Average annual cost for everything except fuel on a 1960s 1970s era Mooney M20 series

[RobertGary1]

13 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Flying is expensive. Flying a lot, 150-200 hrs per year, and keeping the plane in good repair can increase the yearly cost to a nice new car. Take a newer plane 2000+ to a MSC and my guess is you will see a $4-5k annual. Stuff adds up quick.  

Under $4k at a service center would shock me for any plane. 

-Robert 

[0TreeLemur]

38 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Flying is expensive. Flying a lot, 150-200 hrs per year, and keeping the plane in good repair can increase the yearly cost to a nice new car. Take a newer plane 2000+ to a MSC and my guess is you will see a $4-5k annual. Stuff adds up quick.  

^^^^^^^^^ This

Pre-buy cannot detect when the seal on the tanks is gonna go.   We got unlucky and were standing up when that music stopped playing.   Leaking right main increased suddenly from a thimble full overnight to a half gallon overnight.  A full strip -n- reseal is at least $7500.  Just one example.  I could go into more but I don't want to relive it.

 

[Ragsf15e]

I have had an F for 5 years.  Average has been ~$18k per year including fuel for 80hrs per year.  Had a couple small upgrades in there for waas and adsb.  2 cylinders and a Prop overhaul too.

My hangar is $250/month and my insurance is $1000/year.  I’ve had an msc annual for $10k, and a local IA annual for $3500.  It’s a crapshoot.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Ragsf15e

[skydvrboy]

17 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

I'm trying to justify buying a Mooney versus just continuing to rent less capable planes.

Serious question.  Why do you fly?

If you are flying to building time... rent.  It will be MUCH cheaper to rent a C-152, C-170, or Piper Cherokee than to own a Mooney.

If you are flying to go places, the extra speed of the Mooney may make up the difference.  I was renting a Warrior for $120/hr cruising at 105 kts ($1.14/nm).  My out of pocket owning and operating cost (not including reserves) has been $147/hr cruising at 140 kts ($1.05/nm).  Add in $15/hr for engine reserve and I'm up to $1.15/nm.

[Ragsf15e]

28 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

Serious question.  Why do you fly?

If you are flying to building time... rent.  It will be MUCH cheaper to rent a C-152, C-170, or Piper Cherokee than to own a Mooney.

If you are flying to go places, the extra speed of the Mooney may make up the difference.  I was renting a Warrior for $120/hr cruising at 105 kts ($1.14/nm).  My out of pocket owning and operating cost (not including reserves) has been $147/hr cruising at 140 kts ($1.05/nm).  Add in $15/hr for engine reserve and I'm up to $1.15/nm.

Why you want to own is definitely a good question because it’s very near impossible to make an airplane purchase that makes financial sense.  It’s a money pit, but there are still reasons to own...

[Skates97]

10 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Why you want to own is definitely a good question because it’s very near impossible to make an airplane purchase that makes financial sense.  It’s a money pit, but there are still reasons to own...

We own for a number of reasons, none of which are financial. 

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have had an F for 5 years.  Average has been ~$18k per year including fuel for 80hrs per year.  Had a couple small upgrades in there for waas and adsb.  2 cylinders and a Prop overhaul too.

My hangar is $250/month and my insurance is $1000/year.  I’ve had an msc annual for $10k, and a local IA annual for $3500.  It’s a crapshoot.

Damn, Rags, we must own the same M20F

I've only had my Mooney for just under 2 years.  First year, all-in, was about $18K for just under 100 hours.  Prop reseal (but, no cylinders!).  Hangar is $365/month (SoCal) and my insurance is $1056/year.  MSC annual inspection was $2K with $2.5K in repairs (not all airworthiness issues).  Still need to spend on the ADS-B out

[Bob_Belville]

In the responses above there's an obvious disparity on the definition of "annual". IMO, the "annual" is the inspection by an IA required under part 91. That cost should not include any deferred maintenance and improvements that are done by the A&P coincident with the inspection. It probably should not even include the cost of an oil/filter change. I would say it should include lubrication, wheel bearing repacking and similar PM. Our pros might tweak my definition.

My annuals have never exceeded 2 AMU for the shop to do it all and are usually well under 1 AMU for owner assist in my hangar by our MSC A&P/IA now that I'm equipped and experienced.

Now, when we replaced the windows, added to the fuel bladders, installed CiES level sensors, etc. while the plane was down for annual my bill from AGL was higher but it's confusing, osistm, to lump such $$$ in as a "$10,000 annual".   

I would contend that maintaining a vintage Mooney that's flown regularly and lives in a hangar is not very expensive... once a new owner gets any deferred issues brought up to snuff.

