Fear of Fisk!

**carusoam** · August 13, 2019

The amount of planning, communicating, documenting, Plan B-ing, training, transfer of knowledge-ing.... from the departure airport, to the arrival airport, including conversations with the towers and ground personnel.... and negotiating plan changes due to weather...

And the Letter of agreement (LOA)... Also part of the data package available to each caravanner...

It was like having a POH for the flight... from start-up to shut down and it included some flexibility to operate LOP... if the PIC so desired...

So much planning and executing is involved... it was similar to a Fortune 500 corporate event... no stone left unturned... expect room for human failure... because we are always going to have humans...

As an individual flyer, I would not have been able to get this much done for myself flying through Fiske... something about the airport not being open due to weather... and parking not being available due to sogginess.... it looked like we were the first to arrive...

PP thoughts only, not an experienced formation flyer...

Best regards,

-a-

steingar · August 13, 2019

I've done the FISK arrival for 19 of the last 20 years. Most of them have honestly been nonevents. Follow the NOTAM, follow someone in or don't, do what you're told. Went around once, someone got too close. It was fun.

The last two years have been bad deals. Last year I had already decided if I didn't make it in on that approach I was pointing my nose homeward. I was done circling that damn lake. This year I had to follow a Cessna in at 80...mph. I don't want to beat upon him, I think he was following the guy in from top him at 80. Either way it sure ratcheted up the stress level.

thinwing · August 13, 2019

I’ve flown the Fisk twice ,and obviously with the traffic density,multiple landing runway spacing,it is complete different flying that most of us do during the year.This year ,we decided to opt for Appleton so that when we departed on thurs ,we could be sure of a quick departure west bound.Appletons ramp was very nice concrete and very nicely organized with maybe a hundred or so aircraft parked at a new fbo.Supplied prop tags with contact #s ,fuel requests and departure times made takeoff 5 min after arrival a breeze.Arrival was very easy with the only difference was land and hold short on intersecting runways.Tower was handling 50/60 per hour and doing a very good job.Controllers at my home field would have been traumatized!

Becca · August 13, 2019

16 hours ago, carusoam said:

The amount of planning, communicating, documenting, Plan B-ing, training, transfer of knowledge-ing.... from the departure airport, to the arrival airport, including conversations with the towers and ground personnel.... and negotiating plan changes due to weather...

And the Letter of agreement (LOA)... Also part of the data package available to each caravanner...

It was like having a POH for the flight... from start-up to shut down and it included some flexibility to operate LOP... if the PIC so desired...

So much planning and executing is involved... it was similar to a Fortune 500 corporate event... no stone left unturned... expect room for human failure... because we are always going to have humans...

As an individual flyer, I would not have been able to get this much done for myself flying through Fiske... something about the airport not being open due to weather... and parking not being available due to sogginess.... it looked like we were the first to arrive...

PP thoughts only, not an experienced formation flyer...

Best regards,

-a-

Fwiw - the airport was open on Saturday morning before the late morning storms rolled in. That’s when we arrived, 7 am - had about 4 hrs of good weather to set up and then watch the storm from a restaurant. Parked in Row 520 so really close to the show. Many Bos and Cirri would have been able to get in if they looked at the weather and realized that their formation arrival schedule would be in the middle of a storm and just come in on their own time earlier in the morning rather than waiting for their “slot”. Instead they spent another night at a motel instead of at osh, the downside of formations. Mooney caravan though was basically miraculously timed for arrival this year! I was really happy for the caravaners for that timing it was basically perfect.

that said, I don’t think any midair’s occurred among the thousands of airplanes that arrived via Fisk, one midair occurred out of 62 planes on the caravan. I don’t think that is conclusive evidence that a mass arrival inherently less safe. But that’s not the point of this thread - more that Fisk is safe. That said... I have been a little concerned, as I mentioned in the other thread, about the caravan safety culture given the currrent response, but I’m holding judgment until I see how this is handled in the training and procedure updates and transparency about what happened...

