Mooney M20J Crash NJ

[Tommy]

13 hours ago, PTK said:

It sure does. We’re viewed with skepticism, much like gun owners, thanks to the actions of a few individuals. The best thing here is that this dumbass was alone and didn't also kill an innocent and trusting pax. Otherwise I view this as Darwin at work. Much like gang violence and shootings. 

Ah, so quick to make a defense on gun rights every time someone did something stupid with something.  So a guy's reckless joyride (again, exact cause is still unknown)  -  with no intetion to kill anyone - in a sophicated machine that takes years to master which ended in one casualty is somehow morally and legally equivalent to a disgruntled employee - with full intention to kill - using a weapon that he bought at Walmart for $500 to gun down 12 people in Virginia? 

People know the difference, Peter. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Tommy

[Tony Starke]

18 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Ah, so quick to make a defense on gun rights every time someone did something stupid with something.  So a guy's reckless joyride -  with no intetion to kill anyone - in a sophicated machine that takes years to master which ended in one casualty is somehow morally and legally equivalent to a disgruntled employee - with full intention to kill - using a weapon that he bought at Walmart for $500 to gun down 12 people in Virginia? 

People know the difference, Peter. 

This makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

[Yetti]

On 5/30/2019 at 2:59 PM, jaylw314 said:

That's what we were debating--if it was a GPS altitude, it would be a true altitude, but if it was a Mode C altitude, it would require correction

Edit:  Now that you mention that, though, I have to admit I am unsure if ADS-B Out transmits the GPS altitude or not.  Anybody know?

This freaked me out a little because the Trig shows altitude in the display.  It is pressure altitude in transmitted in ADSB and shown on the Trig display.  The Controllers system corrects this for the controller to see the indicated altitude.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, PTK said:

It sure does. We’re viewed with skepticism, much like gun owners, thanks to the actions of a few individuals. The best thing here is that this dumbass was alone and didn't also kill an innocent and trusting pax. Otherwise I view this as Darwin at work. Much like gang violence and shootings. 

While I agree that this pilots end was indeed Darwin at work, I don’t see how a mass shooting is.

Clarence

[Tommy]

55 minutes ago, Tony Starke said:

This makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

In Peter's view, criticisms / skepticisms of private pilots following stunts like this are no different from the equally negative sentiment against gun owners post mass shootings in that both are nothing but hot air hysteria. I am merely pointing out that these two vastly different categories of "incidents" share nothing in common therefore a public outrage against the former is indeed irrational and unjustified, the latter is not.

 

[PTK]

5 minutes ago, Tommy said:

In Peter's view, criticisms / skepticisms of private pilots following stunts like this are no different from the equally negative sentiment against gun owners post mass shootings in that both are nothing but hot air hysteria. I am merely pointing out that these two vastly different categories of "incidents" share nothing in common therefore a public outrage against the former is indeed irrational and unjustified, the latter is not.

 

No. That is not Peter’s view. 

You are not authorized to speak for anyone but yourself.

 

[Tommy]

12 minutes ago, PTK said:

No. That is not Peter’s view. 

You are not authorized to speak for anyone but yourself.

 

I didn't say you've given me an authorisation or speaking on your behalf. And I certainly don't need your authorisation to speculate. 

That's how I interpreted based on what you've written. If you disagree, you are free to elaborate. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Tommy

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, PTK said:

No. That is not Peter’s view. 

You are not authorized to speak for anyone but yourself.

 

So, Peter, you haven’t been around here for awhile.

Edited June 1, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Sixstring2k]

Rest In Peace and my condolences to the pilots family.

[mike_elliott]

After speaking with Dave Matheson of AirMods, I have learned Lawrence did not have a surviving spouse. I really didn't want to ask Alice to write another "letter" so soon after Thomas Stillwell's death earlier this month

[Tony Starke]

59 minutes ago, Tommy said:

In Peter's view, criticisms / skepticisms of private pilots following stunts like this are no different from the equally negative sentiment against gun owners post mass shootings in that both are nothing but hot air hysteria. I am merely pointing out that these two vastly different categories of "incidents" share nothing in common therefore a public outrage against the former is indeed irrational and unjustified, the latter is not.

 

What I understood PTK's comment to mean is that an irresponsible pilot's action resulting in an incident is a black eye to the general aviation community even though tens of thousands of GA flights happen daily without incident. Gun owners as a whole face the same negative consequences when an irresponsible individual, whether intentional or not, mains or kills another human being or beings. Reading the comments section after news articles of plane crashes reveals the misunderstanding of many in the general public of our particular hobby. The same is true of gun crime news. In my opinion his concern is legitimate. His post in no way alluded to a conspiracy of hot air hysteria.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Tony Starke said:

What I understood PTK's comment to mean is that an irresponsible pilot's action resulting in an incident is a black eye to the general aviation community even though tens of thousands of GA flights happen daily without incident. Gun owners as a whole face the same negative consequences when an irresponsible individual, whether intentional or not, mains or kills another human being or beings. Reading the comments section after news articles of plane crashes reveals the misunderstanding of many in the general public of our particular hobby. The same is true of gun crime news. In my opinion his concern is legitimate. His post in no way alluded to a conspiracy of hot air hysteria.

