kortopates Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 26 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Help me understand this. I thought as long as the finished part (wing spar, in this case) met all the original part design requirements the manufacturer with the type certificate was free to pick and choose whether to build in-house or subcontract out. IOW, I didn't think the FAA certified the production process, just the design. Looking at it another way, would Mooney have to get FAA approval if THEY bought the fancy CNC machine and started using it themselves? Are you telling me they are forced to use hand assembly, and manual Bridgeports since that's how the plane was originally built for certification? After a "manufacturer" get approval for a type certificate like the M20 airframes, next they have to go through another arduous process to get a Production certificate see: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/production_approvals/prod_cert/ To get a Production certificate, they have to develop all their plans, processes, documentation, training plans, QA and testing and on and on for how they're going to produce airworthy parts in accordance with their approved type design. Then the manufacturing process of FAA Approved arts is supervised by the FAA no matter where in the world production is carried out. 1 3 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 The shop I was talking about was ISO 9001. Should be easy to get the changes approved. Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 I just found this image. I thought it was cool. Machinalia by Boris Artzybasheff 1 1 Quote
cliffy Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 NOTHING is easy when it comes to the FAA and a Production Certificate. ISO 9001 means nothing here. 1 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, cliffy said: NOTHING is easy when it comes to the FAA and a Production Certificate. ISO 9001 means nothing here. Why would you say that? The FAA demands that you have a quality system in place. Being ISO 9001 checks all those boxes. BTW, I’m in the process of getting an AIP approved for my plane so I don’t have to do annuals any more. Other than dotting all the “I”s and crossing al, the “T”s, it wasn’t all that hard. They did review all my airplane records and made me amend a few 337s. Quote
chriscalandro Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 It's a good thing a bunch of people on the internet know how to fix Mooney. 2 Quote
MikeOH Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 46 minutes ago, kortopates said: After a "manufacturer" get approval for a type certificate like the M20 airframes, next they have to go through another arduous process to get a Production certificate see: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/production_approvals/prod_cert/ To get a Production certificate, they have to develop all their plans, processes, documentation, training plans, QA and testing and on and on for how they're going to produce airworthy parts in accordance with their approved type design. Then the manufacturing process of FAA Approved arts is supervised by the FAA no matter where in the world production is carried out. Interesting. Thank you for the education. Does this apply to all parts? Say Mooney is fabricating a small flat metal part with some holes in it. Now, they decide to have an outside shop fab the part. Do they have to get the FAA to approve this, and the subcontractor? Quote
Hank Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 Just now, chriscalandro said: It's a good thing a bunch of people on the internet know how to fix Mooney. If only the crowd had some money . . . . . . Quote
chriscalandro Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 Just now, Hank said: If only the crowd had some money . . . . . . I'd watch that show. Quote
Daneshgari Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 Guys. It is not about the technical issues, Mooney has that under control. It is about the process and FTP (First Time Pass) and TPS (Toyota Production System) application. It works. Quote
Daneshgari Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 Liberty ships didn’t improve production technically, they copied Ford production system to reduce the waste and improve FTP. Quote
cliffy Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Interesting. Thank you for the education. Does this apply to all parts? Say Mooney is fabricating a small flat metal part with some holes in it. Now, they decide to have an outside shop fab the part. Do they have to get the FAA to approve this, and the subcontractor? Where, who, how and what all have to be approved by the FAA The part also has to have "traceability" from birth (raw stock) to finished part through incoming inspection and testing, raw material data sheets, coupons for heat treat to out the door delivery, Everything is filed away for future look see by the FAA. ALL PARTS have to be made to a PMA approval system to be made for sale or installation on a certified aircraft (standard parts aside and let's not go there again, please). The factory can't just one day call Joe Blow Machine Shop and have a 100 widgets made for installation on their certified airplane even if it would be cheaper to do it that way. 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 1 hour ago, cliffy said: The factory can't just one day call Joe Blow Machine Shop and have a 100 widgets made for installation on their certified airplane even if it would be cheaper to do it that way. I'm struggling with that. Why can't Joe Blow Machine Shop build to Mooney's print/requirements including traceability and heat treat coupons/data? It seems that if the FAA had to approve every last part and manufacturer (no, NOT standard parts), the manufacturer would have to build everything themselves, or be stuck with a single suppliers, any one of which could stops production until they can get the FAA to approve another supplier. Is the FAA oversight really that bad??? I thought PMA applied only to third party manufacturers that wanted to supply to the market in general; not to a direct supplier for a certified aircraft manufacturer. Quote