Edited August 13, 2019 by Becca

**Skates97** · August 13, 2019

I'll be at Osh next year. If I can work in the training and Caravan Schedule I may do that. If not I don't have a problem with flying Fisk. From all the descriptions it sounds like it's not much different than the first two years I had my Mooney and was based out of Corona (KAJO). A number of locals refer to KAJO as the wild west and I know more than a few that will not fly into it. The number of planes is obviously different, but no tower, more than a couple planes with no radio (or calls that would be better off with no radio), and just general stupidity often made it "interesting" at Corona.

kpaul · August 14, 2019

1 hour ago, Becca said:

Mooney caravan though was basically miraculously timed for arrival this year! I was really happy for the caravaners for that timing it was basically perfect.

Not really, the Caravan was scheduled to land on Saturday at the same time the storm hit the field. The decision was made, based on the forecast, to stay in Maddison. The Caravan Lead coordinated a new time with Osh ATC for an arrival on Sunday.

Becca · August 14, 2019

10 minutes ago, kpaul said:

Not really, the Caravan was scheduled to land on Saturday at the same time the storm hit the field. The decision was made, based on the forecast, to stay in Maddison. The Caravan Lead coordinated a new time with Osh ATC for an arrival on Sunday.

So the storms were originally not scheduled to get there until 1 pm so it looked like the caravan had the ideal slot at 10 am. And then when the storms came in sooner, the caravan got really lucky Bos canceled their previously planned 1 pm arrival because of the forecast storm arrival, making it available to the caravan, and also that the field gave them the one high and dry spot to park while keeping field closed to everyone else. I don’t think you could’ve gotten any more lucky considering the conditions that day (except if you could have accelerated and gotten there at 8 am before the storms of course...). It was definitely a blessed year IMHO for your arrival plans...

Edited August 14, 2019 by Becca

kpaul · August 14, 2019

Just now, Becca said:

So the storms were originally not scheduled to get there until 1 pm so it looked like the caravan had the ideal slot at 10 am. And then when the storms came in sooner, the caravan got really lucky Bos canceled there previously planned 1 pm arrival making it available to the caravan, and also that the field gave them the one high and dry spot to park while keeping field closed to everyone else. I don’t think you could’ve gotten any more lucky considering the conditions that day (except if you could have accelerated and gotten there at 8 am before the storms of course...)

I honestly have no idea what you are referring to. None of the sequence you listed for the Caravan is remotely accurate. The decision to not fly in on Saturday was made at about 7am, the storms were indeed forecast at the arrival time of 1130, hence the reason the caravan delayed. The Caravan was scheduled to land right after the Cherokees. About half of that formation had their tents destroyed as they attempted to set up camp.

Yes B2OSH delayed through their first arrival window, electing to attempt an 8 PM Saturday arrival, however the airfield never re-opened for grass parking so their leadership decided to cancel their mass arrival. The Caravan did not use the B2OSH landing window on Saturday.

On Sunday, the Caravan was given a 9am land time by OSH ATC. The Caravan was then slightly delayed by EAA because they were unsure where to park 62 ACFT. Initially, the plan was to park the aircraft on a taxiway until a dry enough spot was located. it was not until after the Caravan landed that EAA informed the lead aircraft that they had a parking location available.

There was continuous coordination between the Caravan Lead pilot and OSH ATC and EAA, luck had nothing to do with it.

**carusoam** · August 14, 2019

1) Fisk is pretty safe... it would be hard to say it isn’t and have actual data to support the statement.

2) it can be crazy busy, similar to flying between VORs on a warm weekend, down low, in the North East... so call it uncomfortable for some, or many...

3) Part of the Caravan Plan is a bit hidden... I had to learn what a Madison Bag was...

4) I heard... ‘Don’t forget to pack your Madison Bag’... I didn’t know if I even had a Madison bag...had to look around the house to find something stylish that I could use for an overnight stay... and hold a couple of hundred pages of documents and my iPad...

5) Madison had another stylish convention going on too... if you are familiar with American Girl Dolls... Madison is a style leader... the headquarters for AG is just outside Madison... https://www.americangirl.com/shop/

6) Finding all the extra time... back when I was working... that was more of a precious resource. Retirement helps. Grown kids helps even more...

