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Fear of Fisk!


Becca

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We considered the caravan, but honestly Fisk is so much fun. The wife thought it was the best thing ever last year. Idiots in airplanes as far as the eye can see. All converging on one place. Who will it be that gets to rock their wings and who will be sent back to try again?

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3 hours ago, Becca said:

 I guess I’m of the opinion there’s advantages and disadvantages to each - the commraderie and formation training to the caravan vs the flexibility for tight schedules of a lone arrival.   But I wouldn’t do the caravan just because of fear of Fisk, I think that’s my message really :) which is especially important because people shouldn’t be deterred from coming to Osh (which is amazing!) because they can’t make the caravan for timing or other reasons.  

I feel the same way. 

Monday was the 17th time I have flown into Airventure, 14th time via Fisk.  I flew the caravan once (last year), Warbird once, and an Ercoupe mass arrival once.  The Ercoupe arrival was the worst one, no training required and we had nearly 40 aircraft in trail.  That doesn't work.  

I enjoyed the Caravan last year and felt it was a safe way to get into OSH.  But it wasn't without a hitch.  Halfway to OSH a Bonanza passing by formed up with my element for several minutes, first on #3's wing, then after a while crossed under and flew my (#2) wing. There were also several airplanes that crossed though the caravan at our altitude.  So even the Caravan isn't immune to other pilot's hi-jinks.  

I have had a few hairy experiences with Fisk but I have learned that it's all in the timing, as Becca said.  Plan on avoiding times of high volume.  Later in the week is usually much slower.  As is 7:00-7:30am at the beginning of the week.  If the airport is closed for a few hours in the morning for an accident or weather, just call it a day.  Don't try to get in before the airshow in a 1-2hr window as it will be crazy.  My worst experience was with that scenario.  For me Fisk is great because I live so close.  If my airplane is ready I can get up from my living room couch and be over Ripon in one hour.  I can't think of a better place to wait out delays than at home on my couch.:)

I will continue to fly Fisk and the Caravan in the future.  Just depends on my schedule.

There was a midair on the Fisk arrival 5 or so years ago.  It was a cub and an Archer, they both landed safely at OSH.  As I understood it the archer was over the cub, they came together and hit props.  The cub's wood prop took the brunt of it.  I remember seeing it parked in the vintage maintenance area.

Cheers,

Dan

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5 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

I enjoyed the Caravan last year and felt it was a safe way to get into OSH.  But it wasn't without a hitch.  Halfway to OSH a Bonanza passing by formed up with my element for several minutes, first on #3's wing, then after a while crossed under and flew my (#2) wing. There were also several airplanes that crossed though the caravan at our altitude.  So even the Caravan isn't immune to other pilots hi-jinks.  

Yikes,  I hope you reported that guy?  Isn't formation flying without preplanning illegal by regulation?

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2 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I believe our total time on the runway at OSH was 11 minutes.  62 aircraft in 11 minutes.  There's not a chance in hell that closed Fisk for an hour and a half.  Not to mention, there's a whole other runway for people to use

During mass arrivals they close the whole field to incoming traffic.  Which I think is the right thing to do.  I think it usually is a 30 min closure per arrival (accounts for the arrival time not just runway time).  This year the Mooney Caravan had pretty optimal timing (in a lot of ways) - they arrived when field was actually closed to any grass parking except for the exact area where they put the Mooney’s, so they weren’t really interfering with anyone.  

(Also 62 planes in 11 minutes on one runway is a WAY crazier arrival than any I’ve seen coming through Fisk!  Wow!)

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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Yikes,  I hope you reported that guy?  Isn't formation flying without preplanning illegal by regulation?

I wanted to but no one got his N-number.  Being I was flying wing and solo there was no way to copy down the n-number.  After he crossed under I thought he was gone.  I didn't even know he flew on my wing until after we landed. 

Cheers,

Dan

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1 minute ago, DanM20C said:

I wanted to but no one got his N-number.  Being I was flying wing and solo there was no way to copy down the n-number.  After he crossed under I thought he was gone.  I didn't even know he flew on my wing until after we landed. 

Cheers,

Dan

Not to be rules police, but I wonder if they caught his N number on ADS-B?  Someone might be able to do some Google-fu and find it on FlightAware or such...