carusoam Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 Simply google... father of quality... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming Mr. Deming is the key guy... From building ships during WWII.... To Ford’s Q1... or toyota’s TQM(?).... ISO9000 is the latest world standard/rendition.... There probably isn’t a manufacturing guy on the planet that isn’t familiar... If installing a QC system is too expensive... see what it costs to make products without one.... -WE Deming So... Mooney can go outside to a qualified manufacturer... Or use their qualifying process with a new manufacturer... Or use a new process in house, after it has been qualified... It is amazing how Mooney can keep the Horse in front of the cart.... It takes some really good people coming to work each day... Read Deming’s 14 points... as guys on the internet... we are all familiar... when you tour a manufacturing facility, you may be surprised by how much of the obvious is missing... much of quality happens before it gets to manufacturing... a bunch occurs afterwards in QC... plenty happens automatically in the middle with QA... statistical process control is king! When SPC can’t be used... lots of QC measuring is done... Go Mooney! PP thoughts only, not a quality engineer working in manufacturing... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Blue on Top Posted June 15, 2020 Report Posted June 15, 2020 24 minutes ago, MikeOH said: I'm struggling with that. Why can't Joe Blow Machine Shop build to Mooney's print/requirements including traceability and heat treat coupons/data? It seems that if the FAA had to approve every last part and manufacturer (no, NOT standard parts), the manufacturer would have to build everything themselves, or be stuck with a single suppliers, any one of which could stops production until they can get the FAA to approve another supplier. Is the FAA oversight really that bad??? @MikeOH and all: All are now starting to understand the rest of the story. Every designed part (which excludes standard nuts, bolts, fasteners, etc.) has to be made to Type Design (or equivalent approved) and all processes by each approved manufacturer (yes, there is a process there, too) has to be approved, too. Bring in single sourcing (bad idea for an OEM, as they could be held hostage by an unhappy vendor, and it just gets worse. How does an OEM keep two vendors happy when each vendor is making 5-50 parts a year for 10 to 100 airplanes a year? As in reference to the Production Certificate (PC), if Mooney would move production to Longview, TX (no, not starting rumors) with the identical workers, identical tooling/fixturing and identical processes/procedures, they would still have to requalify for a new/amended PC because the PC is site specific. As a last comment (this time ), yes there are people on the internet that can fix Mooney. 3 Quote
chinoguym20 Posted June 16, 2020 Author Report Posted June 16, 2020 All good information. I had heard that the manufacturing process at Kerrville was highly dependent on people skills and knowledge v tooling and low skilled workers. Is/was that the case @blueontop? Are any of those skills still there since the cuts? Quote
PT20J Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 51 minutes ago, chinoguym20 said: All good information. I had heard that the manufacturing process at Kerrville was highly dependent on people skills and knowledge v tooling and low skilled workers. Is/was that the case @blueontop? Are any of those skills still there since the cuts? North American Aviation is long gone. Probably no one at Cal Pacific Airmotive was alive when the last P-51 rolled off the assembly line. Yet Cal Pacific owns the P-51 type certificate and has parts production approval and can pretty much build one from a data plate. I'm pretty sure that the P-51 was about as labor intensive to build as a Mooney. (If you are ever in Salinas, CA, stop by and ask Lori Atkinson to show you around -- it's a fascinating operation). 1 Quote
Blue on Top Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 @chinoguym20 The manufacturing people in Kerrville were a very talented but more importantly very knowledgeable group, but most have been let go. I was honored to meet and impressed by all of them that I got a chance to get to know. I think the factory is supported with less than 20 people now (being generous). Regretfully, people age as time goes on (and Mooney goes in and out of production). I don't know how many would return if the factory started up again. There is no doubt in my mind that the ones that do return could and would teach the next generations how to build great airplanes. They were very open with me. With that said, I also know that some areas have been completely depleted just due to natural attrition and the layoffs. The M20 is simply a labor intensive design. It was designed when machining was expensive and labor was relatively inexpensive. Today those roles have been reversed with labor being expensive and machining being relatively inexpensive. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are some processes/parts that could be done better and less expensively, but each would have to be looked at on a case by case basis and end to end. It is not a simple task as there are multiple sides to each coin … or die might be a better analogy. A new Mooney would need to be a much flatter organization with very experienced and knowledgeable management. Isn't that the case with all corporations today? In addition (yes there are some things that could be outsourced), Mooney has the capabilities to make ANYTHING out of aluminum sheet and steel tubing. They should not only be building airplanes, they should also be insourcing all the products that other, less competent companies can't produce. Cessna and Beech (now Textron Aviation) have been in business for ~90 years each because they can do it all … although that too is going away with new management/ownership. I wish Mooney all the best and will help anywhere I can. 2 Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Blue on Top said: @chinoguym20 The manufacturing people in Kerrville were a very talented but more importantly very knowledgeable group, but most have been let go. I was honored to meet and impressed by all of them that I got a chance to get to know. I think the factory is supported with less than 20 people now (being generous). Regretfully, people age as time goes on (and Mooney goes in and out of production). I don't know how many would return if the factory started up again. There is no doubt in my mind that the ones that do return could and would teach the next generations how to build great airplanes. They were very open with me. With that said, I also know that some areas have been completely depleted just due to natural attrition and the layoffs. The M20 is simply a labor intensive design. It was designed when machining was expensive and labor was relatively inexpensive. Today those roles have been reversed with labor being expensive and machining being relatively inexpensive. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are some processes/parts that could be done better and less expensively, but each would have to be looked at on a case by case basis and end to end. It is not a simple task as there are multiple sides to each coin … or die might be a better analogy. A new Mooney would need to be a much flatter organization with very experienced and knowledgeable management. Isn't that the case with all corporations today? In addition (yes there are some things that could be outsourced), Mooney has the capabilities to make ANYTHING out of aluminum sheet and steel tubing. They should not only be building airplanes, they should also be insourcing all the products that other, less competent companies can't produce. Cessna and Beech (now Textron Aviation) have been in business for ~90 years each because they can do it all … although that too is going away with new management/ownership. I wish Mooney all the best and will help anywhere I can. I wondered the same thing after the 2008 shutdown........ would there be enough experienced technically knowledgeable folks to return for the next startup (2014). 6 years is a long time..... Turned out there obviously were enough. And yes, those with the experience passed along to the newbies. Not a lot of big manufacturing jobs in Kerrville, so Mooney has some advantage there. Would an experienced work force be available for another start up? Time will tell....if and when it happens. The more time without a new start up, the odds decrease. My heart is with the Mooney story, and with the men and women that built them, and hopefully will build them again! 3 Quote
MrRodgers Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 I'm somewhat familiar with the Mooney spar. It is a bunch of aluminum plates some with bends that are fastened together with Huck bolts and rivets. There are a few machined pieces. I have spent a bit of time at a huge automated sheet metal fabrication facility in North Phoenix supervising the production of some parts for my previous employer (Roche). They have every conceivable CNC sheet metal production tool ever made along with automated riveters. I would estimate they could make that spar in a couple of hours. I do not think your description of the spar is accurate. Don Maxwell can provide a full description from his extensive knowledge.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, MrRodgers said: I do not think your description of the spar is accurate. Don Maxwell can provide a full description from his extensive knowledge. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I like and respect Don a great deal but I’m pretty sure he’s not going to show up here to confirm or contradict anything that Rich has posted. We have many qualified and experienced Mooney maintenance professionals on the site that are not Don Maxwell and they freely give their time and expertise. How and where your airplane is maintained is your business. Maxwell Aviation is an excellent choice. However, it seems like bad form to put forth a post that basically tells a contributor that he doesn't know what he's talking about and that while you yourself are not able to correct him, you know a non-contributor that could set him straight. A quick look at the IPC before posting would have been a good idea... Edited June 16, 2020 by Shadrach 4 Quote
Guest Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 The often told story is that Don is doesn’t frequent MooneySpace because he’s on other forums. I’ve notice he only shows up here if there’s money to be made for him. You’d think with all the praise he gets he’d make a cameo appearance once in a while. Clarence Quote
Danb Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 Low blow doc, Don is on another forum, provides his expertise, like you do, he has contacted me directly by phone and email. Simply put if any one has technical questions just go over to the other forum and ask. However doc I seriously appreciate your experience and guidance. 1 Quote
HRM Posted June 16, 2020 Report Posted June 16, 2020 On 6/14/2020 at 8:48 PM, N201MKTurbo said: I just found this image. I thought it was cool. After all that quarantine, he needed a haircut.... 2 Quote
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