Free time was available... Madison is where I got to sit and talk with Yves and his copilot Patrick... Another hidden detail... you are going to meet a few people that you know, and find out more about them... The hotels were low cost, the dinners were low cost, yet the conversations were priceless... similar to our Fryer Tuck’s nights of the past...

7) Fear of Fisk is similar to fear of flying... the more you learn about doing it, the less fearful it is... that’s the Notam that Becca referred to reading a few times...

8) Fear of close proximity to other planes... becomes less fearful when you have training, experience, know your wingmen, and have great weather...

9) It can really help Having a copilot onboard... Caravan and Fisk are similar for this...

10) Flying at 120ias doesn’t leave much opportunity to do anything other than fly, and scan... out the window...

11) Healthy fear... can be a strong driving force for a person to work at improving their skills...

KOSH... The more I go... the more comfortable it becomes...

Best regards,

-a-

**N201MKTurbo** · August 14, 2019

I feel much more comfortable being a wingman than a lead. As a lead, you are counting on your wingman to follow you properly. As a wingman, you are always in a position to get out of the way if your lead goes crazy. Not so much as a lead and your wingman goes crazy.

Steve W · August 14, 2019

I feel much more comfortable with 1+ mile spacing between me and any other planes piloted by humans, computers, robots, or lizard people.

Amelia · August 14, 2019

I’ve done the Fisk Arrival three times. One, the first time in a new-to-me Mooney, was a hoot. There was a hold over the lake, and I entered it without drama, slowed down for the 172 ahead, All was well until a Champ shoehorned in ahead of me at maybe 65mph. Maybe WOT for him, I figured, but scary slow for me. As my stall horn began to squeak, I lowered the gear. Then 10 degrees of flaps. Slower. Faster. Slower. Champ swooped up and down, s-turns. On the arrival, finally, ATC encouraged the Champ to speed it up. Up with the gear. The rest of the arrival was untraumatic, landmarks clear, ATC professional and friendly., orange dot right under my wheels. Whew. Next time it was IFR into Fond du Lac. Time after that it was back into the circus that was Fisk, comparatively orderly, but muddy grass made the trip to N40 a little tense. So, being a total neophyte to formation flying, I was worried about joining the Caravan, a previous experience having been like being the last kid in a game of crack the whip. Boy, had they upped their game in the last decade or so. Very professional, excellent safety information, and even an experienced, and courageous military pilot to ride right-seat to keep me from screwing up. It was an excellent experience, one I highly recommend. Breakfast. Tent with chargers. Such warm, friendly fellow Mooniacs. Funny people. Parties. I hope to do it again someday...portapotties notwithstanding.

Becca · August 14, 2019

17 hours ago, kpaul said:

I honestly have no idea what you are referring to. None of the sequence you listed for the Caravan is remotely accurate. The decision to not fly in on Saturday was made at about 7am, the storms were indeed forecast at the arrival time of 1130, hence the reason the caravan delayed. The Caravan was scheduled to land right after the Cherokees. About half of that formation had their tents destroyed as they attempted to set up camp.

Yes B2OSH delayed through their first arrival window, electing to attempt an 8 PM Saturday arrival, however the airfield never re-opened for grass parking so their leadership decided to cancel their mass arrival. The Caravan did not use the B2OSH landing window on Saturday.

On Sunday, the Caravan was given a 9am land time by OSH ATC. The Caravan was then slightly delayed by EAA because they were unsure where to park 62 ACFT. Initially, the plan was to park the aircraft on a taxiway until a dry enough spot was located. it was not until after the Caravan landed that EAA informed the lead aircraft that they had a parking location available.

There was continuous coordination between the Caravan Lead pilot and OSH ATC and EAA, luck had nothing to do with it.

