large engine it has a useful load a Mooney can’t come close to.

I don’t know what the answer for Mooney is, but having the fastest piston powered airframe isn’t doing it for sales.

Clarence