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6 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Not to be rules police, but I wonder if they caught his N number on ADS-B?  Someone might be able to do some Google-fu and find it on FlightAware or such...

I don't know why I didn't think about that at the time.  Once we landed and cracked a beer I think we all forgot about it.

Flying Fisk on Monday I wondered about the ADS-b thing.  I noticed several airplanes that were not flying the arrival correctly and were broadcasting tis-b.  Two airplanes came from the west and cut ahead of me just before Fisk.  They were not instructed to leave a hold over Rush, so they clearly were not flying the procedure.  

Cheers,

Dan

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7 hours ago, Becca said:

Seriously!  One thing we were talking about is how encouraging they are even for total F-ups (on sunday we watched people actually approach wrong end of the runway!).  Apparently it’s a human factors thing if you start getting grumpy or angry with pilots it increases cockpit stress levels and the mistakes pile on.  A few “good jobs” and “great wing rocks” builds confidence to keep it coming.  And it can’t be easy for the controllers and they seem to manage to squeeze in “welcome to Oshkosh, enjoy the show!” on many Fisk crossings and landings!  Really a pleasure to listen to.

Yip, I'm really impressed by this specific aspect of the ATCs.  And by contrast, I was overhead JFK on Saturday where the controllers laid it into an Execujet flight who just couldn't get anything right. And the more they laid it in, the more he screwed up (opposite headings, wrong altitude - unbelievable - like a student pilot in a 152).

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How about people who have flow Fisk, comment on the Fisk and people who have flown with the Caravan can comment on that. Some of you have flown both and have actual insight here.

I've never flown the Fisk, so I won't comment on it. I will say that most of the comments about the Caravan by people who have never flown with the Caravan are factually inaccurate.

We also don't charge anything to show up at our tent and have a beer. The BBQ on the other hand, is only for those who have bought a ticket and that includes all Caravan members as well.

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Fear of Ripon not Fisk! Lol.

Flew it today no real issues. They were lined up past ripon before I was on target. I gracefully joined between several bonanzas. A lonely Cherokee was orbiting 1mi south of ripon that I flew by. I think in the future they will need a 3rd arrival waypoint. During peak times use the 3rd waypoint. Or have a procedure for joining at ripon. 

Follow SOP and It works. Maybe join the caravan next year...

-Matt

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I do agree with @Becca that no one should be afraid of the Fisk arrival. Like I said, I've not flown it so can't comment. But if the Caravan wasn't an option for me, I'd be flying the Fisk. Oshkosh is too good to miss.

The main reason I like flying with the Caravan is camping with the Caravan. The tent, generators, meals, and the friends, are the reasons I keep coming back.

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I agree with Paul 100% about the reasons to join the Caravan. It makes OSH 100% more fun IMO. I'm stingy with my vacation days since I don't have many (had none for years, at least paid time off anyway) and I was grumpy about them moving the arrival up to Saturday as that meant I now need to take a Friday off plus show days. It is absolutely worth it!

 

I've flown Fisk quite a few times and the Caravan experience (just in terms of only getting there, not the social stuff) is superior IMO since you know folks with you are trained and briefed, and the chances of interlopers should be reduced since it is easier to spot 3-ship elements and especially a line of them.

 

I've had a jackass cut in front of me on the Fisk arrival, and then *I* got called out for following too closely and had to go back and start again. I've had to hold over the lake with folks of questionable ability. I've felt rushed on the landing and turned off into the grass too quickly/aggressively for my taste, but that's on me. I'll choose the Caravan arrival every time if I can!

 

Also like Paul, I'd fly the Fisk just to get there. I'd strategize to time for minimum traffic if at all possible, like Becca and Byron did this year by overnighting close and getting an early start. ADS-B traffic certainly helps, and especially next year after all should be equipped. Having a second pilot to look for traffic and listen on the radio is valuable.

 

Most of all, get there and enjoy it! (The Caravan is the most fun though!)

 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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“The main reason I like flying with the Caravan is camping with the Caravan. The tent, generators, meals, and the friendsare the reasons I keep coming back.“

It IS the people that make AirVenture so special!   

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Get there any way you can...