Sorry I went back and looked at my message history with friends and got the Mooney arrival time wrong, it was originally 1130.

i stand by the rest of my recollection - eg that Bos canceled their 130 pm arrival on Friday night, first to reschedule to later Saturday evening and then they canceled it all together first thing Saturday morning. (you can confirm that on BT, those times are all over their web site) making it available for the Mooney’s, that there was one high and dry spot after the late morning storms that EAA gave you instead of regular Fisk arrivals or Cessnas or whatnot - heck if the Bos hasn’t rescheduled they may have gotten that spot instead of the Mooney’s - and yes the storms weren’t forecast until 130 pm, which is probably what drove the Bo reschedule, and then that Saturday morning they set up sooner than forecast (Byron was actually texting some caravan people at 10 am telling them that by delaying they were missing their weather window ... in retrospect an incorrect forecast given my photo of the storm reaching the field at exactly 1130.). I consider all those a fortuitous set of circumstance that allowed the Mooney’s to get in on a Saturday when no one else got in after the 1130 am storm (cheers to Seth, who arrived in his Mooney at precisely 1126 and was like the 3rd to last plane parked in GAC). Could it have been more fortuitous? Sure, you could have had the Cherokee’s 10 am slot :). I am surprised actually that no one broke ranks with the caravan and just left early to ensure they would get in on Saturday morning before the field closed - I would have been tempted. We also got in on Saturday in a fortuitous set of circumstances ourselves (eg the opportunity for me to get off work earlier than planned on Friday so we could stage an hour away from Osh and then fly the rest of the way first thing Saturday morning before the weather came in, if that hadn’t happened we would have been waiting for the field to reopen for camping sunday or Monday too). What’s wrong with crediting a little bit of luck in all the timing? All things considered it worked out pretty well for the Mooney’s. You can’t negotiate with the weather, you can only negotiate around the weather..

Edited August 14, 2019 by Becca

steingar · August 14, 2019

Actually, I don't think I told last year's story here. It was quite something. I had come up Sunday, had to thread between storms in Indiana, popped out through a frontal boundary around Chicago. Tried to get in Sunday afternoon, no joy. Landed out, first airport to the West. Spent the night there.

Tried again next morning. Circled the #%#^$&$#&%!!! lake a bunch, finally got the go ahead for runway 27 from FISKE. I'm on downwind headed for a line of Howards. Really pretty airplanes, unless you're headed into them. I hear nothing from tower, and I'm not supposed to call (tower is talking to the Howards). Fine, I slot behind the Howards, I've got gear and flaps down, I can dance this dance. As the last Howard turns final I get ready to do so, there's still plenty of room. That is, until the guy behind me becomes the guy in front of me. Still OK, I slow just a bit and make some room, he gets smart and lands right, I land left with still plenty of room.

Tower says nothing during this whole event. Not...one...thing. I sure as hell wasn't going around in that pandemonium.

Had that been my first Oshkosh it'd been my last. Even this year was tame in comparison. Was fun though.

kpaul · August 14, 2019

4 hours ago, Becca said:

making it available for the Mooney’s,

NO! the Mooney Caravan DID NOT use the B2OSH time slot.

4 hours ago, Becca said:

I consider all those a fortuitous set of circumstance that allowed the Mooney’s to get in on a Saturday when no one else got in after the 1130 am storm

NO! the Caravan did not arrive until SUNDAY.

What part of all of this are you missing?

Becca · August 15, 2019

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

NO! the Mooney Caravan DID NOT use the B2OSH time slot.

NO! the Caravan did not arrive until SUNDAY.

What part of all of this are you missing?

sorry you’re right I’m an idiot about the timing and not ashamed to admit it. I was trying to refresh my memory of when the weather windows were via my text message history from my iPhone which is clearly as flawed as my memory. You were originally scheduled to arrive Saturday but didn’t make it until Sunday right? It was Saturday morning (when we arrived) that we thought the weather would hold out until closer to 1 but it came rolling it at 1130 so you put off to the next day, I’m not sure why I had it my head that you had been able to come that afternoon....