[MIm20c]

@Bob_Belville the problem I have with “well under 1 amu” is the huge delta between that “annual” expense and what comes out of the pocket in a normal year.  An oil change is always done at annuals in my experience even if the oil is only 10 hrs old. What’s the point of separating out the inspection cost if it’s impossible to drop off/pick up your plane at an MSC for under 4K?

[Bob_Belville]

13 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

@Bob_Belville the problem I have with “well under 1 amu” is the huge delta between that “annual” expense and what comes out of the pocket in a normal year.  An oil change is always done at annuals in my experience even if the oil is only 10 hrs old. What’s the point of separating out the inspection cost if it’s impossible to drop off/pick up your plane at an MSC for under 4K?

An oil change is $100 +/-. Include it if you like, it doesn't change my point, does it? For the record, I wouldn't change the oil with 10 hours on it unless it for something like 4 months or more old. 

ISTM that oil, like fuel, is a consumable, pretty easily accounted for on an hourly basis, whereas the cost of the annual is, well, and annual cost and mostly fixed whether you fly 30 hours or 5 times that in a year. If I fly 70 hours a year and change the oil at 35 hours is the mid year oil change part of the "annual" or only the one done while the plane is being "annualed"? If not, why not?

• consumables - fuel, oil, oil filters
• maintenance and repair
• improvements - avionics, instrumentation, paint, interior, airframe mods
• "fixed" cost - annual inspections, insurance, hangar...

Only the first category is directly proportional to hours flown. The second may be somewhat so but planes rust out, they don't wear out so zero hours will not mean zero maintenance in the long run. The 3rd class is mostly discretionary and proportional only to the amount of money available.

TEHO 

[Yetti]

 

[MIm20c]

So as a recap to this thread “average annual (total) cost minus fuel” we have a low of $1k for a pistol whipped annual, outside tie down in the middle of nowhere, and approaches flown with a contractors level and a paper clip floating in a glass of water....to a high of $35k for great maintenance, upgrades, location, insurance, training, and donations to your preferred flying charity. 

I’m going to stick with the advice given above, between a used and new Honda given away every year. 

[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, MIm20c said:

So as a recap to this thread “average annual (total) cost minus fuel” we have a low of $1k for a pistol whipped annual, outside tie down in the middle of nowhere, and approaches flown with a contractors level and a paper clip floating in a glass of water....to a high of $35k for great maintenance, upgrades, location, insurance, training, and donations to your preferred flying charity. 

I’m going to stick with the advice given above, between a used and new Honda given away every year. 

 Everyone would probably fit inside a truncated gamma distribution like this.  (except for a few outliers...)

[Jeev]

On 8/16/2019 at 5:35 AM, Yetti said:

Have 10K in the bank after you purchase.

100 and hour to fly

Hangar 250 - 500

Insurance 1500

Subscriptions

about 2 - 5K to find and get home

Figure about 3k an upgrade per year.

 

This is just about right on to what I spent over 1200hrs and 10 years on my 78 J.  Not including the Paint and interior I chose to do.

[Pilot boy]

On 8/16/2019 at 10:38 AM, 1964-M20E said:

Like the commercial showing the difference between first time parents and 3rd kid parents.

before buying a plane, multiple spreadsheets, countless what if scenarios, check the bank account balance, checking  for free unallocated cash reserves in weekly pay etc.

2 years after buying a plane and you survived your first annual, insurance and hangar rent is paid for another year WTF let's go fly it only cost fuel

Evaluate if you can afford $8k to $15k a year of discretionary spending after the capital investment for the plane itself.  If the answer is yes then find the right plane and buy it

 

Now fly it like you stole it and don't worry about what is cost within reason.

 

 

 

Lol, my wife is a CPA so you can imagine what I'm up against here with the spreadsheets going etc.  Fortunately I do own my own business so $8 to $15k discretionary is doable and I do plan to buy the plane cash.  $12k per year definitely manageable.  Won't help retirement funds any but I'm here to fly. 

[Pilot boy]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:46 AM, steingar said:

You asked for it...

$290/mo hangar= $2400/year

Insurance= $1400/year

Maintenance: last year I spent $1400 + another 2K for some avionics

I only did this because I had a passenger on the Oshkosh trip and I had to know what to charge him.  I came up with $150/hour

Thank you and thankfully my hangar costs around midwest are much cheaper!

[Pilot boy]

On 8/16/2019 at 1:12 PM, larryb said:

It is the price of one kid in college or private school.

18 years until I get to this point.  She was just born!