I have three fisks, one caravan, and a couple of SnFs... inconveniently rejected on two of those... Winterhaven and Appleton make nice stop-overs... when too late to arrive.

To improve one’s comfort level...

1) Bring a set of trained eyes to help look for other planes...

2) Bring your memory, full of way points, that are clearly depicted in the procedures...

3) Select the best times for a lower level of traffic...

4) Doing this solo, on your first time, would be a real challenge...

5) Is that the upside down wedding cake... where is the blue roof... (fuzzy memories of the other fly-in)

6) Caravan is a blast!

7) Formation flying... up close, appears to look similar to cars moving down the highway, intentionally staying in lanes, and maintaining spacing... only there are no lanes... and the speed is about 3X highway speeds... :)

8) Planning in advance is a huge detail... being familiar with KOSH procedure is one important part... the Caravan has a collection of additional pages to be familiar with... i tried to compare using electronic versions and paper versions... electronic requires strong memory to find the pages you are looking for... paper is easier to flip through when memory is at a premium...

9) Management... If you are familiar with project management (PM) you can have a great appreciation for all the work that goes into arranging a perfect flight of 62 planes... every detail is covered, with a plan B for every step of the project... a list of who is in charge of which activity or area... is as expected...

Communication is everything at every level... be at each meeting... both large and small... when the caravan is aloft... the radios are very quiet while things are going well... a few hand signs, a couple of tail waggles... not much more...

10) Sh*t happened... the weather didn’t agree with our plans...Thunder storms arrived in time for our Caravan experience... Our day at the hotel turned into a second day... we departed for KOSH a day later than expected...

11) Behind the scenes... magic was really happening... one Caravan guy was on the phone between two Traffic control towers negotiating the departure and arrival of 62 Mooneys... then on the ground was another wow! moment...ATC sent a few Mooneys ahead to test the taxi capability of Mooneys on the softened surface... then the rest followed the uphill taxi-way to the highest ground in the N40... plan B was park on a paved surface...

12) Camp was set up, and the communing followed...

13) The Best night was a super cooperative event... The Caravan tent was the place, MS’s Yves’ organized the Pizza delivery, DMax/Jimmy, and Clarence are/were great supporters... hope somebody got good pics of their giant ad signs... (thank you!)

14) At the end of the first day, our 62 Mooneys were tightly nestled in place... the good times were rolling...

15) knowing a couple of the B2Osh guys, I stopped by over there... their management took some scheduled risks, the weather really set them back... their version of the Caravan was cancelled... Many of their members attempted to come as individuals... but were unable to park anywhere near each other... they had all the fixings for a big party, but not enough people arrived to use it all... And a Mooney was prominently parked in the first space next to their tent...

16) It was great having a period of excess... food, beverage, camaraderie, Mooneys, supporters, pilots, mechanics, family, and friends...

17) Caravaners, MSers, and ATC all working together...

18) Screen names, call signs, and real names mixing in the memory... now multiply that by about two... to get spouses, friends, and kids names sorted...

19) there is plenty of work to do to get closer to perfection... time will help sort through those things out...

20) where else can you meet people you have known for a decade...?

21) Overall, I reviewed how well things went and compared them to my expectations... then shared that with my co-pilot... I started a paragraph with...

“This week was well beyond expectations...”

Get to a Mooney Fly-in!

Even If it takes driving the Chevy...  :)

Best regards,

-a-

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There is a post on the mapalist regarding a Caravan incident.  

True?  False?  

Is this how rumors get started?

Regardless, I really hope there were no issues and this is false information.

Whoops...... I see it now under the Caravan heading :mellow:

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(Also 62 planes in 11 minutes on one runway is a WAY crazier arrival than any I’ve seen coming through Fisk!  Wow!)


Two runways, 36R (two aircraft) and 36L (one aircraft).

Each is aiming for (and landing past) the same spot on the runway and taxiing at high speed towards the exit. No worries that the guy in front of you lands short or decelerates, forcing you to go around (if you’re still airborne) or max brake (if you’re already touching down).

Try both and decide which fits you best.

I rented a house one year below the arrival, and sauntered into the pool with a cool one to watch airplanes with a nearby radio tuned to the controller freq.