What I very much recall was that the caravan for very lucky getting the only dry arrival slot, when all the other caravans couldn’t/didn’t/canceled and the field was not open to Fisk arrivals for GAC. That’s not advance planning or some superior technical skills of the Mooney caravan over all the other caravans (besides the Cherokees who came earlier) or the Fisk arrivals. It’s a lucky combination of timing and accomodation in the one dry spot on N40. My memory on timing is very clearly off but my opinion that it was fortuitous still stands. For instance, what if the Bos hasn’t ultimately canceled - are sure you sure the EAA would have selected the Mooney’s over the Bos for that one dry spot? (It seems to me the Bos tent is always just a little more favorably positioned in the N40 than the Mooney’s, I think they do have some - unfair - clout in that regard). I mean I think it’s lucky that the EAA accommodated the Mooney’s over General Fisk arrivals for that spot y’all ended up parked in. It was a good year to be in the caravan because it all worked out to get you in when lots of others couldn’t, I am not sure why it upsets you so that I think that’s luck or fortuitous? It worked out, yay caravan...!

Edited August 15, 2019 by Becca

gsxrpilot · August 15, 2019

2 minutes ago, Becca said:

I am not sure why it upsets you so that I think that’s luck or fortuitous? It worked out, yay caravan.

Maybe because those of us involved realize the amount of work, phone calls, people driving to Oshkosh to meet with EAA, conference calls with MSN Tower, OSH Tower, FAA, and EAA ground, etc. etc. starting on Wednesday prior. Weather happens, but it's the work, planning, and contingencies that make the difference. Who was it that said, "the harder you work the luckier you get."

The high spot in the N40 was ours because we had people on the ground working with EAA in advance of the storms on Saturday to lay claim to it in anticipation of wet conditions. We got in Sunday morning in spite of the entire N40 being closed to parking because of the successful negotiations and communication between the Caravan leadership and all the other parties including OSH Tower and EAA Ground.

This is the second year in a row that the Mooney Caravan has arrived to Oshkosh and the B2OSH group hasn't. There's no competition here and the B2OSH leadership had a meeting with the Caravan leadership last year and again this year to compare notes and hopefully learn from each other. Obviously B2OSH is more than twice the number of aircraft and that adds additional complexity to the operation.

Those of us who were there and involved, want to see credit go to the team that worked so hard to make it happen, and not just to Lady Luck and the Weather Gods.

Becca · August 15, 2019

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Maybe because those of us involved realize the amount of work, phone calls, people driving to Oshkosh to meet with EAA, conference calls with MSN Tower, OSH Tower, FAA, and EAA ground, etc. etc. starting on Wednesday prior. Weather happens, but it's the work, planning, and contingencies that make the difference. Who was it that said, "the harder you work the luckier you get."

The high spot in the N40 was ours because we had people on the ground working with EAA in advance of the storms on Saturday to lay claim to it in anticipation of wet conditions. We got in Sunday morning in spite of the entire N40 being closed to parking because of the successful negotiations and communication between the Caravan leadership and all the other parties including OSH Tower and EAA Ground.

This is the second year in a row that the Mooney Caravan has arrived to Oshkosh and the B2OSH group hasn't. There's no competition here and the B2OSH leadership had a meeting with the Caravan leadership last year and again this year to compare notes and hopefully learn from each other. Obviously B2OSH is more than twice the number of aircraft and that adds additional complexity to the operation.

Those of us who were there and involved, want to see credit go to the team that worked so hard to make it happen, and not just to Lady Luck and the Weather Gods.

All I hear from this story is to give the EAA an earful about what I think about them allowing a caravan to spend days lobbying for a preferred camp site while they were actually turning other airplanes away. It’s one thing to make space among a field of other GA arrivals but here, the way you describe it, the EAA selected one GA arrival over the other and I am not sure I’m ok with that. The EAA published GA arrival policy is first come first serve and park with the people you arrive with. I think you are lucky the spot was dry on Sunday at all and that you had no competition lobbying for it. Sounds like we Fisk arrivals need our own advocate on the ground.