There is literally no comparison here. One is a reckless joy ride - again, the exact cause is unknown - gone horribly wrong with no intention to kill. The other is a murderous rampage with full intention to kill. The outrage against the first can be defended not just statistically but also morally and ethically. The second can not. Anyway, if you failed to read the message behind Peter's direct allusion to guns - there is literally no reason to do that in the first place - let's not waste each other's time, please. Cheers. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Tommy

[Tony Starke]

4 minutes ago, Tommy said:

There is literally no comparison here. One is a reckless joy ride gone horribly wrong with no intention to kill. The other is a murderous rampage with full intention to kill. The outrage against the first can be defended not just statistically but also morally and ethically. The second can not. Anyway, if you failed to read the message behind Peter's direct allusion to guns - there is literally no need to do that in the first place - let's not waste each other's time, please. Cheers. 

Ah, I see. So you are anti-gun.

 

[aviatoreb]

Guys, I know thread drift is fun, but can we save sniping each other debating trending political issues on one of the threads which is not about the loss of an aviator in a tragic accident.  Whatever you may think of the pilot's behavior, it is still a tragedy, and please also remember that the good folks at Airmods must be devastated.  Out of respect for those who are more closely emotionally involved, and remembering that a man has died, please let's not make this thread all about you and your views on widely varying politics.

Edited June 1, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Tony Starke]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Guys, I know thread drift is fun, but can we save sniping each other debating trending political issues on one of the threads which is not about the loss of an aviator in a tragic accident.  Whatever you may think of the pilot's behavior, it is still a tragedy, and please also remember that the good folks at Airmods must be devastated.  Out of respect for those who are more closely emotionally involved, and remembering that a man has died, please let's not make this thread all about you and your views on widely varying politics.

Not about my political views, just defending a fellow aviator that was attacked for making a comparison of how we as a community are judged a lot of times by the actions of a few bad actors.

[Tommy]

 

38 minutes ago, Tony Starke said:

Not about my political views, just defending a fellow aviator that was attacked for making a comparison of how we as a community are judged a lot of times by the actions of a few bad actors.

"You are defending a fellow aviator who was using a tragic fatal incident - the exact cause of which is still unknown - to take a political swipe on gun control advocacy" There. Corrected for you.

There was absolutely no need and no reason for Peter to do that.

@aviatoreb you are right, this is not the time to get into any political debate but do we just ignore comments like Peter's or should we call them out?

Edited June 1, 2019 by Tommy

[bonal]

I suppose I should add my thoughts before this thread spins into locked down mode. Of course this is a truly sad event and thankfully no wife or kids and no one else involved I'm sure there are family and friends that will feel the loss.  I don't know how old this fellow was but I think this reminds me of my crazy youth when I was immortal and spent my time riding and racing high performance sport bikes something that is viewed by the majority as a foolish risky behavior. Back then there was no internet nor 24/7 news cycle so accidents didn't get much discussion. Now it's open for comment by millions of people and I think we can all agree that the news folks have a mostly dim view of general aviation as a useless dangerous hobby for wealthy adventure types.  It's likely this guy was just having fun unfortunately an airplane is a much more demanding vehicle than a sport bike and it ended up costing him his life.

My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and friends may he rest in peace 

[aviatoreb]

33 minutes ago, Tommy said:

 

"You are defending a fellow aviator who was using a tragic fatal incident - the exact cause of which is still unknown - to take a political swipe on gun control advocacy" There. Corrected for you.

There was absolutely no need and no reason for Peter to do that.

@aviatoreb you are right, this is not the time to get into any political debate but do we just ignore comments like Peter's or should we call them out?

Yes - exactly - we should just not respond to argument baiting on this kind of thread.  Clearly, I also have an opinion on the topic at hand, but lets respect what this thread was started to remember.  I wouldn't engage an argument over politics at a funeral either.

Edited June 1, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Tommy]

40 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yes - exactly - we should just not respond to argument baiting on this kind of thread.  Clearly, I also have an opinion on the topic at hand, but lets respect what this thread was started to remember.  I wouldn't engage an argument over politics at a funeral either.

This is where our opinions differ. I will never let that perennial old Uncle of whom we all dreaded walking right over everyone at the funeral making obscence political comments for the sake of civility and expediency let alone on a web forum talking to strangers!

Edited June 1, 2019 by Tommy

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

This is where our opinions differ. I will never let that perennial old Uncle of whom we all dreaded walking right over everyone at the funeral making obscence political comments for the sake of civility and expediency let alone on a web forum talking to strangers!