I left twenty minutes later shaken at the near-misses I saw and how many pilots appeared oblivious to the controllers and other aircraft. Not for me...but to each one’s own.
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The first time I went to Oshkosh was in 2016; I flew the Fisk on Sunday.  Weather was optimal, I left my in-laws south of Chicago, decided the weather wasn’t good enough in the morning and tried again in the afternoon.  I had to break out twice after the aircraft I was following couldn’t maintain 90kts.  Made it in on the third try...exhilarating experience (rock your wings, land on the dot!)

Came in with the caravan the last two years.  Also marginal conditions, but the decision making is with the leadership; I only have one thing to worry about with flying wing.  The camaraderie and training was really worth the extra effort.  I don’t necessarily want to take the extra time to arrive on Saturday.  My thinking in the future will be if I want to get in for the beginning of the show, I’ll fly the caravan (and have a great time); but if I want to arrive later, I won’t have an issue with Fisk.  Has anyone listened to the Fisk controllers when you leave on Wednesday or Thursday?  They sound bored to me!  

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On 7/25/2019 at 11:09 AM, jetdriven said:

Let’s look at this objectively. How many Midair collisions have occurred on the Fisk arrival.  Mike found one in 1990. Perhaps half a million arrivals over Fisk since then. 
I will add this though. I have flown  Fisk arrival five or six times now and only one time was it required to hold and that was because of the three or four mass arivals scheduled all at the same time. I believe the Cherokees were a little late and the Mooney’s were early that year and they shut down Fisk for an hour and a half and then we were holding. But it seems remarkable that people on the mass arrivals are saying that Fisk  is more dangerous because of saturation and holding that is, in fact, caused by mass arrivals..  self eating watermelon.  

Clearly the Cherokees were late and the Mooneys were early because Cherokees are quite slow and Mooneys are quite fast.  

Firsthand experience- former Cherokee and current Mooney owner. 

 

Also something to ponder is whether or not the mass arrivals help or hurt the Fisk landing process at OSH. On one hand, you’re definitely landing more aircraft at a time with the mass arrivals- 60+ in 9 minutes is impressive and was just plain cool to watch. The question is whether or not the buffer time before and after these mass arrivals which closes the mass arrivals runway negates this benefit.  Does anybody know what the controllers typically do here?  Are all runways closed to the Fisk during mass arrivals?  What’s the before/after buffer times?  

 

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20 minutes ago, 81X said:

Clearly the Cherokees were late and the Mooneys were early because Cherokees are quite slow and Mooneys are quite fast.  

Firsthand experience- former Cherokee and current Mooney owner. 

 

Also something to ponder is whether or not the mass arrivals help or hurt the Fisk landing process at OSH. On one hand, you’re definitely landing more aircraft at a time with the mass arrivals- 60+ in 9 minutes is impressive and was just plain cool to watch. The question is whether or not the buffer time before and after these mass arrivals which closes the mass arrivals runway negates this benefit.  Does anybody know what the controllers typically do here?  Are all runways closed to the Fisk during mass arrivals?  What’s the before/after buffer times?  

 

You also have to include in your calculations the fact that the 500 or so mass arrival aircraft, if not on a mass arrival, would be part of the the fisk arrival.  How long does it take fisk to land 500 planes vs how long do the mass arrivals combined cause fisk to hold?

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17 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

You also have to include in your calculations the fact that the 500 or so mass arrival aircraft, if not on a mass arrival, would be part of the the fisk arrival.  How long does it take fisk to land 500 planes vs how long do the mass arrivals combined cause fisk to hold?

Absolutely.  It’s all in the rate of landing aircraft per minute/whatever time unit. Is that rate larger during normal Fisk ops or larger than the moment ATC changes that to the time they stop the change...

 

As for the non-quantifiable items-  while I didn’t get to fly it this year, the Caravan seems infinitely more fun than the Fisk, which is why many of us fly!  

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The Tower does NOT close the field to have a buffer before and after the mass arrivals. 9/27 is open and landing aircraft the entire time the mass arrival is using 36 L/R. In addition, airplanes were landing on 36 as the Mooney Caravan rolled out on Final. And if you look at the video from last year you'll see the B-29 landing on 36L while Mooney tail was still rolling out on the same runway. 