I understand planning the caravan is a lot of work. Good on you. Not trying to disparage it. But Apparently any time a non-caravaner says something about the caravan like “you guys had fortuitous arrival timing this year” and “because of that timing the caravan was a great way to arrive at Oshkosh this year because they got in when others didn’t”... honestly I expected “aww shucks yes the caravan is awesome.” But apparently even that only permits a response of circling the wagons and defend the perfection of the caravan so I suppose I should just give up discussing. I mean seriously you had a freakin midair this year and I’m on these forums saying “I still think doing the caravan seems fun if I had the time, I dont think it’s inherently unsafe.” Out of respect for caravan leadership eventually being fully transparent once the process plays out, I am not posting the rumors I’ve heard about what caused the midair but let’s say it doesn’t paint a flattering picture, but I’m leaving it be because I think it’s a good event that we should encourage as Mooney owners. Yet all I get is drama every time I make a comment about the caravan - even something I intended to be positive like that it seemed like the caravan was particularly well timed this year and offered an advantage over Fisk only resulted in criticism.

In the end, this whole post really turns me off the caravan as a way to arrive. I got up, preflighted my plane, topped off the fuel, looked at the weather, reviewed the NOTAM, selected a weather window, followed a published notam spaced about a mile from 2 other airplanes, landed, set up my tent, met my airplane neighbors, went and got beer and pizza... and meanwhile the caravan spent the next 36 hrs in Madison lobbying for parking, coordinating, phoning, weather checking, arranging an extra night in a motel, multiple pre briefs, having people on the ground moving the big tent, before finally managing to arrive mostly but not completely safely ... your description makes it sound like even more of an ordeal than I had previously envisioned. And really the way you describe it makes the caravans timing sound horribly unlucky but only just barely rescued by lots of work. I’m not sure I’m patient enough for all of that when I could control my own arrival time.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Becca

Yetti · August 15, 2019

“A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week” — George Patton

Steve W · August 15, 2019

Any time you have to coordinate with more than 0 other people it's going to be problematic. Some prefer the Caravan way with the inherent possible complications from the huge number of planes and people. Some prefer finding their way on their own and being able to not have to worry about anyones schedule or plans but their own. Some people look at the chart and wonder if they can find an airport to camp at with no other people around.

**carusoam** · August 15, 2019

Apparently the B20SH guys had their space picked out in advance as well...

Their big tent was nicely set-up and waiting... for the party that was much smaller than expected... the spaces filled up randomly with a Mooney right up front...

Breaking ranks, and coming as individuals doesn’t really work out very well... perfectly acceptable, just not preferred...

The B2OSH guys essentially did that... but, the spaces aren’t really reserved... Lobby all you want, EAA has their first come, first served rule... the Bos got spread all over the place as they arrived...

Some preference went to light planes with big tires...

It would be nice to have reserved spaces for the Mooneys that had to come later, but that requires the luck of the empty spaces... and knowing that they are there...

Ground control ops with volunteer EAA people is good for orderly flow. But, anything out of the norm, and things get a bit messy... no way to even discuss a request without yelling out a window... with somebody near your spinning prop... with little power to make a decision...

Next year we’ll need new signs... GAC-MC and GAC-B2OSH...

Leave nothing to luck... minimize chance as much as practical...

The more the Caravan prepared, the luckier they got...

Some things really appear strange... lots of people working in an organized disorderly(?) fashion... as if this is what they do for a living...

in GA, the PIC is in complete command of his ship... come and go as you please...
In instrument flight, we start to see some limitations.... like clearance Windows.... be off the ground by X o’clock... and hold for the next opportunity to use an IAP...
In formation with 61 other PICs, the PIC is occupying a set place, and functions as part of a team... and is pretty happy doing that.
there are many levels of leaders... from leading the Caravan, to leading one of the alphabetized wings, to flying the tail...
Each of these leadership rolls is earned over time with added experience...
The wing man is still PIC of his ship. If he has to leave his position, there is a procedure for that too...
There are so many supporting rolls too... organizing and executing, hotel rooms and conference space, food and beverages, meeting times and locations, fuel availability and discounts, the awesome orange shirts, name tags, food, tent and tables, getting financial support from our favorite Mooney vendors, electrical equipment so everyone can be fully charged all the time, MS Pizza night... i’m Sure there were more.... everybody had a job to do...if they wanted one...
There is a Plan B for everything... Plan A still takes a high priority...
There will always be Mistakes and challenges that are going to arise... it’s how we recover from them that is important...

There is a reward for all that preparation and planning... About 120 Mooney pilots and SICs lived in tight quarters, enjoyed some serious Camaraderie, and got to meet people that they have known for a decade...