It takes two to have that shouting match at the funeral where everyone is watching it instead of listening to the expressions of remembrance.  Let the old Uncle mumble to himself and don't engage him and he won't enjoy fueling the bonfire which is his real wish.  That's my take.  I understand you have expressed opposite and I respect that.  My opinion is that by engaging the baiting when the shouting match commences we become equally part of the problem of stealing the attention from where it belongs and at times like this it belongs on the topic of the tragedy.  Anyway so that I don’t also now become the problem if I haven’t already I won’t say any more about this.

Edited June 1, 2019 by aviatoreb

[carusoam]

Let’s not get drawn in...

1) the non-aviation topics are important... they are very important, to everyone.

2) unfortunately, they work countercurrent to the way MS works.

3) In honor of everyone at MS, let’s keep the non-aviation hot topics on a different platform...

4) I can’t afford to not hear from MSers who don’t want to participate because the internet doesn’t work for them...

5) There is plenty of flexibility at MS to go off topic...

6) There is no flexibility at MS for going too far outside the lines of the community...

7) Save the insults, whether they are intentional or not. There isn’t a reason to get voted off the MS island...

I don’t write the rules, or interpret them.  I just have enough memory to report how this has happened in the past...

Let’s not repeat MS history.

Thank you.

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

Be kind whenever possible..........

It is always possible to be kind.

[PTK]

21 minutes ago, carusoam said:

the non-aviation topics are important... they are very important, to everyone.

Discussion is important. Someone made the comparison about buying firearms in Canada and hoping this doesn’t go in the way of villyfying the many for the actions of a few. The discussion went along these lines and it’s perfectly legitimate imo. Now some don’t like to hear topics as these discussed and get a bad case of hives. But I think as adults we can and should have these discussions. As adults we should take the discussion beyond the “RIP and prayers for their loved ones” level. We owe it to our passion for aviation. Those who don’t wish to talk about it don’t have to. But they certainly can’t shut down dissenting view points. This is America!

Edited June 1, 2019 by PTK

[carusoam]

Peter,

I missed you and Tommy while you were away...

The topics I outlined above, are important.  But, they detract from MS.

When this thread gets shut down, or its participants get locked out...

 

We will have lost the input of some valuable people.

The valuable people will also lose participating in the content of this thread.

 

So...

Let’s control what we write.

Maybe it is to write clearer, as a world-wide audience can be challenging to be understood by.

 

Or...

Maybe the political statement is so important to you, this is a final stand?  Going all in for this non-aviation topic on MS?

 

Either way, you will be missed...

It will be disappointing to not have you around for other conversations...

By the way... My BK Timex gave up on me yesterday in front of an audience... 

 

Please stay on topic...

Best regards,

-a-

[GDGR]

52 minutes ago, PTK said:

Discussion is important. Someone made the comparison about buying firearms in Canada and hoping this doesn’t go in the way of villyfying the many for the actions of a few. The discussion went along these lines and it’s perfectly legitimate imo. Now some don’t like to hear topics as these discussed and get a bad case of hives. But I think as adults we can and should have these discussions. As adults we should take the discussion beyond the “RIP and prayers for their loved ones” level. We owe it to our passion for aviation. Those who don’t wish to talk about it don’t have to. But they certainly can’t shut down dissenting view points. This is America!

Since I was the one that brought up the comparison, I’ll explain my point:

In Canada (sorry, can’t state what the US has), we have to take a mandatory course, apply for a PAL (Possession and Acquisition License), wait countless months after applying, then may or may not be rejected due to previous history or answers on the application. 

I completely understand that the aviation industry is already highly regulated. We see it all the time. My point was to the fact that, whether it be in this situation, or Roy Hallidays, etc., that there is going to be an investigation, which may or may not turn up mental issues, a reckless personality, or something else that would potentially have a certain individual to “have a high potential” to perform these types of manoeuvres. 

The “negative” I referred to was:

- increased insurance premiums 

- risk of losing licensing/ not being able to obtain licensing, due to having a “preconceived condition

- maybe even a “waiting period” before someone  gets into an aircraft. (I know RIDICULOUS!)

Apologies if my comment made this post go sideways. But, I see it every day. One side is offended, the other side caves and makes new rules, which in turn offends the other side. 

I get regulation. I get the fact that there’s a risk. But, where does it stop? A law was just passed in Canada where the police are now able to go into your home, and give you a breathalyzer 2 hours after you were driving. Explain to me how this is:

1- fair

2- going to even be admissible in court 

3- ever going to stand up to the “beyond a reasonable doubt” that one was intoxicated 2 hours previous ?

 

I enjoy flying. It’s something I’ve wanted to do since I was four. Finally got off my ass, finished my PPL and bought a plane last year. Any time I see something that might potentially affect my potential freedom to continue to enjoy this, it bothers me.