There is no question at all, and verified with Oshkosh Tower, that the mass arrivals reduce the wait time for those on the Fisk.

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15 hours ago, N9201A said:

 


Two runways, 36R (two aircraft) and 36L (one aircraft).

Each is aiming for (and landing past) the same spot on the runway and taxiing at high speed towards the exit. No worries that the guy in front of you lands short or decelerates, forcing you to go around (if you’re still airborne) or max brake (if you’re already touching down).

Try both and decide which fits you best.

I rented a house one year below the arrival, and sauntered into the pool with a cool one to watch airplanes with a nearby radio tuned to the controller freq.

I left twenty minutes later shaken at the near-misses I saw and how many pilots appeared oblivious to the controllers and other aircraft. Not for me...but to each one’s own.

 

Why is the landing with mass arrival any less likely to have someone land short or taxi long forcing you to go around vs a normal arrival (when sometimes you even have whole runway to yourself, we did this year).  In 62 airplanes, it’s certainly possible 1 or 2 will miss their mark.  We didn’t actually see Mooney arrival but we watched two go arounds for Cherokee arrival this year, and a go around last year during Bo arrival.  I don’t think mass arrivals avoid that outcome.  Do y’all debrief with other mass arrivals and share lessons learned, near misses, or procedure updates to make yourself collectively safer? 

i don’t want to knock mass arrivals here I am worried I am coming off too negative.  I think they seem really fun and a really good group of people and an interesting way to arrive at Oshkosh, I’d certainly like the opportunity to hone my formation skills.  I am just rejecting the notion that there is something inherently riskier or less safe on a regular arrival vs mass arrival.  Especially to the extent that making the regular arrival sound dangerous might deter people who can’t make the caravan from coming to Oshkosh all-together..

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Why is the landing with mass arrival any less likely to have someone land short or taxi long forcing you to go around vs a normal arrival (when sometimes you even have whole runway to yourself, we did this year).  



In 62 airplanes, it’s certainly possible 1 or 2 will miss their mark.  


We didn’t actually see Mooney arrival but we watched two go arounds for Cherokee arrival this year, and a go around last year during Bo arrival.  I don’t think mass arrivals avoid that outcome.  


Do y’all debrief with other mass arrivals and share lessons learned, near misses, or procedure updates to make yourself collectively safer? 


i don’t want to knock mass arrivals here I am worried I am coming off too negative.  

I think they seem really fun and a really good group of people and an interesting way to arrive at Oshkosh, I’d certainly like the opportunity to hone my formation skills.  


I am just rejecting the notion that there is something inherently riskier or less safe on a regular arrival vs mass arrival.
.





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The Tower does NOT close the field to have a buffer before and after the mass arrivals. 9/27 is open and landing aircraft the entire time the mass arrival is using 36 L/R. In addition, airplanes were landing on 36 as the Mooney Caravan rolled out on Final. And if you look at the video from last year you'll see the B-29 landing on 36L while Mooney tail was still rolling out on the same runway. 
There is no question at all, and verified with Oshkosh Tower, that the mass arrivals reduce the wait time for those on the Fisk.


Control towers maximize safe runway use. The OSH Tower is not the busiest in the world during AirVenture because they hold three runways idle or create some “buffer period.”

Mass arrivals are negotiated months in advance with letters of agreement with the FAA. Each arrival Lead is in contact with Tower personnel during the days before and is assigned a specific slot time that must be hit precisely.

The controller issues one landing clearance for the whole flight. The controller knows each pilot will do exactly what’s briefed and agreed.

Aircraft arriving on Fisk just show up, and the tower may have a slow period or may be jammed. It may have other conflicting traffic or other issues limiting its ability to maximize runway utilization.

Fisk arrivals may or may not follow the NOTAM. Each must be specifically controlled (so 60 arriving Fiskers = 60 separate clearances and interactions).

I suggest anyone interested speak to a tower controller at OSH and get their perspective.

The FAA isn’t working with mass arrivals because it is less efficient — if they didn’t support it, it wouldn’t happen. And they support it for the reasons stated.

Look, formation flying isn’t for everyone. Plenty of people opt out of a mass arrival for good reasons. But some imagined inefficiency or negative impact on OSH Tower ain’t close to being among those reasons!!
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