[Pilot boy]

On 8/16/2019 at 1:34 PM, RogueOne said:

Asked and answered by me to you on another thread.  Guess you didn’t like the answer?  $12k/year for maintenance is crazy high unless you buy a P.O.S.  Buy a flying Mooney that has been taken care of and $6k a year...$3k a year for maintenance is HIGH...

Oh i know you did, but I didn't get too many other responses in the other thread since the title was about other Mooney aficionados in Omaha Nebraska.  So I wanted to post a more generic thread to get more maintenance numbers from more ppl.  Wife's a CPA I need more numbers to keep the spreadsheets happy.  No offense intended, I appreciated your answers on both threads

[Pilot boy]

On 8/16/2019 at 4:38 PM, skydvrboy said:

Serious question.  Why do you fly?

If you are flying to building time... rent.  It will be MUCH cheaper to rent a C-152, C-170, or Piper Cherokee than to own a Mooney.

If you are flying to go places, the extra speed of the Mooney may make up the difference.  I was renting a Warrior for $120/hr cruising at 105 kts ($1.14/nm).  My out of pocket owning and operating cost (not including reserves) has been $147/hr cruising at 140 kts ($1.05/nm).  Add in $15/hr for engine reserve and I'm up to $1.15/nm.

I'm very much in the both camps of this.  Initially I'm working on instrument and commercial to build time.  However, long term I'd like to own a cross country machine to get places fast.  I also travel for regular work around the US and the Mooney seems better suited for my job to fly myself around in a somewhat timely way.

[Pilot boy]

On 8/16/2019 at 5:09 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Why you want to own is definitely a good question because it’s very near impossible to make an airplane purchase that makes financial sense.  It’s a money pit, but there are still reasons to own...

Yeah unfortunately this is the tack I'm going with wife difficult sell but I think she gets it as she knows how much I like to fly.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Pilot boy

[Oldguy]

12 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

Yeah unfortunately this is the tack I'm going with wife difficult sell but I think she gets it as she knows how much I like to fly.

I consider myself one of the incredibly lucky ones as my wife recommended we get something faster than the 172 we had so we got the J. Now, as we come up on retirement and are planning trips, the comment "It would be nice if the interior was more comfortable" gave me approval (at least by my standards) to get new carpet, sidewalls, some new plastic and old plastic repainted, and the seats covered in new leather. Throw in the new Avidyne, Aspen MAX upgrades, and a few other new pieces, and she is looking forward to spending even more time in the plane being the radio/GPS operator.

I like to fly, and she like to go places. This has worked out well...

[M20F-1968]

For those of you who are paying about $2000.00 for annuals, I would like to hear more about what those annuals are really like and how they are performed.  

I figure about $800.00 a day, with an annual taking about 5 days.

John Breda

[Amelia]

There are ways to mitigate the fixed costs, chief among them the acquisition of a very good partner. or two. I was fortunate to join wonderful partners in my first Mooney, whose kindness and expertise made the transition from my C172 much easier. They weren’t flying enough to make it worth having, and I would.  Of course, there must be a written agreement about costs, payment, philosophy, scheduling, and the like. It was right there in black and white, no deferred mx, and it would be IFR current. So would all pilots. Tanks would be topped off, any squawks logged and promptly reported to the scheduler. Long trips had priority over local ones. These days, with software to track and schedule, it would be very easy. IF you found compatible and responsible partners, that is. 

 

[steingar]

My annuals in my Cherokee used to be thousands.  When I started doing them myself with an IA they were hundreds.  I can't even imagine what they found wrong with my Cherokee, it ws a clean airplane.  My annuals with the Mooney have been between $1K and $1.5K.  After my experience int the Cherokee, I am not in any way worried.  I think a lot of mechanics are just too damn picky, and replace stuff before it time or fix stuff that ain't broke.  I can't imagine the inspection that takes $4K, but I'll bet cash money they do lots of stuff that really doesn't need to be done.

Edited August 20, 2019 by steingar

[Bob_Belville]

7 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

For those of you who are paying about $2000.00 for annuals, I would like to hear more about what those annuals are really like and how they are performed.  

I figure about $800.00 a day, with an annual taking about 5 days.

John Breda

John, quite a few MSers use @AGL Aviation, MSC at KMRN. Their current flat rate for an annual on a NA Mooney (M20-M20J) is $1840 according to their published list: 

https://aglaviation.com/pricing-rates

That price includes changing the oil but not the cost of the oil or the oil filter which the owner is free to supply if they'd like.

My memory is hazy this morning but I think the flat rate book for an M20 C-J is 32 mh. Not more, might be less.

Lynn Mace has many years experience on Mooneys and catches a lot of stuff overlooked or ignored by non-Mooney mechanics who may have done the previous annual(s).