We ate breakfast together, shared some pizza together, discussed things we saw at the show... had a few beers together, and some traditional single Malts...

One thing that was extra nice... our spot was comfortably close to the Hilton... and not too far from the Hardy’s... and the Target has a nice bathroom as well... just an example of planning at the individual level...

PP thoughts only, not a formation pilot yet...

Best regards,

-a-

kpaul · August 15, 2019

17 hours ago, Becca said:

I consider all those a fortuitous set of circumstance that allowed the Mooney’s to get in on a Saturday when no one else got in after the 1130 am storm (cheers to Seth, who arrived in his Mooney at precisely 1126 and was like the 3rd to last plane parked in GAC).

Yes, Seth was very "fortuitous" with his arrival...oh wait, didn't he have a prop strike taxiing to his parking spot.

Bob_Belville · August 15, 2019

@Becca, your priority seems to have been on getting in and parked in GAC asap and you wonder why all the Caravan chose to hang with the group and none chose go ahead and get in via Fisk on Saturday. ISTM it is a matter of priorities on why we go to KOSH. Folks who at minimum invested in a weekend clinic and had already planned to spend 2 nights at KMSN - to say nothing of their years of Caravan including seeing Mooney friends once a year - were more interested in the formation experience and parking with the community. The show doesn't really fully open until Monday. The journey is a big part of the whole experience. (Some of us had to relocate to a real armpit of a hotel for Saturday night in Madison but we enjoyed a nice dinner at a Japanese Steak House with 4 PICs and our families.)

Becca · August 15, 2019

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

@Becca, your priority seems to have been on getting in and parked in GAC asap and you wonder why all the Caravan chose to hang with the group and none chose go ahead and get in via Fisk on Saturday. ISTM it is a matter of priorities on why we go to KOSH. Folks who at minimum invested in a weekend clinic and had already planned to spend 2 nights at KMSN - to say nothing of their years of Caravan including seeing Mooney friends once a year - were more interested in the formation experience and parking with the community. The show doesn't really fully open until Monday. The journey is a big part of the whole experience. (Some of us had to relocate to a real armpit of a hotel for Saturday night in Madison but we enjoyed a nice dinner at a Japanese Steak House with 4 PICs and our families.)

Yeah I suppose you’re right. In the perfect world you can do both, which is the appeal of the caravan. But when things get complicated, in those circumstances some people are going to the Caravan, some people are going to Oshkosh. Me, I’m choosing Oshkosh. I like hanging with Mooney people, but I like hanging with pilots in general too and had a great time at my N40 campsite with other pilots, pilot friends in all aircraft types from a Houston and Dc, so I don’t think I missed an opportunity to meet and hang out with other airplane people on Saturday and Sunday by being at Oshkosh rather than Madison - after all I was at a campsite surrounded by hundreds of other planes and airplane people, drinking beer, drinking coffee, rating landings, and hangar flying. Then we got to come hang with our Mooney friends for the pizza social, so the best of all worlds. I’m sure the Japanese steakhouse was indeed fun ... but I can do that with friends in DC. I can only do Oshkosh at Oshkosh. But I think some people would do the caravan even if there was no Oshkosh (every year we always see a handful of various mass arrivals people leave on Monday morning before the show even starts... so to each their own). And I’m sure that’s fun too. But that’s not why I’m flying across the country to the middle of nowhere in Wisconsin, but for some people the Caravan is the reason, and the show is just the icing on top. As I’ve said repeatedly, it seems like a fun way to arrive and a fun thing to do if you have the time and inclination for it.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Becca

**jetdriven** · August 15, 2019

9 hours ago, kpaul said:

Yes, Seth was very "fortuitous" with his arrival...oh wait, didn't he have a prop strike taxiing to his parking spot.

Quite a bit less dangerous than a midair collision, what do you think?

For the record he refused, and they ordered him to taxi forward. I’ve learned from this a couple things. When ordered to taxi through something i‘m uncomfortable with, I’m pulling the mixture.
second, the EAA has insurance for this. When they Marshall you they are assuming some responsibility.
carry on.

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